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 buddha wrote:
Has anyone had good success with chaos monster mash? Morty, Magnus, and a knight is only around 1300pts which leaves enough room for a demon battalion. Seems very self sufficient and powerful on paper.

I ran a monster mash with 2 Lord of Skulls and Magnus (pre-TS codex) supported by a CSM Alpha Legion Battalion. It did pretty well (and finished with time to spare), where it really failed though was when the terrain was against me since my heavy hitters couldn't get into the bottom floor (ITC doesn't allow shooting into or out of the first level) of buildings I had to rely on my Chaos Lord, Sorcerer and some scrub Cultists to dig units out of them, which was fine most of the time, but not so much against entrenched marines.

Magnus and the Sorcerer would buff the Lords and they would go to work, typically hit one with Prescience and have the Chaos Lord/Sorcerer stay close to him, Warptime on the other one and let it use Daemonforge and get the first turn charge (potentially using Daemonforge again in Fight phase). This had the added bonus of nobody really shot at Magnus much (go figure).

Diabolic Strength on the Lord of Skulls is also amazing, since the Strength works for the Gorestorm Cannon and melee attacks and the extra attack can be turned into 3 sweep attacks. I've been futzing with ways to get a Daemons detachment to support the Lord of Skulls so I can pop the Khorne strategy to let him attack again in the fight phase.

Also, Lord of Skulls does amazing work against hordes and his degradation track is a thing of beauty.

 buddha wrote:
Has anyone had good success with chaos monster mash? Morty, Magnus, and a knight is only around 1300pts which leaves enough room for a demon battalion. Seems very self sufficient and powerful on paper.

i tried it but b4 new demon dex was released and didn't do so good, too few pieces almost no screens, no easy at objectives when you face tons of obj sec troops, but it's fun to play. Maybe i would need retry with lord of skull instead a renegade knight. but i dont own it

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I've been futzing with ways to get a Daemons detachment to support the Lord of Skulls so I can pop the Khorne strategy to let him attack again in the fight phase.

Daemons FAQ made it so you can't use their stratagems on units without the <Daemon> faction keyword. The CSM FAQ was updated at the same time removing <Daemon> as a faction keyword for the LOS and Obliterators, and moving it to be a normal keyword, so there is no way the LOS will be able to use that stratagem to fight twice.

saint_red wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I've been futzing with ways to get a Daemons detachment to support the Lord of Skulls so I can pop the Khorne strategy to let him attack again in the fight phase.

Daemons FAQ made it so you can't use their stratagems on units without the <Daemon> faction keyword. The CSM FAQ was updated at the same time removing <Daemon> as a faction keyword for the LOS and Obliterators, and moving it to be a normal keyword, so there is no way the LOS will be able to use that stratagem to fight twice.

Oh yeah, thanks, I keep forgetting that. Anyhow, it was a fun (if limited) monster mash list that did pretty well.

So, Bloat-Drones. I guess with Heralds and Epidemius offering S boosts, and a mediocre WS and BS, the best option is the auto-hitting sprayers? The flesh-mower looks incredible, but I can’t help but think that the long ranged attack is more useful for finishing off damaged units and feeding Epi. Lots of attacks is fine, but a DP can do that, without a deteriorating strength to boot...

What do you think about ideal contemptor dread loadouts?

As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.

Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.

In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.

 lindsay40k wrote:
So, Bloat-Drones. I guess with Heralds and Epidemius offering S boosts, and a mediocre WS and BS, the best option is the auto-hitting sprayers? The flesh-mower looks incredible, but I can’t help but think that the long ranged attack is more useful for finishing off damaged units and feeding Epi. Lots of attacks is fine, but a DP can do that, without a deteriorating strength to boot...

Heralds and Epidemius should work with Nurgle Mutilators/Warp Talons/Possessed, although you can't get the extra bonus of the DG psychic powers on them unfortunately. The problem I really saw with Epidemius was that outside of the first step on his chart, everything else was geared towards melee units. Plague Marine melee is (in my opinion) prohibitively expensive and obviously not Daemonic and DG for some reason didn't give them an easily deployed Daemonic melee-oriented unit really. Seems to me that to really optimize Heralds/Epidemius you want 3 Detachments, Daemons, DG, Nurgle-marked CSM sporting some of the Daemonic melee troops.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
What do you think about ideal contemptor dread loadouts?

As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.

Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.

In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.

Butcher cannon is the obvious best choice IMO. And if you want a melee dreadnaught, just go for a double-fist Helbrute. Less points for equal smash.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
What do you think about ideal contemptor dread loadouts?

As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.

Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.

In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.

What Legion are you using them for? For my Death Guard, I really like 2x Butcher Cannons and Havoc Launcher, since they can move without taking a -1 to hit with their heavy weapons.

I also like 2x chainclaws with soulburners, which in addition to putting out a decent number of mortal wounds, allow the dreads to shoot while advancing into CC. If I'm trying to save points, dual combi bolters are decent anti-infantry and 28 points less each.

Whatever you do, if you're taking two CCWs, take chainclaws not dreadclaws. Adding a second chain claw costs only +10 points over a single one, but a second dreadclaw costs the full amount, due to what I assume was an oversight in Chapter Approved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vaklor4 wrote:
And if you want a melee dreadnaught, just go for a double-fist Helbrute. Less points for equal smash.

Helbrutes have a worse WS (to start) and are a lot less durable. Contemptors have 2 more wounds, a 5++ invulnerable save which improves to 4++ in melee, and have a 5+ chance of healing a wound for every model they kill in melee.

That said, a Helbrute with a fist and power scourge can put out an unholy number of attacks!

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
What do you think about ideal contemptor dread loadouts?

As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.

Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.

In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.

My dual Chain Claw and Soulburner Contemptor is often a contender for MVP in my matches.

Dactylartha wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
What do you think about ideal contemptor dread loadouts?

As cool as 2 dual CCW arms are, I feel like it's a trap trading 1 attack for significant dakka.

Butcher cannon seems like the obvious winner, but against softer targets even the heavy bolter could put in some work. Autocannon didn't get a price drop, doesn't seem worth it at all.

In-built soulburners got a little more expensive, and while swingy, are a decent source of mortal wounds.

My dual Chain Claw and Soulburner Contemptor is often a contender for MVP in my matches.

Do you drop him in a dreadclaw or run him up the board?

I play World Eaters, BTW. My thoughts were that 1 more attack in CC might not be worth losing out on shooting every turn. The soulburners, as mentioned above, at least allow a pretty damn high chance of inflicting some wounds from shooting but the range is so short that he could get blown up before he makes it across half the table. I know that can happen no matter what, but it's pretty lame when a big monster doesn't even get the chance to swing. Hence the dreadclaw option, I guess.

I LIKE the sound of dual chainfist most of all, though.

Even using a dreadclaw you are more likely to fail than make your turn 1 charge.

I think there is a place for the cc Contemptor footslogging because it has a good movement and is pretty tough. If you are running a speedy cc army then even if it dies you'll be getting other stuff into your opponent's lines in its place. Once you get it stuck in then it's going to be tough for your opponent to get rid of.

Decimators are still probably better though just because they are a fair amount cheaper while only a little less effective.

Contemptors are a ruddy terrifying fire magnet. One Chainclaw with Soulburner is a shoe-in. Butcher Cannon is a utility weapon, it can finish off a crippled vehicle or force an important unit to spend 2CP on Morale. Nice synergy with Ld attack stuff - not worth building a list around, but worth bearing in mind if you‘re taking some Raptorcide or similar. Alternatively, take the second CC - you’re not just getting the extra attack, you’re also throwing more Mortal Wounds at Land Raiders or THSS squads.

Hmm... Good points, all.

I typically run berzerkers in either Rhinos, or, as of late, dreadclaws. Now that we have daemons at our disposal I'm also warping Bloodletters into their face.

So I suppose the Contemptor could afford to hoof it.

Just throwing this in for discussion. Meta now has a lot of hordes in it. Could vehicles be an answer to tying down all these hordes and preventing them from establishing too much board control?

I was thinking, whether its a Rhino, or a Defiler (which can be under 200 points). If we charge a vehicle into a horde of anything. Then they would not be able to deploy to cover more of the board. Instead they would need to consolidate towards that vehicle.

Furthermore, by itself, it would take a long time (if ever) for a horde of troops to destroy a vehicle (even one like a Rhino). Most horde are Str 3, against T7, they would need 6s to wound.

Now, they can choose to fall back, but then they won't be able to shoot, and then your vehicle can just charge them again next turn. Just throwing this in for discussion.

Rhino pits are quite useful, I use them whenever I run my khorne army.

It's a straight forward force. 20x beserkers with axes, 3x 10 men beserker squads in rhinos. Whatever the beserkers don't attack the rhinos tie up until the beserkers can get around to it. Works well enough.

Do you drop him in a dreadclaw or run him up the board?

I play World Eaters, BTW. My thoughts were that 1 more attack in CC might not be worth losing out on shooting every turn. The soulburners, as mentioned above, at least allow a pretty damn high chance of inflicting some wounds from shooting but the range is so short that he could get blown up before he makes it across half the table. I know that can happen no matter what, but it's pretty lame when a big monster doesn't even get the chance to swing. Hence the dreadclaw option, I guess.

I LIKE the sound of dual chainfist most of all, though.

He hoofs it up the board. He's been satisfactory getting onto assault weapon range of most things i want to soften up for termies or a Warptimed DP or my Murder Sword Lord with Jump pack, or an encroaching vehicle. He doesn't usually get into melee range on turn 1,but always on turn 2. I don't mind if he's getting shot all up because he's one of my most durable units.

I play Word Bearers and Khorne Daemons and don't have any real armor to support my rhinos. I also like to keep him near a DP or M'lord for those sweet sweet rerolls of 1s. If he's neat my cultists, those chainfists are also getting their apostle's reroll misses or if he's near my zerkers he's getting their Exalted Champion's rerolled wounds or Sorcerer's delight de jure. He's a very gracious gift getter.

I also don't have a drop claw, and if I did I'd probably use that for something that can reroll charges.

Quick rules clarification. I know that Death to the False Emperor is only in the Fight phase. Prescience gives +1 to hit until the next psychic phase. Icon of Excess makes DttFE proc on a 5+. So a unit with Prescience and an Icon of Excess procs DttFE on a roll of 4+. Am I correct on this?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just throwing this in for discussion. Meta now has a lot of hordes in it. Could vehicles be an answer to tying down all these hordes and preventing them from establishing too much board control?

I was thinking, whether its a Rhino, or a Defiler (which can be under 200 points). If we charge a vehicle into a horde of anything. Then they would not be able to deploy to cover more of the board. Instead they would need to consolidate towards that vehicle.

Furthermore, by itself, it would take a long time (if ever) for a horde of troops to destroy a vehicle (even one like a Rhino). Most horde are Str 3, against T7, they would need 6s to wound.

Now, they can choose to fall back, but then they won't be able to shoot, and then your vehicle can just charge them again next turn. Just throwing this in for discussion.

Well some points here:
- They don't have to consolidate towards that vehicle, they don't have to consolidate anywhere they can just stand there in a conga line as your rhino tries to kill one of them. What you have done though is make them immune to getting shot at unless you fallback your self (which they can prob stop you doing)
- The consolidate towards the closest model, that might not actually be your rhino. A clever player will probably have already spread them out to d tricksy pile in moves towards other stuff
- They will just fall back (if its not actually now advantageous to be in CC with you now!) you might be able to charge them again if something else does not obv kill you with the pts involved that rhino would of prob be better invested taking objs a blob cant get to.

Its a def decent tactic to soak up their overwatch before hitting them with something else. Prob one for a general tactics thread... because Chaos are one of the best horde armies out there we dont want any of our anti tactics here XD

the_Jakman wrote:
Quick rules clarification. I know that Death to the False Emperor is only in the Fight phase. Prescience gives +1 to hit until the next psychic phase. Icon of Excess makes DttFE proc on a 5+. So a unit with Prescience and an Icon of Excess procs DttFE on a roll of 4+. Am I correct on this?

yep the 4 literally becomes a 5

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Could vehicles be an answer to tying down all these hordes and preventing them from establishing too much board control?

Most Hordes can deal with VEHICLES in Close combat unfortunately (Orks, Letters, Tzaangors, etc...)

I had a game a couple weeks ago against Bloodletter bombs. They just walked through my Defiler and Maulerfiend in 2 Fight phases, then proceeded mobbing up the rest of my army. ://

in any case hordes are always supported by characters or at weapons, think about 30 letters and a Korne Dp with skullreaver, they can remove any veichle.

Almost done reading though this whole thread. It seems that almost everyone is running cultists mostly as MSU with autoguns. Sometimes a large blob with autoguns and the occasional squad equipped with pistol/ccw. But only like 1 or 2 guys have bothered to upgrade to special weapons.

Don't you think MSU squads camping backfield objectives would benefit from a heavy stubber? At 4 points it allows them to actually roll some dice while camping, if it kills a single guardsman, it's made its points pack. Seems like ok investment to me.

I'm going to be infiltrating a large blob of pistol/ccw guys and using tide of traitors. A couple of flamers will mean I'm down 3-4 wounds in the squad, but the extra punch could be worth it. Especially if they're getting all up in loyalists faces, then recycling the squad. I'm not sure though.

How do you use your cultists?

The two main reasons people mostly run them without the special weapons is because 1) it requires extra thinking/time for little benefit and 2) GW no longer sells cultists with those weapons. The flamer and heavy stubber models came in the Dark Vengeance starter set from 7th edition and are no longer available. It is possible to convert them yourself but again it's not really worth your time (from a strictly gameplay perspective).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Changing topic, what types of DP are we all running? I've been using a double talons Khorne one with the Talisman of Burning Blood and I've been quite happy with it. He gets traded very easily but he'll kill stuff when he gets into combat.

the_Jakman wrote:
Almost done reading though this whole thread. It seems that almost everyone is running cultists mostly as MSU with autoguns. Sometimes a large blob with autoguns and the occasional squad equipped with pistol/ccw. But only like 1 or 2 guys have bothered to upgrade to special weapons.

Don't you think MSU squads camping backfield objectives would benefit from a heavy stubber? At 4 points it allows them to actually roll some dice while camping, if it kills a single guardsman, it's made its points pack. Seems like ok investment to me.

I'm going to be infiltrating a large blob of pistol/ccw guys and using tide of traitors. A couple of flamers will mean I'm down 3-4 wounds in the squad, but the extra punch could be worth it. Especially if they're getting all up in loyalists faces, then recycling the squad. I'm not sure though.

How do you use your cultists?

I agree with you about stubbers for msu cultists and that is essentially what I run, they arent a major threat but the extra dakka can definitely pay dividends, which is great for a unit that is so cheap and expendable. I have to say though that flamers have seemed more valuable, especially for overwatch in a large blob which in the games i have played always manage to get charged by something or multiple things.
If you are running ccw cultists and can spare the points a few flamers could easily get some wounds before you charge. If you are going to ToT them anyway sacrificing survivability for more damage seems like a good option to me.

It is becoming very common to run cultists in units of 40 with las/autoguns mark of slaanesh and alpha legion.

The idea is you set them up 9-12" from the enemy for 1cp and deep strike or have a sorcerer near by who:
casts deslightful agonies on them - now they have a 5+ fnp and are -1 to hit if over 12"
then casts prescience on them for a +1 to hit (so they now hit on 3's)
when you shoot you apply the 1cp vets of the long war strat on them (they are now +1 to wound)

you now fire 80 s3 shots hitting on a 3+ with a +1 to wound (so basically bolt guns against t4)

you then maybe spend 2cp to fire all 80 shots again at the end of the phase (they are still benefiting from both 3+ to ht and +1 to wound)

That's 160 shots which will statistically kill a predator in one turn or 17 space marines.

but ye know,,, dont do this to your friends XD

saint_red wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Changing topic, what types of DP are we all running? I've been using a double talons Khorne one with the Talisman of Burning Blood and I've been quite happy with it. He gets traded very easily but he'll kill stuff when he gets into combat.

I run a slaanesh DP with dual talons, wings, warp bolter, delightful agonies (self buffing or on my screening units) and intoxicating elixir. I usually make him my warlord too and give him the mortal wounds on a 6 trait.

I usually run bikes as a screen for my DP and buff them with delightful agonies for the extra survivability and then self cast it before he makes it into combat. Im still testing delightful agonies but so far i have really loved it, 5+ feel no pain is great this edition with all the mortal wounds and high damage weapons. It allows my screens to draw and survive more fire and then makes the DP far more difficult to kill when he makes it into combat, especially against a character.
I have also run with warptime and diabolic strength and these options have also served me well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
It is becoming very common to run cultists in units of 40 with las/autoguns mark of slaanesh and alpha legion.

The idea is you set them up 12" from the enemy and deep strike or have a sorcerer near by who:
casts deslightful agonies on them - now they have a 5+ fnp and are -1 to hit if over 12"
then casts prescience on them for a +1 to hit (so they now hit on 3's)
when you shoot you apply the 1cp vets of the long war strat on them (they are now +1 to wound)

you now fire 80 s3 shots hitting on a 3+ with a +1 to wound (so basically bolt guns against t4)

you then spend 2cp to fire all 80 shots again at the end of the phase (they are still benefiting from both 3+ to ht and +1 to wound)

That's 160 shots which will statistically kill a predator in one turn or 17 space marines.

but ye know,,, dont do this to your friends XD

Wew. Well you gotta try everything once right?

I just finished making a list to test this out.

the_Jakman wrote:
Almost done reading though this whole thread. It seems that almost everyone is running cultists mostly as MSU with autoguns. Sometimes a large blob with autoguns and the occasional squad equipped with pistol/ccw. But only like 1 or 2 guys have bothered to upgrade to special weapons.

Don't you think MSU squads camping backfield objectives would benefit from a heavy stubber? At 4 points it allows them to actually roll some dice while camping, if it kills a single guardsman, it's made its points pack. Seems like ok investment to me.

I'm going to be infiltrating a large blob of pistol/ccw guys and using tide of traitors. A couple of flamers will mean I'm down 3-4 wounds in the squad, but the extra punch could be worth it. Especially if they're getting all up in loyalists faces, then recycling the squad. I'm not sure though.

How do you use your cultists?

Well.

I’ve got lots of MSU Heavy Stubber units that I made from Skaven, Beatmen, Necromunda minis etc back when there was an Apocalypse formation that enabled you to infiltrate then turn them into Chaos Spawn. They still make appearances for screening and CP farming. Don’t run into GEQ often, but they take out a Wolf or Genestealer now and then.

I’ve gathered five loads of DV guys. I like to use a big load of gunners with my Word Bearers, deliberately exposing them to fire without endurance spells, to soak up bullets and draw chargers then ToT into the backfield. I like to use a big horde of stabby Flamers with my Death Guard. They’re a lynchpin in a Poxwalker farm.

The trick here is to make them a threat. They get Warptimed forwards, so that they can use their four Flamers on the first turn. Ideally the opponent will try to overkill them, reckoning to finish the last ten or so with Morale, whereupon I save them with Insane Bravery then ToT them and repeat, with thirty free zombies to boot. Sometimes I field them as Word Bearers, with a clearly Slaaneshi champion to use EC and really intensify their threat rating. Sometimes I field them as Death Guard, to save having to re-roll a mediocre Advance on one of their moves.

They could be interesting as Renegades, as well, able to declare a charge against some Agressors or such to really fire up the Poxwalker farm.

Optimum deployment for 40 cultist mob is with an Iron Warrior battallion detachment with a Lord with cold and bitter trait, so they are immune to morale and the opponent has to killl them 'till the last man otherwise you can recicle them with Tide of Traitors.

Also an intersting warldord is an Iron warrior DP with axe, fleshmetal exoskeleton and the trait with the 6++. If needed you can spend a CP and give another 6++, with delightful agonies is unkillable

brugner8 wrote:
Optimum deployment for 40 cultist mob is with an Iron Warrior battallion detachment with a Lord with cold and bitter trait, so they are immune to morale and the opponent has to killl them 'till the last man otherwise you can recicle them with Tide of Traitors.

Also an intersting warldord is an Iron warrior DP with axe, fleshmetal exoskeleton and the trait with the 6++. If needed you can spend a CP and give another 6++, with delightful agonies is unkillable

Whilst iron warrior cultists also seem good, I personally think alpha legion cultists are more optimum.
They are -1 to hit @12 inches and they can deploy anywhere on the table 9 inches away from an enemy for 1 cp. Deploy them with a dark apostle (1CP) and they get leadership 9 and reroll 6s in CC.
At minus 1 to hit, +1 to save, if you infiltrate them into cover (which you should), and leadership 9, they are quite hard to remove from the table and will soak up a lot of fire. And anyone who has faced a blob of 40 pitentially rapid firing cultists will know that they have to be dealt with. Also nobody likes losing models to cultists, so in my experience they do draw a lot of attention.

Additionaly if they look like they are going to be wiped out from a leadership test, all you have to do is burn 2 CP to auto pass and then use tide of traitors to earn the respect of your opponent as he happily has to deal another 40 cultists on his flank or rear.

also with dark apostole is hard keep them alive, cover or not they die fast and when you lost 10+ (pretty easy kill 10 cultists) of them you test and lost more, time ago i infiltrated in cover 36 cultists, my opponent was able to kill half of them then i losted a lot by morale, now im playing large mobs (2x40 cultists) with abbadono or IW lord/prince