Why are people saying that chaos is getting nothing...

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**ChazSexington**

Dovis wrote:
Snip

The lasguns aren't doing that much, though. It's the 2 autocannons that are doing the heavy lifting, and PMs are more of a CC unit. The PMs should just advance and chop up the nasty Guardsmen. That equation looks like this in CC, with both units (hypothetically) at full strength:

PMs:
=(6+1/6)(2/3)(2/3+1/9)(2/3)= 518/243 = 2.13 wounds

Guardsmen
=21(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)= 7/9 = 0.77 wounds

There's also Morale checks, where the Guardsmen are at a much higher risk from losing more.

At ranged combat, Death to the False Emperor and the Plague Knife re-rolls don't come into play. In CC, they do, plus they remove the autocannon wounds.

**Dovis**

ChazSexington wrote:
Dovis wrote:
Snip

The lasguns aren't doing that much, though. It's the 2 autocannons that are doing the heavy lifting, and PMs are more of a CC unit. The PMs should just advance and chop up the nasty Guardsmen. That equation looks like this in CC, with both units (hypothetically) at full strength:

PMs:
=(6+1/6)(2/3)(2/3+1/9)(2/3)= 518/243 = 2.13 wounds

Guardsmen
=21(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)= 7/9 = 0.77 wounds

There's also Morale checks, where the Guardsmen are at a much higher risk from losing more.

At ranged combat, Death to the False Emperor and the Plague Knife re-rolls don't come into play. In CC, they do, plus they remove the autocannon wounds.

True, but that's assuming they somehow come into contact and that's a huge IF

Because even if they both start 24'' from each other (which you wouldn't do if you had Autocannons) they still need to either move 2 turns or advance and for go shooting in the best case scenario

Meaning they engage at half the strength, while the guardsmen at most lost an autocannon (since knowing that CC is going to happen you'd allocate the wound first on that unit)

So that would be 2-3 Plague Marines vs 16 Guardsmen, where again - they'd have 0 chance of coming on top, though admittedly, more guardsmen would die, but if one squad gets wiped out, remember the other is close enough to rapid fire

There is no realistic situation where Plague Marines come on top of Guardsmen

**Franarok**

"There is no realistic situation where Plague Marines come on top of Guardsmen"

And that is pretty sad xD

Well I guess that with Traitor Legions book the chaos space marines were no more the worst or near the worst army.... So now GW needed to nerf them.

Also looks like on this edition they planned some kind of huge campaing of imperium vs chao. So they need the imperium to win. That explains because new primaris are better than anything we have.

No mention that the guards are cheaper than cultist, they nerfed the obliterators meanwhile centurions still are good, they give even more vehicles (because imoerium just have 498249284 more kind of vehicles....and it must be 99999999999 more xD), the new "magic" is so bland, the summoning is gone (ok old could be op...buto mg, now is **** xD), the marks are gone (because they cant allow chaos bikers were more hard to kill than loyals or us could have some versatility), possesed stil lare bad (and never wil lbe good hahaha), etc etc....

**Dovis**

Franarok wrote:
"There is no realistic situation where Plague Marines come on top of Guardsmen"

And that is pretty sad xD

Well I guess that with Traitor Legions book the chaos space marines were not the worst or near the orst codex.... So now GW needed to nerf them

Also looks like on this edition they planned some kind of huge campaing of imperium vs chao. So they need the imperium to win. That explains because new primaris are better than anything we have xD

True that

Basically it's a "Zombie Apocalypse" type of scenario, where Plague Marines are target practice dummies

Also, that's when looking at them in isolation, in a real game scenario they'd also have orders thrown at them, meaning they could each fire 4 shots in close range, so realistically Plague marines wouldn't even reach them

**SilverAlien**

That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.

**Purifier**

SilverAlien wrote:
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 2.666.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 2.666.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.

The voice of reason enters the fray.

**ChazSexington**

Dovis wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
Dovis wrote:
Snip

The lasguns aren't doing that much, though. It's the 2 autocannons that are doing the heavy lifting, and PMs are more of a CC unit. The PMs should just advance and chop up the nasty Guardsmen. That equation looks like this in CC, with both units (hypothetically) at full strength:

PMs:
=(6+1/6)(2/3)(2/3+1/9)(2/3)= 518/243 = 2.13 wounds

Guardsmen
=21(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)(2/3)= 7/9 = 0.77 wounds

There's also Morale checks, where the Guardsmen are at a much higher risk from losing more.

At ranged combat, Death to the False Emperor and the Plague Knife re-rolls don't come into play. In CC, they do, plus they remove the autocannon wounds.

True, but that's assuming they somehow come into contact and that's a huge IF

Because even if they both start 24'' from each other (which you wouldn't do if you had Autocannons) they still need to either move 2 turns or advance and for go shooting in the best case scenario

Meaning they engage at half the strength, while the guardsmen at most lost an autocannon (since knowing that CC is going to happen you'd allocate the wound first on that unit)

So that would be 2-3 Plague Marines vs 16 Guardsmen, where again - they'd have 0 chance of coming on top, though admittedly, more guardsmen would die, but if one squad gets wiped out, remember the other is close enough to rapid fire

There is no realistic situation where Plague Marines come on top of Guardsmen

In this given scenario, yes. But also, as others mention, the Plague Marines are equipped in a truly sub-par manner, whereas the IG are equipped optimally for dealing with them.

**Dovis**

Purifier wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 2.666.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 2.666.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.

The voice of reason enters the fray.

Heh, you call that voice of reason, however if you checked the weapon profiles available to Plague Marines, you'd see that paying points for something like a Blight Launcher is the most terrible choice you can make

If you did that, you'd be facing 3 squads of Guardsmen and 1 Autocannon, the Blight Launcher does multiple wounds, all irrelevant when fighting opponents with one wound. Sure you'd reliably kill 1 more guardsman per turn, but you'd have to deal with 50% more of them.

So both of you actually found an even worse loadout for the Plague Marines to bring than their default one.

As much as I like the new models, this is the worst unit in game in terms of efficiency/price ratio

So next time when you invoke such words like "voice of reason", be sure to double check the reality of the matter

**Purifier**

You're missing the point. The point is that if you only compare the wrong weapon for the job you can get any results you want, and the points don't matter. And when someone calls out that bull, it's a voice of reason. But thanks for illustrating the point by shifting out some weapons on the enemy crew to better fit your narrative.

**Dovis**

SilverAlien wrote:
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.

We do know the possible loadouts and Plague Marines lack the choice to bring heavy weapons, blight launcher having a measly 24 range and just 2 hits, doesn't make it a weapon worth it's price

Please do conceive a loadout where they can come on top of Guardsmen, blight launchers are a terrible idea

In case of Noise Marines, heh they're 25% cheaper than Plague Marines and have better weapon choices, they're nowhere near as terrible and yet, you did the math and you can see yourself - they'd be dead in 3-4 turns, while at least 1 of the 3 Guardsmen squads would survive

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifier wrote:
You're missing the point. The point is that if you only compare the wrong weapon for the job you can get any results you want, and the points don't matter. And when someone calls out that bull, it's a voice of reason. But thanks for illustrating the point by shifting out some weapons on the enemy crew to better fit your narrative.

Again, you try to dodge the fact that you didn't make research by going for an ad hominem attack, also you're IMPLYING I took the wrong weapon for the job, while none of you could offer a better one, the only alternative you guys have given was actually worse than my initial one

Facts remain:

1) Plague Marines have more limited choices of wargear
2) They do't have ANY long range weaponry

Regardless of how you build them - they are an inferior choice, arguably the worst unit in game points wise

**Dionysodorus**

SilverAlien wrote:
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.

This is not reassuring!

I don't understand the focus on absolute numbers of wounds. Both of your comparisons that seem to be intended to show how the Guardsmen can be at a disadvantage actually seem to show them holding their own. I'm not very familiar with what Chaos has, but I think you've got 5 Plague Marines in the first case and 5 Noise Marines in the second, up against 30 Guardsmen each time. So in your first example the Guardsmen would kill 20% of the Marines in one volley while the Marines only kill 9.6% of the Guardsmen. In your second example the Guardsmen kill 32% of the Noise Marines while the Noise Marines kill 18% of the Guardsmen. The Guardsmen are kicking ass despite your attempt to rig the game against them.

Now, like I said, I don't know much about Chaos and I'm not trying to defend the position that they're all-in-all underpowered now or whatever, but you seem to be trying to show that they can hold their own with these examples, when these examples really show Chaos getting whipped.

**Dovis**

Dovis wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.

We do know the possible loadouts and Plague Marines lack the choice to bring heavy weapons, blight launcher having a measly 24 range and just 2 hits, doesn't make it a weapon worth it's price

Please do conceive a loadout where they can come on top of Guardsmen, blight launchers are a terrible idea

In case of Noise Marines, heh they're 25% cheaper than Plague Marines and have better weapon choices, they're nowhere near as terrible and yet, you did the math and you can see yourself - they'd be dead in 3-4 turns, while at least 1 of the 3 Guardsmen squads would survive

Also if we're changing units around, you could take 3 Heavy bolter teams for under 120 points, meaning 9 Heavy bolters, which would do 4.45 wounds per turn, at longer range, meaning there is a good chance they'd all be dead before they even got in range

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifier wrote:
You're missing the point. The point is that if you only compare the wrong weapon for the job you can get any results you want, and the points don't matter. And when someone calls out that bull, it's a voice of reason. But thanks for illustrating the point by shifting out some weapons on the enemy crew to better fit your narrative.

Again, you try to dodge the fact that you didn't make research by going for an ad hominem attack, also you're IMPLYING I took the wrong weapon for the job, while none of you could offer a better one, the only alternative you guys have given was actually worse than my initial one

Facts remain:

1) Plague Marines have more limited choices of wargear
2) They do't have ANY long range weaponry

Regardless of how you build them - they are an inferior choice, arguably the worst unit in game points wise

**SilverAlien**

Okay guys, do some math hammer with me.

5 stock plague marines with stock deal 1.4 wounds per turn to guardsman, 2.8 in RF range. Cost: 110 points.

5 plague marines, 2 with blight launchers deal 3.6 wounds per turn to guardsman, 4.4 in rapid fire range. Cost 138 points. (Which isn't even a 25% increase in points, idk why someone claimed a 50% increase).

You are capable of seeing that the latter option is better, even if the blight launcher isn't benefitting from multiple wounds, right? It doubles out the guardsman, wounding on a 2+, rerolls 1s, and ignores armor saves. It results in almost twice as many kills at both ranges for a 25% increase in the cost of the unit. It's the better loadout which is more likely to earn points back, in part because it can threaten morale tests.

You are correct in that guard aren't a good match up for plague marines (toughness 5 won't help against str 3 is the biggest issue). That's why I pointed at noise marines, who are much better at clearing normal infantry.

**Dovis**

Dionysodorus wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
That entire scenario is silly though. You are comparing poorly outfitted plague guard with guardsman with heavy weapons. Yes the points are the same, but if you do two other similarly equipped squads, say plague marines with blight launchers vs 3 squads of guardsman with grenade launchers and a bolter on the sarge (both 138 points) you'd have the guardsman putting out around a wound per turn still, and the marines putting out 3.1111.

Or we can compare 120 points of basic guardsman to 120 points of noise marines with sonic blasters. 1.6 wounds vs 5.3 wounds a turn.

Sure the guardsmen could be getting orders, and the marines could be getting buffed by an HQ as well.

Basically the point I'm making is we don't even know what the most cost effective loadout for each unit is, picking random point values doesn't illustrate all that much truth be told.

This is not reassuring!

I don't understand the focus on absolute numbers of wounds. Both of your comparisons that seem to be intended to show how the Guardsmen can be at a disadvantage actually seem to show them holding their own. I'm not very familiar with what Chaos has, but I think you've got 5 Plague Marines in the first case and 5 Noise Marines in the second, up against 30 Guardsmen each time. So in your first example the Guardsmen would kill 20% of the Marines in one volley while the Marines only kill 9.6% of the Guardsmen. In your second example the Guardsmen kill 32% of the Noise Marines while the Noise Marines kill 18% of the Guardsmen. The Guardsmen are kicking ass despite your attempt to rig the game against them.

Now, like I said, I don't know much about Chaos and I'm not trying to defend the position that they're all-in-all underpowered now or whatever, but you seem to be trying to show that they can hold their own with these examples, when these examples really show Chaos getting whipped.

Thank you for being able to Math, it is exactly like you said

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
Okay guys, do some math hammer with me.

5 stock plague marines with stock deal 1.4 wounds per turn to guardsman, 2.8 in RF range. Cost: 110 points.

5 plague marines, 2 with blight launchers deal 3.6 wounds per turn to guardsman, 4.4 in rapid fire range. Cost 138 points. (Which isn't even a 25% increase in points, idk why someone claimed a 50% increase).

You are capable of seeing that the latter option is better, even if the blight launcher isn't benefitting from multiple wounds, right? It doubles out the guardsman, wounding on a 2+, rerolls 1s, and ignores armor saves. It's the better loadout which is more likely to earn points back, in part because it can threaten morale tests.

Latter option means a 50% increase NOT in the PM cost, but a 50% increase in he number of Guardsmen that turn up to oppose you do to more points available

So in the first scenario it's 5 stock PM vs 20 Guardsmen (2 Autocannons)

In the second it's 5 PM (2 Blight Launchers) vs 30 Guardsmen

So even if you kill more of them - there's significantly more of them there to shoot back at you

**Purifier**

Dovis wrote:

Again, you try to dodge the fact that you didn't make research by going for an ad hominem attack

Ad hominem means to attack you instead of the argument. How exactly did I attack you? I talked only about the argument. If I said "Sure, but then Dovis is known to never have a clear head when talking about statistics" then that would be an ad hominem.

**Dovis**

Purifier wrote:
Dovis wrote:

Again, you try to dodge the fact that you didn't make research by going for an ad hominem attack

Ad hominem means to attack you instead of the argument. How exactly did I attack you? I talked only about the argument. If I said "Sure, but then Dovis is known to never have a clear head when talking about statistics" then that would be an ad hominem.

You said that I missed the point, when the whole "missing the point" argument stands on the false premise that I deliberately chose an inferior loadout to illustrate a weakness when no one so far offered a better loadout

**SilverAlien**

Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.

I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)

**Dovis**

SilverAlien wrote:
Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.

I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)

True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines

Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges

The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency

At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG

So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

SilverAlien wrote:Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.

I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)

Its a non issue. Play the scenario like a normal person would that has some understanding of the game. Blight launchers have a 24" range the Plague marines don't gain by getting closer and why would you position yourself so you can get shot at by both guardsman units? Why would you not stand in cover 24" away and chunk out 3-4 guys a turn while losing MAYBE 1 guy a turn, most of the guardsman would be dead before you got to the last Plague Marine.

Dovis wrote:True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines

Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges

The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency

At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG

So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok

Bring the Plague Bell guy and they can advance every turn rolling 2 dice taking the highest. They get +1 to hit on infantry units with more then 10 models, add to their unit every time they kill and infantry model, and are fearless. The only thing I don't understand is why they have a 7+ save

**Dovis**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.

I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)

Its a non issue. Play the scenario like a normal person would that has some understanding of the game. Blight launchers have a 24" range the Plague marines don't gain by getting closer and why would you position yourself so you can get shot at by both guardsman units? Why would you not stand in cover 24" away and chunk out 3-4 guys a turn while losing MAYBE 1 guy a turn, most of the guardsman would be dead before you got to the last Plague Marine.

Dovis wrote:True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines

Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges

The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency

At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG

So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok

Bring the Plague Bell guy and they can advance every turn rolling 2 dice taking the highest. They get +1 to hit on infantry units with more then 10 models, add to their unit every time they kill and infantry model, and are fearless. The only thing I don't understand is why they have a 7+ save

You're somehow assuming Plague Marines have any choice of positioning in your scenario, they don't, for 138 Points the PM with Blight Launchers cost, the IG can take 30 troops + 2 Mortars and a Heavy Bolter, they have the range advantage and 1 Plague Marine will be dead till they even get in the 24"

So sure, don't close the range, it will work out just fine...

No, the reality is that the IG will inevitably be the ones with a better position in this matchup

As for the Pox Walkers, all you described would cost ~200 points, for a semi decent melee only bullet sponge, heh you can get 3 Kastelan Robots, who can make 108 shot every turn if they're stationary, 108 S5-6 shots, let that sink in, that's what you can bring for the same amount as those pathetic zombies

Aside from them looking really cool and jolly with their wide smiles, there is little to no reason to take them

I did preorder the set, but just cause of the aesthetics, my current Death Guard list cannot get improved by anything in the set, current "pox walkers" included, who cost just 70 points now and you can resurrect D3 of them every turn, they walk 6" and are T4 without Typhus

**SilverAlien**

Dovis wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.

I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)

True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines

Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges

The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency

At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG

So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok

Eh... the bloat drone is only good in the specific context of killing guardsman. Otherwise it's absurdly expensive for what amounts to two flamers (it's 158 points with equipment). Look at what 2 crisis battlesuits with flamers and advanced targeting can do, with a third suit with a stimulant injector to soak wounds (which only comes to 18 points more than this thing)

Oh and it is also good at killing DG, because once again toughness 5 is wasted points until it takes a good chunk of damage. Honestly toughness 5 vs 4 is so rarely useful now it's not worth anything like the price they put on it. Which is very sad.

**Dovis**

SilverAlien wrote:
Dovis wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:
Which was factored in, you will still kill a far greater number and make a bigger dent in the points, making it a more efficient loadout. Yes it's generally not a great match up regardless, but the example you gave was the plague marines having a bad loadout.a 25% increase in points for a 100% increase in lethality is almost always a good choice.

I'm basically saying don't exaggerate the problem. Yes a problem exists (and tbh it's mostly with guard, noise marines compare favorably to their equivalents in the Imperial SM index)

True, taking the blight launchers should still be the default choice, If one is to take the Plague Marines

Poxwalkers are also no less horrible, 4 move, no shooting and a hit on 5+ and a COST OF 6, oh my god, what were they thinking when pricing them, like what is their role, they don't even work as cheap bullet sponges

The Fetid-Bload Drone is the least bad in terms of cost and efficiency

At least Typhus got buffed real good and his price slashed, that's the only good thing in 8th ed DG

So in context of the rest of DG, Plague Marines might seem ok

Eh... the bloat drone is only good in the specific context of killing guardsman. Otherwise it's absurdly expensive for what amounts to two flamers (it's 158 points with equipment). Look at what 2 crisis battlesuits with flamers and advanced targeting can do, with a third suit with a stimulant injector to soak wounds (which only comes to 18 points more than this thing)

Oh and it is also good at killing DG, because once again toughness 5 is wasted points until it takes a good chunk of damage. Honestly toughness 5 vs 4 is so rarely useful now it's not worth anything like the price they put on it. Which is very sad.

Exactly, T5 means very little, the would Primaris marines get is so much better than the T5 Plague marines get

I said that Drone is least terrible new DG units have to offer, doesn't mean it's any good when compared to what else the points can buy. You can bring 2 Kastelan Robots and a 3 Mortars for 157 points, which is a better deal regardless of what you're fighting

**Franarok**

That is the problem. They keep the T5 and the feel no pain. but now that means less than before.

They also quit the boltguns (other antilore nerf) and gave a expensive price in points. and thinks (now not sure) they lost the defensive nades....but not sure and cant check the file.

Soooooooooo the intercessors are cheaper in points, are more hard to kill because the extra wound, have better weapons (and can take other weapons beside bolt rifle too), can be part of any chapter (meanwhile PM jsut death guard) and are more fast..... So yeah, the basic primaris marine is better than the new plague marine (the new cool toy for caos to face new marines if you read GW)..............

Perfect GW...perfect xD

Well, primaris are a new line of marines, GW needs sell them haha

**gummyofallbears**

Franarok wrote:
That is the problem. They keep the T5 and the feel no pain. but now that means less than before.

They also quit the boltguns (other antilore nerf) and gave a expensive price in points. and thinks (now not sure) they lost the defensive nades....but not sure and cant check the file.

Soooooooooo the intercessors are cheaper in points, are more hard to kill because the extra wound, have better weapons (and can take other weapons beside bolt rifle too), can be part of any chapter (meanwhile PM jsut death guard) and are more fast..... So yeah, the basic primaris marine is better than the new plague marine (the new cool toy for caos to face new marines if you read GW)..............

Perfect GW...perfect xD

Well, primaris are a new line of marines, GW needs sell them haha

Intercessor marines cannot take other weapons, they have their standard boltrifle.

And primaris marines aren't very good, keep that in mind, they surely aren't overpowered.

**BrianDavion**

gummyofallbears wrote:
Franarok wrote:
That is the problem. They keep the T5 and the feel no pain. but now that means less than before.

They also quit the boltguns (other antilore nerf) and gave a expensive price in points. and thinks (now not sure) they lost the defensive nades....but not sure and cant check the file.

Soooooooooo the intercessors are cheaper in points, are more hard to kill because the extra wound, have better weapons (and can take other weapons beside bolt rifle too), can be part of any chapter (meanwhile PM jsut death guard) and are more fast..... So yeah, the basic primaris marine is better than the new plague marine (the new cool toy for caos to face new marines if you read GW)..............

Perfect GW...perfect xD

Well, primaris are a new line of marines, GW needs sell them haha

Intercessor marines cannot take other weapons, they have their standard boltrifle.

And primaris marines aren't very good, keep that in mind, they surely aren't overpowered.

IMHO it's proably not right to compare plague marines to primaris Marines anyway, both are an elite upgrade of the standard space marine type, but both should be distinct and differant.

**Grimmor**

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO it's proably not right to compare plague marines to primaris Marines anyway, both are an elite upgrade of the standard space marine type, but both should be distinct and differant.

Why wouldnt we compare them? They are both Elite, upgraded (for durability) versions of their factions base unit, and when you compare the two, the Intercessor pulls ahead. This could be solved by making Plague Marines cheaper, cuz T5 is nowhere near worth what it was, and as such shouldnt cost as much.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Dovis wrote:
You're somehow assuming Plague Marines have any choice of positioning in your scenario, they don't, for 138 Points the PM with Blight Launchers cost, the IG can take 30 troops + 2 Mortars and a Heavy Bolter, they have the range advantage and 1 Plague Marine will be dead till they even get in the 24"

So sure, don't close the range, it will work out just fine...

I'm not assuming, I'm going off your own parameters. The IG units have heavy weapons, heavy weapons restrict movement, Plague Marines don't have restricted movement, therefore Plague Marine will have the advantage of being able to more freely. They would also be able to benefit from cover much more easily, which is some thing you totally ignored.

Dovis wrote:
No, the reality is that the IG will inevitably be the ones with a better position in this matchup

Because you said and for no other reason.

Dovis wrote:
As for the Pox Walkers, all you described would cost ~200 points, for a semi decent melee only bullet sponge, heh you can get 3 Kastelan Robots, who can make 108 shot every turn if they're stationary, 108 S5-6 shots, let that sink in, that's what you can bring for the same amount as those pathetic zombies

What the hell? Kastelan Robots are 65 base the most shots your going to get with them is 24 a turn and half of those would have a 12" range, and they cant move to do that, but again the Plague Marines wouldn't have the advantage of free mobility.

Edit: Okay I see what you did you counted the 3D6 as 6s (never mind the less then 1% chance of that happening) on three 12" weapons which would cost 65+63 128 points for a single model. Which you couldnt get two for 200 points. But even if you could maybe shoot them with your S6 ap-2 shots that you will have. I mean not like 3 units shooting just Blight Launchers could kill him in 1 turn.

Dovis wrote:
Aside from them looking really cool and jolly with their wide smiles, there is little to no reason to take them

Try 2 bell guys/ 2 Chaos lords, Plauge Marines with as many Assualt Weapons as you can stick on them you will be able to advance every turn and still shoot with about a 61% hit rate.

**Dovis**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Dovis wrote:
You're somehow assuming Plague Marines have any choice of positioning in your scenario, they don't, for 138 Points the PM with Blight Launchers cost, the IG can take 30 troops + 2 Mortars and a Heavy Bolter, they have the range advantage and 1 Plague Marine will be dead till they even get in the 24"

So sure, don't close the range, it will work out just fine...

I'm not assuming, I'm going off your own parameters. The IG units have heavy weapons, heavy weapons restrict movement, Plague Marines don't have restricted movement, therefore Plague Marine will have the advantage of being able to more freely. They would also be able to benefit from cover much more easily, which is some thing you totally ignored.

Dovis wrote:
No, the reality is that the IG will inevitably be the ones with a better position in this matchup

Because you said and for no other reason.

Dovis wrote:
As for the Pox Walkers, all you described would cost ~200 points, for a semi decent melee only bullet sponge, heh you can get 3 Kastelan Robots, who can make 108 shot every turn if they're stationary, 108 S5-6 shots, let that sink in, that's what you can bring for the same amount as those pathetic zombies

What the hell? Kastelan Robots are 65 base the most shots your going to get with them is 24 a turn and half of those would have a 12" range, and they cant move to do that, but again the Plague Marines wouldn't have the advantage of free mobility.

Edit: Okay I see what you did you counted the 3D6 as 6s (never mind the less then 1% chance of that happening) on three 12" weapons which would cost 65+63 128 points for a single model. Which you couldnt get two for 200 points. But even if you could maybe shoot them with your S6 ap-2 shots that you will have. I mean not like 3 units shooting just Blight Launchers could kill him in 1 turn.

Dovis wrote:
Aside from them looking really cool and jolly with their wide smiles, there is little to no reason to take them

Try 2 bell guys/ 2 Chaos lords, Plauge Marines with as many Assualt Weapons as you can stick on them you will be able to advance every turn and still shoot with about a 61% hit rate.

How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"

You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:

I'd hide my IG behind cover, so they're invisible and you cannot return fire, you'd have to maneuver around cover to even see them, and when you would, all 3 units would rapid fire you, there is a good chance no more than 3-5 IG would die if we did this strategically.

All earlier posts were just math handling and math wise IG dominates, if you include terrain and range, they dominate even more

The situation where you described is simply impossible, because if you hide behind cover - so can IG and they can pepper you with Mortars till you get tired, they don't care, you're not a threat at 48" range

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Dovis wrote:
How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"

I get that what I dont get is how you think they will kill any Plague Marines like that.

Dovis wrote:
You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:

Or PM bound from cover to cover while out of range cause you can advance giving you between a 7 and 8 inch move per turn on average which means on the 4th turn the PM could move regular and be within 24", but the IG would be in range of Lasguns at that point. So 3 turns of AC firing will net you 0 kills and 3 turns of Mortar fire nets you 0 kills since the PM have a much better save cause your not an idiot charging an enemy line avoiding cover the whole time. So now PM fire 2.6 rounds to 3 so I'm going with that to keep this simple. 3 hits with Blight Launchers 4 hits with bolters, Blight Launcher Wound guardsman on 2s AND reroll 1s so 3 wounds from Blight Launchers, Guardsman get a 6+ save which amounts to about a .33 chance at getting 1 save so uncommon. Bolters Fire 3 shots, hit with 2, wound with 1, but we will save the IG save it. So the IG lost 3 guys roll a Battle shock test and lose no more. IG shoots now the withering fire of Lasguns which does a total of .16 wounds, oh, that's not going to do much and with the .17 from the auto-cannon AND the .14 from the mortars your not looking good it would take between 3-4 turns to kill 1 guy on average in the mean time your losing on average 3 models a turn. Which means...you would lose 3 models and kill all 3 units of Guardsman.

**Dovis**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Dovis wrote:
How are you not getting that a unit with 48" range will be the one to hit sooner than the one with 24"

I get that what I dont get is how you think they will kill any Plague Marines like that.

Dovis wrote:
You can maneuver however you like, but if you are outranged, you either stay in your cover and get withered down by long range fire or you try to get into range. Who cares that the IG is wielding heavy weapons - they don't have to move, they are already in place to shoot the Plague Marines, they don't even have to be visible to fire the mortars, if you want to analize how this would go in a real serious matchup:

Or PM bound from cover to cover while out of range cause you can advance giving you between a 7 and 8 inch move per turn on average which means on the 4th turn the PM could move regular and be within 24", but the IG would be in range of Lasguns at that point. So 3 turns of AC firing will net you 0 kills and 3 turns of Mortar fire nets you 0 kills since the PM have a much better save cause your not an idiot charging an enemy line avoiding cover the whole time. So now PM fire 2.6 rounds to 3 so I'm going with that to keep this simple. 3 hits with Blight Launchers 4 hits with bolters, Blight Launcher Wound guardsman on 2s AND reroll 1s so 3 wounds from Blight Launchers, Guardsman get a 6+ save which amounts to about a .33 chance at getting 1 save so uncommon. Bolters Fire 3 shots, hit with 2, wound with 1, but we will save the IG save it. So the IG lost 3 guys roll a Battle shock test and lose no more. IG shoots now the withering fire of Lasguns which does a total of .16 wounds, oh, that's not going to do much and with the .17 from the auto-cannon AND the .14 from the mortars your not looking good it would take between 3-4 turns to kill 1 guy on average in the mean time your losing on average 3 models a turn. Which means...you would lose 3 models and kill all 3 units of Guardsman.

=36*0.5*0.33*0.33*0.66

^ That's how much mortars do, till PM get in range (36 as in I took the statistic average of 4 shots per mortar on a D6)

So 1.29 PM die till they get in range, also if the map is full of cover like you described, it means that upon being sighted, the IG can be placed to be in rapid fire range, basically the would begin with only 2-3 PM vs 30 IG