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 Ketara wrote:
Guilliman is Emperor by proxy. He appoints the highest positions or not at his own whim. New Chapters are created by his sole discretion. He gives the order, and suddenly fifty planetary governors who have ruled their respective worlds for 3,000 years by past decree from the Lords of Terra find they're now subordinate to some random Ultramarine. He's literally turned around and said that the Codex Astartes is no longer fit for purpose and he's mid-way through a new edition (Codex Imperialis, I think it was), and every space marine will have to follow that instead when he's done. He orders the Martians about, overrides the Inquisition by pulling people out of their cells, throws out Lords of Terra who he thinks aren't up to the job.

See, this is exactly what I hoping for with Guilliman coming in an taking charge - things happen, and the draconian bureaucracy of the Imperium is getting shook up, with Inquisitors getting overruled on what they want to do.

I like the grim-dark as much as anyone, but it's refreshing to see something good and different come out of the Imperium. I am keenly interested on what will come next.

 Ketara wrote:
If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.

That is exactly what I'm hoping for.

Unremembered Empire has a pretty good setup for this exact situation.

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Guilliman is Emperor by proxy. He appoints the highest positions or not at his own whim. New Chapters are created by his sole discretion. He gives the order, and suddenly fifty planetary governors who have ruled their respective worlds for 3,000 years by past decree from the Lords of Terra find they're now subordinate to some random Ultramarine. He's literally turned around and said that the Codex Astartes is no longer fit for purpose and he's mid-way through a new edition (Codex Imperialis, I think it was), and every space marine will have to follow that instead when he's done. He orders the Martians about, overrides the Inquisition by pulling people out of their cells, throws out Lords of Terra who he thinks aren't up to the job.

See, this is exactly what I hoping for with Guilliman coming in an taking charge - things happen, and the draconian bureaucracy of the Imperium is getting shook up, with Inquisitors getting overruled on what they want to do.

I like the grim-dark as much as anyone, but it's refreshing to see something good and different come out of the Imperium. I am keenly interested on what will come next.

It all hinges on Cawl though. Cawl is the one who has provided Guilliman with most of his new toys. I have no doubt he backs Guilliman right now because he sees Guilliman as his best bet for sneaking up the Imperial Hierarchy. The Martians would never listen to him without Guilliman's backing, he's an outcast. So he pressures Guilliman to give him a recognised position, to set him up a power base within the Imperium. The question is, what will he do when he gets it? Or indeed, if he doesn't get it?

If Cawl gets in, Imperial science may well suddenly do a U-turn, and begin making advances again. But Cawl's personal motivations are really key as to whether that will be a good or bad thing.


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 Asherian Command wrote:


Or hell any of the other Loyalist Primarchs.

I think the Khan would be pretty cool with Guilliman running logistics whilst he hangs out on battlefields. He's not the type to play at house, or begrudge someone skilled at it doing it. Vulkan would probably be reasonably okay with it as well, much more like Sanguinius. Dorn, Russ, or the Lion however, would likely cause waves of varying levels.

Christ knows what Corax would make of it all.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.

That is exactly what I'm hoping for.

Unremembered Empire has a pretty good setup for this exact situation.

Urghh hate the Lion (well at least as depicted in the HH novels - such a complete and utter dick) - the only Primarch I hoped would not come back. other than that - really intrigued by all the stuff everyone has said about it so far.

I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs

I take it no mention of the Eldar either

 Mr Morden wrote:

I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs

I doubt it will be as basic as a pissing contest between two Primarchs but more of a confrontation between the old order and the new order, each headed by a Primarch. It would be interesting to see how that went and where each group's loyalty would lie.

EDIT: About the Lion being a dick. I like it, and not just because I play Dark Angels. Dick characters make things interesting imo.

 Ketara wrote:


Ave Imperator, Roboute Guilliman. Imperium Secundus has already risen.

So this is Imperium Tertius

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Very interesting.

This leaves me ever more tentatively hoping that they are indeed setting up a new civil war.

It wasn't a civil war but Arch Warhammer in a recent video had an idea I liked were the giant split in space caused the technology on the two sides in the imperium to go different directions with the side with Terra advancing thanks to papa smurf and cawl and the other staying relatively as is creating a cultural divide that added with say a primarch taking over in the dark imperium could set up a conflict between the two.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs

I doubt it will be as basic as a pissing contest between two Primarchs but more of a confrontation between the old order and the new order, each headed by a Primarch. It would be interesting to see how that went and where each group's loyalty would lie.
.

I don't think the question is along the lines of what the Lion thinks about it all if he does make a comeback. There's 10,000 years of slow decline to show that the established methods aren't working. There's no issue now of Guilliman betraying their father to set himself up, heck, their father's a schizophrenic stationary semi-sentient mass of roiling psychic energy. It's pretty apparent that he's not making a comeback any time soon. What would actually lead the Lion to conflict with his brother?

The only real issues I can forsee really would ultimately derive from a pissing match. The Lion says Cawl should be Fabricator-General, Guilliman says he shouldn't. Guilliman wants to break up the Ordo Malleus, the Lion says he shouldn't. Etc, etc. If both have equal authority, then they will have to come terms in some way or risk splitting the Imperium purely from divided chains of command. There's no Sanguinius to mediate and give an ultimate decision this time around. They need a third Primarch to keep the peace and give a deciding vote.

Doubtless that's where we'd see Russ or Khan make a comeback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Ketara wrote:


Ave Imperator, Roboute Guilliman. Imperium Secundus has already risen.

So this is Imperium Tertius

I regard the last one as Imperium Secundus Incipit Prologus actually.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Or hell any of the other Loyalist Primarchs.

Rumour has it that Russ will be the next Loyalist Primarch to return. If so, it will be interesting to see what he makes of it all. The HH fluff has been sketchy on him and there seems to have been little interaction between him and other Primarchs. I doubt he will be any happier about the state of the Imperium than Roboute but I don't see him challenging him for control (the Lion might though). More likely Russ will want to be on the front lines hitting stuff which would free up Roboute for civil admin.

 Ketara wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs

I doubt it will be as basic as a pissing contest between two Primarchs but more of a confrontation between the old order and the new order, each headed by a Primarch. It would be interesting to see how that went and where each group's loyalty would lie.
.

I don't think the question is along the lines of what the Lion thinks about it all if he does make a comeback. There's 10,000 years of slow decline to show that the established methods aren't working. There's no issue now of Guilliman betraying their father to set himself up, heck, their father's a schizophrenic stationary semi-sentient mass of roiling psychic energy. It's pretty apparent that he's not making a comeback any time soon. What would actually lead the Lion to conflict with his brother?

The only real issues I can forsee really would ultimately derive from a pissing match. The Lion says Cawl should be Fabricator-General, Guilliman says he shouldn't. Guilliman wants to break up the Ordo Malleus, the Lion says he shouldn't. Etc, etc. If both have equal authority, then they will have to come terms in some way or risk splitting the Imperium purely from divided chains of command. There's no Sanguinius to mediate and give an ultimate decision this time around. They need a third Primarch to keep the peace and give a deciding vote.

Doubtless that's where we'd see Russ or Khan make a comeback.

Well they could play The Lion as being far too loyal to the point of delusion: not willing to admit that big E's just a clusterfeth of psychic energy and that he can't be saved. I don't see that as being too farfetched.

However it is more likely that they will go the way you two are saying as that will no doubt allow them to easily insert Russ and the Khan so they can capitalize on creating the models. This of course will be followed by a Free For all TLC match with Russ and Jagatai before finally going for the the big Royal Rumble match vs the (by now also out) 4 god-aligned primarchs. xD

Now those are some interesting developments.

Remember, the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't technically subservient to the Imperium like the Ecclessiarchy or similar. Historically and diplomatically it's closer to a sister-empire that exists in symbiosis with the rest of the Imperium.

Cawl appealing to Guilliman to 'instate' him as the Fabricator-General of Mars speaks to Cawl's ambitiousness and outcast/radical nature. That's the equivalent of asking Germany to 'instate' someone to the leadership of France, through their ties with the EU. I'm sure Guilliman has the political clout to pull it off, but it would cause massive ructions in the Ad Mech as it's basically their sister-empire and allies meddling in their direct hierarchy.

As for another Primarch coming back as a foil to Guilliman, the reason I would want it to be the Lion is precisely because he's a bit of a dick and would clash with Guilliman. It was the Lion who caught Guilliman empire-building the first time, and he would be furious to see him doing it again. Cue some really neat intra-imperial tensions.

Alas, Khan would be tedious because they'd actually work happily as a team. Guilliman doing the administration, Khan doing the chopping. Any narrative tension would feel forced and manufactured. The point of another Primarch coming back isn't so the Imperium benefits from it, but to cause tension.

I would, however, agree that the best way to do narrative tension is via the various factions of the Imperium adjusting to the changes. Tons of opportunity there, and it'd feel a lot less 'HeroHammer' if it's them doing the conflict rather than post-human hero dudes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: How about this for a list of things the Lion has to be suspicious of Guilliman

1. He caught him Empire-building before when he should have been racing to defend Terra. Every chance he would see this as another power-grab.
2. Guilliman's been brought back through the help of xenos warp-magic. It's a little pot-kettle-black, but if his agents discover that he's not going to be happy. At least someone in the Imperium should be questioning that.
3. Guilliman's been working with Cypher...

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:


Well they could play The Lion as being far too loyal to the point of delusion: not willing to admit that big E's just a clusterfeth of psychic energy and that he can't be saved. I don't see that as being too farfetched.

However it is more likely that they will go the way you two are saying as that will no doubt allow them to easily insert Russ and the Khan so they can capitalize on creating the models. This of course will be followed by a Free For all TLC match with Russ and Jagatai before finally going for the the big Royal Rumble match vs the (by now also out) 4 god-aligned primarchs. xD

Well, we're seeing Morty make a comeback on the Chaos side shortly, no doubt. Since we've had Magnus, he'll likely be followed by either Angron or Fulgrim, and they'll want a third Loyalist Primarch to keep the balance. My bet is on Russ, to be honest. The cynic in me says that Corax and Khan aren't popular enough, and Dorn/Vulkan don't have an entire model range for their chapters to push sales for.

 Ketara wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:


Well they could play The Lion as being far too loyal to the point of delusion: not willing to admit that big E's just a clusterfeth of psychic energy and that he can't be saved. I don't see that as being too farfetched.

However it is more likely that they will go the way you two are saying as that will no doubt allow them to easily insert Russ and the Khan so they can capitalize on creating the models. This of course will be followed by a Free For all TLC match with Russ and Jagatai before finally going for the the big Royal Rumble match vs the (by now also out) 4 god-aligned primarchs. xD

Well, we're seeing Morty make a comeback on the Chaos side shortly, no doubt. Since we've had Magnus, he'll likely be followed by either Angron or Fulgrim, and they'll want a third Loyalist Primarch to keep the balance. My bet is on Russ, to be honest. The cynic in me says that Corax and Khan aren't popular enough, and Dorn/Vulkan don't have an entire model range for their chapters to push sales for.

That would be the logical option. I'm thinking (this is pure speculation, of course) the primarch launch line could be something alike Magnus and Roboute first, followed by Mortarion and the Lion (which may coincide with the release of his 30k model, which would KILL my wallet, btw). Then it's likely to be Angron and Russ (I can already see a rematch of the Night of the Wolf) and finally Fulgrim and Vulkan.

Now... why do I say Vulkan? He's been getting a decent chunk of attention in 40k as of late, especially combined with Guilliman and the Lion, while the others... not really.

That will then free up the Khan and Corax to pop up whenever they decide to add Lorgar and Perturabo.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Now those are some interesting developments.

Remember, the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't technically subservient to the Imperium like the Ecclessiarchy or similar. Historically and diplomatically it's closer to a sister-empire that exists in symbiosis with the rest of the Imperium.

Cawl appealing to Guilliman to 'instate' him as the Fabricator-General of Mars speaks to Cawl's ambitiousness and outcast/radical nature. That's the equivalent of asking Germany to 'instate' someone to the leadership of France, through their ties with the EU. I'm sure Guilliman has the political clout to pull it off, but it would cause massive ructions in the Ad Mech as it's basically their sister-empire and allies meddling in their direct hierarchy.

As for another Primarch coming back as a foil to Guilliman, the reason I would want it to be the Lion is precisely because he's a bit of a dick and would clash with Guilliman. It was the Lion who caught Guilliman empire-building the first time, and he would be furious to see him doing it again. Cue some really neat intra-imperial tensions.

Alas, Khan would be tedious because they'd actually work happily as a team. Guilliman doing the administration, Khan doing the chopping. Any narrative tension would feel forced and manufactured. The point of another Primarch coming back isn't so the Imperium benefits from it, but to cause tension.

I would, however, agree that the best way to do narrative tension is via the various factions of the Imperium adjusting to the changes. Tons of opportunity there, and it'd feel a lot less 'HeroHammer' if it's them doing the conflict rather than post-human hero dudes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: How about this for a list of things the Lion has to be suspicious of Guilliman

1. He caught him Empire-building before when he should have been racing to defend Terra. Every chance he would see this as another power-grab.
2. Guilliman's been brought back through the help of xenos warp-magic. It's a little pot-kettle-black, but if his agents discover that he's not going to be happy. At least someone in the Imperium should be questioning that.
3. Guilliman's been working with Cypher...

yeah Gulliman can't meddle too much with the admech, he proably could replace the Fabricator General but it'd not exactly be an easy task and he'd burn a lot of "political capital" doing it, (too much) Cawl thinks he can/should do it because Cawl proably doesn't care if it absolutely Feths Gulliman up. he gets what he wants.

as for the Lion returning, we dunno the exact timeline of the Lion's dissapperance yet. if Gulliman was declared the head of the council oif Terra BEFORE he left to Caliban (which does seem to be the case)((( chances are the Lion's not likely to take too many issues. with it, because in that regard he'd return to the status quo.

Guilliam needs allies in politics and so far the Admech is the only one that might be it. Guilliam needs an army and state to control because he is dealing with other people that have their own armies and states.

BrianDavion wrote:
actually Gulliman ISN'T nesscarily carrying on like before. even he's finding his faith tested. n many ways his entire world view has been under assault. before he viewed the Emperor as "his father, and just a man" he's realizing now his relationship with the Emperor was differant (more a favored tool then a father son) he's also beginning to, even though he resists it on an intellectual level, wonder if perhaps his father is indeed a god. It's really neat to see, especially as in the Horus Heresy series I don't think we've ever seen any of the Primarchs wrestling with this level of well.. DOUBT, regreat and confusion.

A lotta people tend to think the whole Gulliman return thing, and the Primaris Marines, brings too much noblebright into the grimdark, but having read the book I think they really managed to make it work. Now that we've had our first taste, I'm excited for future novels.

They need to stop pushing this "The emperor never cared" line. It turns the emperor from a great man with tragic, but very human flaws, into simply a stupid psycho. The Horus Heresy doesn't make nearly as much sense if the emperor simply saw the primarchs as tools to use and discard at will. Ie he made mistakes out of emotion verse him just being dumb. That's the problem with an emotionless schemer. Any time they're wrong, it's because they were stupid.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs

I doubt it will be as basic as a pissing contest between two Primarchs but more of a confrontation between the old order and the new order, each headed by a Primarch. It would be interesting to see how that went and where each group's loyalty would lie.
.

I don't think the question is along the lines of what the Lion thinks about it all if he does make a comeback. There's 10,000 years of slow decline to show that the established methods aren't working. There's no issue now of Guilliman betraying their father to set himself up, heck, their father's a schizophrenic stationary semi-sentient mass of roiling psychic energy. It's pretty apparent that he's not making a comeback any time soon. What would actually lead the Lion to conflict with his brother?

The only real issues I can forsee really would ultimately derive from a pissing match. The Lion says Cawl should be Fabricator-General, Guilliman says he shouldn't. Guilliman wants to break up the Ordo Malleus, the Lion says he shouldn't. Etc, etc. If both have equal authority, then they will have to come terms in some way or risk splitting the Imperium purely from divided chains of command. There's no Sanguinius to mediate and give an ultimate decision this time around. They need a third Primarch to keep the peace and give a deciding vote.

Doubtless that's where we'd see Russ or Khan make a comeback.

Well they could play The Lion as being far too loyal to the point of delusion: not willing to admit that big E's just a clusterfeth of psychic energy and that he can't be saved. I don't see that as being too farfetched.

However it is more likely that they will go the way you two are saying as that will no doubt allow them to easily insert Russ and the Khan so they can capitalize on creating the models. This of course will be followed by a Free For all TLC match with Russ and Jagatai before finally going for the the big Royal Rumble match vs the (by now also out) 4 god-aligned primarchs. xD

The HH books made me wonder if the Lion was imperial because he was loyal to the emperor, or because he felt slighted by Horus becoming warmaster, and fought Horus to prove himself the superior primarch. In any case his return would probably make Robby G's job harder. Also could they be setting Mortarion up for redemption? It's hard to think of which of the traitor primarch could be redeemed, but Mortarion has a hard luck story as opposed to many of the others flamboyant descent into chaos (Fulgrim and Lorgar I'm looking at you). It would have to be him or magnus.

As for which loyalist goes traitor, there seems only one good option, Lion El'Johnson, but they have surprised us before.

none of the traitor primarchs are redeemable, after you become a Deamon prince, you're not really possiable to redeemas hyou're basicly made up of a chaos god

BrianDavion wrote:
none of the traitor primarchs are redeemable, after you become a Deamon prince, you're not really possiable to redeemas hyou're basicly made up of a chaos god

What about Alpharius, hm?

 chalkobob wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I'm eagerly awaiting Cawl to have a secret connection to the Dark Mechanicus, or even the Dragon itself. Would be a nice sudden upset to all the (seemingly) easy gains the side of Good has gained with the new setting.

I doubt very much that'll be the case, but at the same time, yeah Gulliman's definatly made a bit of a deal with the devil here.

I'm doubtful too, but I would like to see more intrigue among the heroes, and the return of the dragon sect of mars being relevant again. It would, if anything, give a very understandable reason for Cawl being so radical and secretive.

Why would you want the thing that if taken literally robs the Mechanicus of their agency and thus their narrative of any meaning to be dredged up again to also rob Cawl of any agency? The point of the Mechanicus was supposed to be to illustrate how human nature and human failings can corrupt any kind of progress, technological as well as social and spiritual. Dumping a C'tan into the mix wasn't about the Mechanicus, it was about making Da Emprah look overwrought-guitar-solo-awesome for beating up a big nasty baddie as part of the overcompensating CREEEEEEED manipulations introduced during the HH novel series.

The Mechanicus have a better story when their present state is the result of choices made freely by flawed humans, and the same would be true for Cawl.

 Ketara wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Very interesting.

This leaves me ever more tentatively hoping that they are indeed setting up a new civil war.

I doubt it if the plot remains as is. Guilliman is depicted as very firmly in control, with odd groups (planetary governors, etc) giving him a bit of trouble, but nothing along the lines of a civil war. He's shoved the Mechanicus into line, along with the Inquisition and the Custodes. He's supplanted the Lords of Terra. Cawl himself says that he has the power to appoint the new Fabricator General.

The truth is, Guilliman is effectively Emperor. He acts with the actual Emperor's full authority, and nobody else talks to the Emperor. That makes him Emperor by proxy. He has no counterpart, no rival authority. He is unchallenged.

If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.

How does anyone shove the Mechanicus aside? Any details on that?

I gave one of the implications in that direction in my earlier quotes.

Some changes had been made to Imperial salvaging policies within the fleet. Guilliman had ordered the wrecks of the traitor’s ships to be utterly destroyed. It had been the habit of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Navy to recover enemy ships. Chaos vessels were of Imperial make, and were often of older, superior patterns. The primarch stamped hard on the practice. Build new ships, he had said. Leave the past where it is. The corruption of the warp buried itself deeply into whatever it touched.
The Martians had not been happy with that. They had looked upon the older marques of vessel with greedy eyes. Examples had been made.

There are several sentences along these lines within the book. Combined with Cawl's belief that Guilliman has the power to appoint the Fabricator-General, it's reasonably clear that the Priesthood of Mars is firmly under his thumb for the most part. I've no doubt that there will still be factions of both the Adeptus Mechanicus and Inquisition beavering away behind the scenes to circumvent him, but as long as he has the main command chains firmly within his grip, it's not much of a concern. He also has the Ministorum eating out of his hand, he's taken over as the ultimate military commander, and even gives orders to the Custodes to take to the stars and do battle.

Somehow, in the space of a hundred years, Guilliman appears to have welded the Imperium into a machine under the direction of one primary ruler:- him. When Cawl is nagging him to appoint him Fabricator-General, Guilliman keeps insisting that the Martians need to do it themselves, that there have to be checks and balances, that he doesn't want be Horus. But at the same time, when he announces the appointment of another ten chapters of Primaris Marines and people start accusing him of building his own legion again, he overrides them without a second thought.

Guilliman is Emperor by proxy. He appoints the highest positions or not at his own whim. New Chapters are created by his sole discretion. He gives the order, and suddenly fifty planetary governors who have ruled their respective worlds for 3,000 years by past decree from the Lords of Terra find they're now subordinate to some random Ultramarine. He's literally turned around and said that the Codex Astartes is no longer fit for purpose and he's mid-way through a new edition (Codex Imperialis, I think it was), and every space marine will have to follow that instead when he's done. He orders the Martians about, overrides the Inquisition by pulling people out of their cells, throws out Lords of Terra who he thinks aren't up to the job.

Ave Imperator, Roboute Guilliman. Imperium Secundus has already risen.

And this is why I can't take some folks' protestations about how things are still totes grimdark honest guv very seriously. All of the supposed setbacks of Dark Imperium have only in reality served to allow Guilliman to strengthen the Imperium and put it on an equal footing with their myriad enemies for the first time in millennia. Innovation in the Mechanicus, a whole new arm of government dedicated to reasoned and factual examination and propagation of history, fractious internecine politics suppressed, unified military control under a strategic genius, the Custodes abroad in the galaxy again, superior Marines with superior new equipment in vast numbers etc etc - it's hardly Star Trek, but this new incarnation of the Imperium isn't even remotely as precarious as they were prior to Gathering Storm, to the point that evidently the only thing most folk here can plausibly see threatening this new state of affairs is Horus Heresy Part Deux: Meaningless Retread Boogaloo - Primarchs Gone Wild.

stratigo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
actually Gulliman ISN'T nesscarily carrying on like before. even he's finding his faith tested. n many ways his entire world view has been under assault. before he viewed the Emperor as "his father, and just a man" he's realizing now his relationship with the Emperor was differant (more a favored tool then a father son) he's also beginning to, even though he resists it on an intellectual level, wonder if perhaps his father is indeed a god. It's really neat to see, especially as in the Horus Heresy series I don't think we've ever seen any of the Primarchs wrestling with this level of well.. DOUBT, regreat and confusion.

A lotta people tend to think the whole Gulliman return thing, and the Primaris Marines, brings too much noblebright into the grimdark, but having read the book I think they really managed to make it work. Now that we've had our first taste, I'm excited for future novels.

They need to stop pushing this "The emperor never cared" line. It turns the emperor from a great man with tragic, but very human flaws, into simply a stupid psycho. The Horus Heresy doesn't make nearly as much sense if the emperor simply saw the primarchs as tools to use and discard at will. Ie he made mistakes out of emotion verse him just being dumb. That's the problem with an emotionless schemer. Any time they're wrong, it's because they were stupid.

Well said.

 Grimgold wrote:
As for which loyalist goes traitor, there seems only one good option, Lion El'Johnson, but they have surprised us before.

Boy will I be beyond pissed if this happens.

Edit: the HH books clearly point the Lion has being loyal to Big Daddy E. Not the Imperium, or anything else. His father.

If the Emperor decided to go tabula rasa on the Imperium, The Lion wouldn't think twice before following him and burning everything to ashes. Loyalty is both his greatest virtue and his deepest flaw.

"Loyalty is its own reward."

 Yodhrin wrote:

stratigo wrote:


They need to stop pushing this "The emperor never cared" line. It turns the emperor from a great man with tragic, but very human flaws, into simply a stupid psycho. The Horus Heresy doesn't make nearly as much sense if the emperor simply saw the primarchs as tools to use and discard at will. Ie he made mistakes out of emotion verse him just being dumb. That's the problem with an emotionless schemer. Any time they're wrong, it's because they were stupid.

Well said.

Hear, hear.

Awesome!

Thanks for the insight its very cool, I like how much time has passed as well it makes a lot of sense.

Another point, its been 100 years but chaos still didn't reach Terra?

1) If so Failbaddon appears to have failed...again.
2) How is chaos keeping it together for 100 years? Their big weakness was a lack of logistics and predisposition to shoot each other as much as shoot as anyone else?
3) How have the chaos gods not gone fickle again?

 Yodhrin wrote:

 chalkobob wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I'm eagerly awaiting Cawl to have a secret connection to the Dark Mechanicus, or even the Dragon itself. Would be a nice sudden upset to all the (seemingly) easy gains the side of Good has gained with the new setting.

I doubt very much that'll be the case, but at the same time, yeah Gulliman's definatly made a bit of a deal with the devil here.

I'm doubtful too, but I would like to see more intrigue among the heroes, and the return of the dragon sect of mars being relevant again. It would, if anything, give a very understandable reason for Cawl being so radical and secretive.

Why would you want the thing that if taken literally robs the Mechanicus of their agency and thus their narrative of any meaning to be dredged up again to also rob Cawl of any agency? The point of the Mechanicus was supposed to be to illustrate how human nature and human failings can corrupt any kind of progress, technological as well as social and spiritual. Dumping a C'tan into the mix wasn't about the Mechanicus, it was about making Da Emprah look overwrought-guitar-solo-awesome for beating up a big nasty baddie as part of the overcompensating CREEEEEEED manipulations introduced during the HH novel series.

The Mechanicus have a better story when their present state is the result of choices made freely by flawed humans, and the same would be true for Cawl.

It only robs the Mechanicus of their agency if you assume that A: the majority of the Mechanicus are aware of the dragon's existence and exploit it and B: That the innovations of the Mechanicus and the machinations of the dragon cult were solely the doings of the dragon. It doesn't have to be this way at all. C'tan, in general, are akin to evil genies, making faustian bargains. If you assume that the dragon cult was just a very small, secret, heretical sect of the Machanicus, who deal with an imprisoned dragon shard, the same way Clarice Starling deals with an imprisoned Hannibal Lector in order to make strides in scientific and technological understanding that wouldn't have been so easily possible otherwise than the human frailty factor would still be intact. The dragon cult knowingly makes a dangerous deal with Lucifer in exchange for heretical knowledge. They would be very guilty of both reckless ambition and hubris, you know, human flaws.

Adding different political entities and groups within the Mechanicus full of intrigue, secrets, and motives gives them depth. Cawl secretly being a heretic with perhaps, less than noble goals makes him interesting to me for a number of reasons. For one, it means that the ultra-shiny Guilleman and his merry band of indomitus super friends might be a little more complicated and less noble bright than they initially appear and means that Cawl, to further his own goals, is knowingly playing a dangerous game, especially if he is genuinely convinced that he is doing what is best for humanity (ends justifying the means kind of thing). If discovered, his fate could be very grim indeed. So far, Guilleman's return feels a lot like Mighty Mouse coming to save the day, I like my 40k to be grim-dark, having a schism and in-fighting between the heroes because of their human flaws, including individuality, culminating perhaps in the Imperium itself dividing does this. 40k works for me the more vulnerable human kind is, this direction would only add to that.

the same way Clarice Starling deals with an imprisoned Hannibal Lector

You've just sold it to me with that one image. Nice work

Agreed that if they were to do a Dragon Cult, it would have to be a small number of radical Magi, rather than the whole lot of them. Much easier to set up narrative tensions that way.

Doubly good if they imply Cawl has some connections to them. No outright statement of 'Cawl is best buds with the Dragon', but a subtle insinuation that no doubt someone 5 years down the line will read and decide needs to be enshrined in as close to 40k has to canon like all the other neat subtle insinuations we used to have, but for those 5 years it will be neat

 Yodhrin wrote:

And this is why I can't take some folks' protestations about how things are still totes grimdark honest guv very seriously. All of the supposed setbacks of Dark Imperium have only in reality served to allow Guilliman to strengthen the Imperium and put it on an equal footing with their myriad enemies for the first time in millennia. Innovation in the Mechanicus, a whole new arm of government dedicated to reasoned and factual examination and propagation of history, fractious internecine politics suppressed, unified military control under a strategic genius, the Custodes abroad in the galaxy again, superior Marines with superior new equipment in vast numbers etc etc - it's hardly Star Trek, but this new incarnation of the Imperium isn't even remotely as precarious as they were prior to Gathering Storm, to the point that evidently the only thing most folk here can plausibly see threatening this new state of affairs is Horus Heresy Part Deux: Meaningless Retread Boogaloo - Primarchs Gone Wild.

I agree and disagree at the same time.

I agree in that if we take it as a static snapshot of the situation in 40K, you're totally correct. Things look reasonably noblebright.

I disagree in that I highly suspect it won't remain that way. Why? Allow me to elucidate.

There is an entire section in the book dedicated to how the perception of time is screwed up, how there's been multiple calendars and most don't agree. I think it's something of a Chekhov's Gun, they're going to use it to justify rewinding the clock by two hundred years or so. Warhammer 40K is a powerful named brand. They want to move the story forward, but they aren't going to want to rebrand to 41K. We're already noting a full overhaul of the game system, and they've dissolved the codices into five separate books.

Accordingly, the impression I am getting is we're in for another two hundred years of storyline development which is going to affect every faction. The Primarchs reborn are going to be a large part of that, but we're doubtless going to see some Xenos action. They've planted the seeds of where problems are going to come in with Cawl, and I've no doubt we'll see something blossom from that, along with various other Imperial problems.

In other words, we're seeing the start of a lot of new story stuff, and I think there'll be plenty of fresh grimdark dripping in over the next few years. They've strengthened the Imperium again, so that they have something to tear down again.

 Ketara wrote:


In other words, we're seeing the start of a lot of new story stuff, and I think there'll be plenty of fresh grimdark dripping in over the next few years. They've strengthened the Imperium again, so that they have something to tear down again.

Just as it should be. Primorkus (or is it Prigorkus) Orks 2017

Primus Carnifexes!

people whom think the IoM is strengthened and suoper noble bright need to read the novel. and understand the implications.

ok first of all, the great rift means that the IoM has effectivly lost half it's worlds. (per a video with the story writers today, they stated the astronomican doesn't work in Imperium Nihlus, and that chaos is "definatly winning I;d say")

secondly we're seeing mass assaults on the IoM, Ultramar, which was one of the more peaceful and prosperous parts of the IoM has been under seige for a good century now.

the IoM MAY be stronger, but the threat level just ramped up to 11.