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I thought abbadon was going to get killed? like there was a req out for art of him getting shot to death with a bolter by Cypher.

 Grimgold wrote:
I thought abbadon was going to get killed? like there was a req out for art of him getting shot to death with a bolter by Cypher.

a completely fake rumor.

as for how chaos navigates they eaither use sorcrrers or well.. demons. they are not dependant on the astronomicon.

BrianDavion wrote:


as for how chaos navigates they eaither use sorcrrers or well.. demons. they are not dependant on the astronomicon.

Yeah i thought that would be the case, in which case they'd be better off than the Dark Imperium who have lost their primary method of stable long-distance warp travel.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


as for how chaos navigates they eaither use sorcrrers or well.. demons. they are not dependant on the astronomicon.

Yeah i thought that would be the case, in which case they'd be better off than the Dark Imperium who have lost their primary method of stable long-distance warp travel.

Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies.

Edit: I say, as a lifelong Imperial player

 Frazzled wrote:
Very true, although from a practical perspective they should be functionally identical. The Imperium survived because it was such a colossal edifice that it couldn't be taken down piecemeal. If one sector was attacked, they could relocate whole worlds to either repopulate or drown the enemy in Guardsman. Without access to half of their worlds, their principle survival strategy (throw Guardsmen at it) is effectively halved. The other half of the galaxy might as well not be there.

Actually that should not be completely accurate. Those worlds aren't isolated. Its a half a galaxy and they can still combine to defeat the chaos forces being arrayed against them.

The problem is that logically, chaos should be a minor threat less than the Tau. They have very few production facilities, aren't logisticians, just the troops, and all the fluff had them as being about able to focus as a legion of marines with ADD in a universe of "OH PRETTY!"

By this point logically chaos should have been obliterated or ran back to warp space to survive. But hey...GW .

Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.

 Frazzled wrote:
How do the Choas forces navigate? derp I see I you just asked the same question.

I am not convinced Chaos is any better off.

Chaos navigates warp storms by a Chaos God copying Piccard and saying "make it so", a Sorcerer or a cabal of them guides them through the storm, or the exceptionally crazy just say "screw it" and charge straight through it and don't care about the losses. There is a difference however between Abaddon or a major Chaos Lord of Khorne leading an invasion force where the patron god(s) will intervene and Lord Scrub the Terrible who is just some random renegade space marine and doesn't even have any chaos boons. He's probably going to have a really bad day.

 1hadhq wrote:

May I add the question if the new fluff is 100% centered around Humans ( Loyalist) vs Humans ( Traitors ) and the rest can go on Holidays until 9th Edition?

I am guessing everyone will get their bite of the cherry in due course. This is just the first novel set in the post-Indomnus Crusade setting.

 Frazzled wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?

To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.

The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.

Interesting thought what with the nature of time distortions from warp travel, inconsistent communication and the Ordo Chronos not being able to keep the calendar straight.


The Horus Heresy might have happened much more recently then the Imperium thinks. Maybe Guilliman's only been cat napping for 100 years....



Disclaimer: This is a joke theory

stratigo wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?

To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.

The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.

Not to string the thread into a different topic, but while production was lower, production of tanks and dudes with rifles/submachine guns, pointy sticks and a bottle of vodka were higher. You are correct though (they only surpassed mid 1943) and its a misnomer people don't realize.

However in this instance, while chaos may have "tons" of worlds they build things on, they don't have 1,000,000,000 worlds. The contemplated production capacity of the IOM is absolutely staggering. If the IoM is facing defeat from one cause then they will focus resources to that cause. As with the Sabbat crusade, while chaos could expand initially, once the IoM focused, it was able top defeat them.

Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.

While the game focuses on marines, they are not that relevant Its the capital ships that matter.

So no word on the Ynnari? Disappointing but I'm not surprised at least there's an audio novel that gives us a brief glance at the "Alliance" between Robute and Yvraine. Hopefully we'll get more information as more books come out.

May I add the question if the new fluff is 100% centered around Humans ( Loyalist) vs Humans ( Traitors ) and the rest can go on Holidays until 9th Edition?

Its more that the fluff is 100% centred about Marines (Loyalist) vs Marines (Traitors).

 Frazzled wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?

To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.

The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.

Not to string the thread into a different topic, but while production was lower, production of tanks and dudes with rifles/submachine guns, pointy sticks and a bottle of vodka were higher. You are correct though (they only surpassed mid 1943) and its a misnomer people don't realize.

However in this instance, while chaos may have "tons" of worlds they build things on, they don't have 1,000,000,000 worlds. The contemplated production capacity of the IOM is absolutely staggering. If the IoM is facing defeat from one cause then they will focus resources to that cause. As with the Sabbat crusade, while chaos could expand initially, once the IoM focused, it was able top defeat them.

Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.

While the game focuses on marines, they are not that relevant Its the capital ships that matter.

Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.

Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.

Just a quick question- Warhammer Community has an article up about the book and I was curious, what does Guilliman think of Marneus Calgar?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?

To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.

The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.

Not to string the thread into a different topic, but while production was lower, production of tanks and dudes with rifles/submachine guns, pointy sticks and a bottle of vodka were higher. You are correct though (they only surpassed mid 1943) and its a misnomer people don't realize.

However in this instance, while chaos may have "tons" of worlds they build things on, they don't have 1,000,000,000 worlds. The contemplated production capacity of the IOM is absolutely staggering. If the IoM is facing defeat from one cause then they will focus resources to that cause. As with the Sabbat crusade, while chaos could expand initially, once the IoM focused, it was able top defeat them.

Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.

While the game focuses on marines, they are not that relevant Its the capital ships that matter.

Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.

Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.

Spoiler:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. If Chaos had such capacity, they wouldn't have lost in the first place.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.

Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.

Spoiler:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. If Chaos had such capacity, they wouldn't have lost in the first place.

They lost in the first place because at the end of the Heresy there were still Imperial Fists alive to man the walls of the Imperial palace.

Modern Chaos is evidently weaker than what Horus had at his disposal. Horus had half of the Imperium behind him, more Marine legions with more manpower, and still had access to daemon allies. Most importantly, Horus had a united force to throw at the Imperium.

Abaddon can only dream of that. Any alliance he builds inevitably breaks down, the Chaos gods are more focused on their struggle against each other than anything else, and he does not have the benefit of half the galaxy turning traitor to tie up Imperial forces.

At the same time the Imperium is as strong as it has ever been, with significant numbers of Marines, a huge navy, endless cannon fodder and vast space that cannot be crossed easily without exposing the space version of a flank to Imperial forces.

Honestly Chaos as an overt force never struck me as a credible threat to the Imperium. Subversion and corruption, those work, sure, but as a military force to give Abaddon what he wants, literally death to the false Emperor, there was never much chance of that happening. I like the analogy with WW2. Abaddon had one chance to strike Terra and cut off the head before, as with every last Black Crusade before, the giant that is the Imperium reacts and brings its full face to bear. Even then, he would have to succeed where Horus failed, and given the military might of the Imperium, I have my doubts that that was ever realistic.

Because of this I don't find the new background convincing. Well, I do in a "Guilliman saves the galaxy" kind of way. I can see that. But as Chaos doing anything significant to the Imperium, that's a bit of a stretch. Cutting off the Dark Imperium is evidently not too harmful because Guilliman had no trouble reaching Baal with pinpoint precision to save the Blood Angels in their hour of doom in spite of blowing up how dark and doomed everything is on that side of the warp storm. The Dark Imperium is only lost to the Imperium if the warp storm keeps at it, otherwise it'll simply be reclaimed afterwards. Any industrially strong worlds will remain Imperial bastions for a long time and the most threatened worlds are the ones with the smallest value. Chaos as a threat? Honestly, starvation on hive worlds due to cut warp lanes to agriworlds is a bigger problem. Tyranids nomming worlds without much opposition are a bigger threat. Necrons reclaiming their empire are a bigger threat. Both of them because they don't care about warp storms or the Astronomican. Whereas Chaos does at least to a degree (although in the case of warp storms to a significant degree,. or else the Cadian Gate wouldn't have had such a big role to keep Chaos forces locked in the Eye of Terror).

Ultimately I don't see how much has changed. The Imperium has only half of its worlds to supply its military, but it only has half of its ground to defend. Most important Imperial worlds are on the right side and keep functioning as normal. Chaos has gained the ability to overextend itself and merrily does so. So what has really changed other than that the Imperium gained a military and logistical genius who reforms the Imperium to be more efficient at what is used to do pretty well to begin with? The whole new setup is just fake peril for the shiny new hero to overcome.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?

To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.

The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.

Not to string the thread into a different topic, but while production was lower, production of tanks and dudes with rifles/submachine guns, pointy sticks and a bottle of vodka were higher. You are correct though (they only surpassed mid 1943) and its a misnomer people don't realize.

However in this instance, while chaos may have "tons" of worlds they build things on, they don't have 1,000,000,000 worlds. The contemplated production capacity of the IOM is absolutely staggering. If the IoM is facing defeat from one cause then they will focus resources to that cause. As with the Sabbat crusade, while chaos could expand initially, once the IoM focused, it was able top defeat them.

Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.

While the game focuses on marines, they are not that relevant Its the capital ships that matter.

Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.

Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.

Spoiler:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. If Chaos had such capacity, they wouldn't have lost in the first place.

They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).

They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).

I'm guessing you're a chaos player...


Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.

 Frazzled wrote:

They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).

I'm guessing you're a chaos player...


Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.

No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).

I'm guessing you're a chaos player...


Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.

No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.

Tell me, what are these books you speak of.

 Geifer wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.

Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.

Spoiler:

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. If Chaos had such capacity, they wouldn't have lost in the first place.

They lost in the first place because at the end of the Heresy there were still Imperial Fists alive to man the walls of the Imperial palace.

Modern Chaos is evidently weaker than what Horus had at his disposal. Horus had half of the Imperium behind him, more Marine legions with more manpower, and still had access to daemon allies. Most importantly, Horus had a united force to throw at the Imperium.

Abaddon can only dream of that. Any alliance he builds inevitably breaks down, the Chaos gods are more focused on their struggle against each other than anything else, and he does not have the benefit of half the galaxy turning traitor to tie up Imperial forces.

At the same time the Imperium is as strong as it has ever been, with significant numbers of Marines, a huge navy, endless cannon fodder and vast space that cannot be crossed easily without exposing the space version of a flank to Imperial forces.

Honestly Chaos as an overt force never struck me as a credible threat to the Imperium. Subversion and corruption, those work, sure, but as a military force to give Abaddon what he wants, literally death to the false Emperor, there was never much chance of that happening. I like the analogy with WW2. Abaddon had one chance to strike Terra and cut off the head before, as with every last Black Crusade before, the giant that is the Imperium reacts and brings its full face to bear. Even then, he would have to succeed where Horus failed, and given the military might of the Imperium, I have my doubts that that was ever realistic.

Because of this I don't find the new background convincing. Well, I do in a "Guilliman saves the galaxy" kind of way. I can see that. But as Chaos doing anything significant to the Imperium, that's a bit of a stretch. Cutting off the Dark Imperium is evidently not too harmful because Guilliman had no trouble reaching Baal with pinpoint precision to save the Blood Angels in their hour of doom in spite of blowing up how dark and doomed everything is on that side of the warp storm. The Dark Imperium is only lost to the Imperium if the warp storm keeps at it, otherwise it'll simply be reclaimed afterwards. Any industrially strong worlds will remain Imperial bastions for a long time and the most threatened worlds are the ones with the smallest value. Chaos as a threat? Honestly, starvation on hive worlds due to cut warp lanes to agriworlds is a bigger problem. Tyranids nomming worlds without much opposition are a bigger threat. Necrons reclaiming their empire are a bigger threat. Both of them because they don't care about warp storms or the Astronomican. Whereas Chaos does at least to a degree (although in the case of warp storms to a significant degree,. or else the Cadian Gate wouldn't have had such a big role to keep Chaos forces locked in the Eye of Terror).

Ultimately I don't see how much has changed. The Imperium has only half of its worlds to supply its military, but it only has half of its ground to defend. Most important Imperial worlds are on the right side and keep functioning as normal. Chaos has gained the ability to overextend itself and merrily does so. So what has really changed other than that the Imperium gained a military and logistical genius who reforms the Imperium to be more efficient at what is used to do pretty well to begin with? The whole new setup is just fake peril for the shiny new hero to overcome.

except the problem is any seige would take too long, thus Abbaddon wants to hedge his bets by basicly having the rift spread as far as terra. right now the IoM (and everyone else who understands whats going on) are racing against time to stop the rift from spreading, let alone close whats there

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).

I'm guessing you're a chaos player...


Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.

No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.

Tell me, what are these books you speak of.

Talon of Horus if I recall was the book that mentioned Horus was a sacrifice for a greater cause, and just paying attention to specific details mentioned in codices or novels.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).

I'm guessing you're a chaos player...


Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.

No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.

Tell me, what are these books you speak of.

Talon of Horus if I recall was the book that mentioned Horus was a sacrifice for a greater cause, and just paying attention to specific details mentioned in codices or novels.

IIRC a few books of late have had Horus refered to by the chaos gods as "the sacrificed King"

Well if we followed that, then Chaos has no chance, because it doesn't actually want to win.

 Wyzilla wrote:

They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).

Yeah, that's the way I've understood it. The Chaos Gods won the Heresy, and both sides were played. Now there's endless war and suffering which benefits the Chaos Gods, exactly as they would want.

It also lends a really nice Lovecraftian feel to things. They're entities whose intelligence is utterly beyond out comprehension. Did we really think that us mere mortals could outwit them? It's not a chess game between humanity and the Gods. We're nothing but the pieces on the board.

Where I do differ slightly from the above is that I don't really believe that Chaos has the capacity to roll over everyone. They may be all-powerful within their realm, but they have limited ability to affect the material plane. They can't just open a warp rift and start spewing out daemons willy nilly. They have to plot and scheme and barter their way into the minds of mortals to open a conduit between the warp and the materium, through which they can sow terror.

It's in this way that Chaos may be held at bay. The Gods themselves cannot be defeated by mere mortals. However, their mortal servants can be thwarted, and their influence in the materium limited.

Plus, as far as I can see the Chaos Gods require intelligent warp-connected minds to exist. Ultimately, the death of intelligent life in the Milky Way would likewise be the death of the Chaos Gods. As such, they have a vested interest in not allowing the Necrons or Tyranids to succeed. This is the only way in which they are truly vulnerable.

 Frazzled wrote:
Well if we followed that, then Chaos has no chance, because it doesn't actually want to win.

That's kind of the point with the big baddies (Chaos, Tyranids, Oldcrons). Ultimately, they don't actually give a toss about 'winning'. They just consume, destroy, or perpetuate misery.

The Chaos Space Marines care about winning, because their war is a war against the Imperium. Chaos itself doesn't care about winning, it only cares about perpetuating misery and destruction. I suppose the only way for the CSM to actually win and wipe out the Imperium is to try and trick the Gods into doing it. Subtly place the idea of glory to the first who kills the Emperor into their gargantuan minds, and let them fight through who will do it first.

I don't particularly fancy my chances of out-Tzeentching Tzeentch though...

 Wyzilla wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).

I'm guessing you're a chaos player...


Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.

No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.

Tell me, what are these books you speak of.

Talon of Horus if I recall was the book that mentioned Horus was a sacrifice for a greater cause, and just paying attention to specific details mentioned in codices or novels.

I was infact, being sarcastic. I don't recall that bit however from ToH, but I've not read it in sometime.