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 Grimskul wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:


This is exactly the BS I'm talking about. Your statement is inflammatoire. How is saying "it aint my thing " Than agreeing with everyone I don't agree with. By saying ,but if It was a bit darker it might work." how is being force fed your ideals. Or being told I need to agree with you in some way mature at all. It's not.

You could paint the thing entirely black And I would still say the aesthetic is Cartoonish. I stand by my statement that the character assasination and manipulation by the fanboys here is insane. Control freaks much? You litteraly said "unless you say exactly my view point you're immature.

I am not saying no to being challanged. Sure go ahead say" I think it's not cartoonish. "

But there was no challenge. I was simply insulted told my subjective view point was baseless then told unless I accept that I'm wrong.

What I have been told to accept is not only abusive but down right creepy.

Unless I parrot exactly what you want me to say. You will continue to be controlling abusive trolls. So yeah. Try again maybe this time with basic human respect.

I will state this very simple so everyone can understand

To me personally. No matter how dark you paint it. The Aesthetic looks cartoonish.

Disagree all you want. But don't be a total creepy controll freak when you do.

You're the one throwing around insults and calling people creepy control freaks and fanboys for disagreeing with you. You were told your viewpoint was baseless because, well, it doesn't appear to be based on anything. You don't have any kind of supporting information to point to to back up what you're saying, you're just stating your opinion and then rebutting any dissent from that opinion by accusing people of being abusive toward you. So again, if you just wanted to state your opinion without having the expectation that you would elaborate on it or back it up with anything, and you don't want to entertain any other opinions, then why start the thread in the first place?

Your god dam right I'm calling the controll freaks creepy and abusive. Being told that unless you parrot what we think your immature and wrong is creepy as ..

I don't need to back up a subjective opinion on art. The plastic modeling no matter how you paint it with the stupid bells and giant teeth look cartoonish. Which is an entirely subjective opinion. If you all understood that evidence is not reacquired for personal taste and stopped being creepy and abusive we could all get along great. I will not parrot what you want. I refuse to capitulate to abusive creeps that control everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Point_blank wrote:
ForceChoke, I believe that you are recognizing some legitimate issues with the new models, It's just that "cartoonish" is not the right word to describe it. It just isn't a very useful word to describe what you are talking about. At best cartoonish is having exaggerated eyes, heads, and hands, and wildly animated too. The new models are literally the opposite of that with more realistic proportions. There are lots of negative things you can call them but cartoon is one that doesn't actually fit very well.

What other people have commented on these models is that they are over designed. Too many details in an effort that screams "look how much detail is on these models". It doesn't look realistic at all but that's not the same as being cartoonish. Maybe stylized would be a better word. The best example is that gigantic bell. Can you imagine how that thing would swing around while the marine runs about the battlefield? Yeah, no paint job is going to cover that one.

Personally though I don't think 40k would be better off if everything was painted call of duty brown or michael bay orange. And I don't think you do either.

I 100% believe cartoonish is the right word to describe it. Please explain how it looking cartoonish no matter how you paint it to my eyes is incorrect. Cartoonish and heavily stylized. My subjective oppion. How canI be incorrect from an entirely subjective view point or baseless or anything else that was said.

Also others agree others disagree. Just leave it at that. Stop trying to tell me that my brain coming up with the "cartoonish" adjective on a subjective art piece is incorrect.


How about a basic level of understanding you could say. " I personally dont find it cartoonish. That would make more sense

Just because you can have your own personal and subjective opinion does not give you a magical "get out of jail" free card that makes you exempt from people critiquing or pointing out the flaws in your opinion. Opinions CAN in fact, be wrong. The fact that you have to resort to ad hominems and playing the victim rather than backing up your statements (notice how the posters you're decrying as control freaks and "abusers" post actual pics and evidence that directly support their opinion, unlike yours) implies that maybe your subjective opinion isn't such an untouchable thing after all?

Also, it's kinda ironic that you call people out for being control freaks when its you whose been telling everyone to back off and accept that your opinion is correct.

A subjective oppion on art can not in anyway be wrong. Because it's subjective.

And it's creepy as to force your ideas on people that have a subjective oppion. Sure you can say I dont agree. But it's subjective. As in art. That's like saying I dont like the songs of justin bibbler. And being told your incorrect.

Sorry but if people are being creepy controlling and abusive. Then I will call it out.


It's insulting to say "your subjective thoughts on art are wrong"

Do you understand the word Subjective?

If anyone else is going to respond first be tactful. Here is a guide. "I disagree because it doesn't look cartoonish to me"

That's a mature and respectful response.

Now can a MOD please close this thread.

So are we now ignoring people who say you can dislike the stuff if you want?

If so this isn't a discussion thread, it's an echo chamber.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So are we now ignoring people who say you can dislike the stuff if you want?

If so this isn't a discussion thread, it's an echo chamber.

Pretty much at this point.

Forcechoke, you still haven't properly addressed all the different points that the other posters have made that highlight the flaws in your opinion. Until you do that, people will just see you as someone plugging their fingers into their ears and yelling for the bad people to go away.

Also, opinions, subjective or not, can be wrong. I can have the opinion that the Statue of Liberty originates from the crowning achievement of the crab people's dominance over mankind in their victory during the War of 1812, and if I tell people about it and others rightfully correct me on its true historical origins, there's nothing stopping that opinion from being misinformed or flat out wrong.

 ForceChoke wrote:

Do you understand the word Subjective?

Yes, do you?

If anyone else is going to respond first be tactful. Here is a guide. "I dissagree because it doesn't look cartoonish to me"

Problem is, people have been saying exactly that. "It doesn't look cartoonish to me, and here's why..."
To which you have routinely responded by saying that their reasoning behind their opinion is not only wrong, because the models look cartoonish no matter what in your "subjective" opinion, but the mere fact they presented their own opinion and backed it up with examples and reason is abusive.

Now can a MOD please close this thread.

That would probably be the most constructive thing to happen to this thread, but then where would I get my laughs?

"Looking cartoon / anime"
I could think of worse things it could look like but I will attempt to be less flippant.

There are more details than in the past which will be a wee bit of a challenge when building up an army so "cartoon" may be a bit of a stretch.
The models do have a more "iconic" look to them, which the paint scheme will have a huge impact on their look.

The Death Guard seems to be more "horns and holes" as their theme (yep, even on the daemons).
There is a wee bit of bells attached which I find goofy but my much beloved Black Templars got their weapons chained to them so who am I to complain?
I have to point out that they are converging more with the look of their fantasy counterparts.
Not so much the guts or boils hanging out we have seen in the recent past.

The new marines is all about "layers" of armor, I kinda like the look (like the plated armor of old with interlocked segments).
We can get into the discussion on size but I just point at the "new" Terminators (post 1" base, metal termies) and how they are disproportioned to the "normal" marines as it is.
People have been converting to "true-scale" for a terribly long time, I would say this was inevitable.
It will be interesting to see if we ever see an adjustment where they become the "real" marines and the little guys are "Squat'ed".
Too many plastic kits to even contemplate that for a while yet for GW.

 Grimskul wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So are we now ignoring people who say you can dislike the stuff if you want?

If so this isn't a discussion thread, it's an echo chamber.

Pretty much at this point.

Forcechoke, you still haven't properly addressed all the different points that the other posters have made that highlight the flaws in your opinion. Until you do that, people will just see you as someone plugging their fingers into their ears and yelling for the bad people to go away.

Also, opinions, subjective or not, can be wrong. I can have the opinion that the Statue of Liberty originates from the crowning achievement of the crab people's dominance over mankind in their victory during the War of 1812, and if I tell people about it and others rightfully correct me on its true historical origins, there's nothing stopping that opinion from being misinformed or flat out wrong.

I flat out disagree with your assertion based on personal taste

Were talking about art not delusions your analogy doesn't work in this scinario. We are not discussing facts or history we are discussing art and personal taste.

I addressed the paint job being bright already. If you base coated it matt black. The physical shape of the models would still look cartoonish from my view point.

The only reason I'm defensive at all is the moronic assertion that personal taste is not subjective. As well as the manipulation twisting of words trolling and abuse.


I have addressed all your points. Even the models always have been cartoony. I argued that was a lack of resources and skill. That the pendulam has swung to far from realism and grim dark to disney like levels.

I have not dismissed anyone until the character assassination trolling and abuse started to happen.

I was told unless i agree with the paint is the only reason it looks cartoonish. Then Im immature wrong etc

Clearly anyone. That doesn't parrot what you agree with is wrong.


Now can a mod please close this thread.

NOT IN THE LEAST BIT CARTOONISH .... RIGHT..

I don't know if we can really call plastic toy soldier models "art". I'd argue the paint job and conversions would be more a show of artistry than the models themselves.

I'm not trying to bash on the sculpts or sculptors of course, but those serve as the medium for people to express their ideas with, making them, in my view, as much "art" as a blank canvas is.

Opinions are subjective, therefore my subjective opinion is objectively correct and unassailable and I flatly deny that any other opinions have merit!

Now stop discussing your objectively inferior opinions in a thread I started about subjective opinion!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know if we can really call plastic toy soldier models "art". I'd argue the paint job and conversions would be more a show of artistry than the models themselves.
I'm not trying to bash on the sculpts or sculptors of course, but those serve as the medium for people to express their ideas with, making them, in my view, as much "art" as a blank canvas is.

That is like calling "paint by numbers" not art.
It is a creative endeavor even though it is at it's most basic form.
I have made many a conversion I am quite proud of that I would not call art... ever.
I find the more difficult something looks to an individual, the more likely they will call it art.

 Luciferian wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

Do you understand the word Subjective?

Yes, do you?

If anyone else is going to respond first be tactful. Here is a guide. "I dissagree because it doesn't look cartoonish to me"

Problem is, people have been saying exactly that. "It doesn't look cartoonish to me, and here's why..."
To which you have routinely responded by saying that their reasoning behind their opinion is not only wrong, because the models look cartoonish no matter what in your "subjective" opinion, but the mere fact they presented their own opinion and backed it up with examples and reason is abusive.

Now can a MOD please close this thread.

That would probably be the most constructive thing to happen to this thread, but then where would I get my laughs?

What utter BS no one has said anything but you are wrong. You claim that people have been saying exactly that. And I 100% think it's utter crap. That's an outright lie. People have been TELLING me what to think.

This looks cartoonish to me I feel it's a bad direction. This is my supporting evidence. On an entirely Subjective Viewpoint, I might add. So do you mind stopping with the BS and lies that would be great

Like talking to a cult.

 ForceChoke wrote:
So do you mind stopping with the BS and lies that would be greate.

greate is spelled great

 ForceChoke wrote:
We're talking about art not delusions your analogy doesn't work in this scenario. We are not discussing facts or history, we are discussing art and personal taste.

I addressed the paint job being bright already. If you base coated it matte black. The physical shape of the models would still look cartoonish from my view point.

The only reason I'm defensive at all is the moronic assertion that personal taste is not subjective. As well as the manipulation twisting of words trolling and abuse.


I have addressed all your points. Even the models always have been cartoony. I argued that was a lack of resources and skill. That the pendulum has swung too far from realism and grim dark to Disney like levels.

I have not dismissed anyone until the character assassination trolling and abuse started to happen.

I was told unless I agree with the paint, it is the only reason it looks cartoonish. Then I'm immature, wrong, etc

 carldooley wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
So do you mind stopping with the BS and lies that would be greate.

greate is spelled great

Dyslexia. Easy to target other peoples spelling and grammar when there is no argument left.

 ForceChoke wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
So do you mind stopping with the BS and lies that would be greate.

greate is spelled great

Dyslexia. Easy to target other peoples spelling and grammar when there is no argument left.

Not to be rude, but most browsers have a built in spell check you can use to correct your posts before posting. Complete with red squiggles of doom!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ForceChoke wrote:
People have been TELLING me what to think.

The only "telling" I can see in this thread is you telling people what they're posting instead of people knowing what they're actually posting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know if we can really call plastic toy soldier models "art". I'd argue the paint job and conversions would be more a show of artistry than the models themselves.
I'm not trying to bash on the sculpts or sculptors of course, but those serve as the medium for people to express their ideas with, making them, in my view, as much "art" as a blank canvas is.

That is like calling "paint by numbers" not art.
It is a creative endeavor even though it is at it's most basic form.
I have made many a conversion I am quite proud of that I would not call art... ever.
I find the more difficult something looks to an individual, the more likely they will call it art.

That's fair. I just mean it's hard to use the "art is subjective" argument with toys.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
So do you mind stopping with the BS and lies that would be greate.

greate is spelled great

Dyslexia. Easy to target other peoples spelling and grammar when there is no argument left.

Not to be rude, but most browsers have a built in spell check you can use to correct your posts before posting. Complete with red squiggles of doom!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ForceChoke wrote:
People have been TELLING me what to think.

The only "telling" I can see in this thread is you telling people what they're posting instead of people knowing what they're actually posting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know if we can really call plastic toy soldier models "art". I'd argue the paint job and conversions would be more a show of artistry than the models themselves.
I'm not trying to bash on the sculpts or sculptors of course, but those serve as the medium for people to express their ideas with, making them, in my view, as much "art" as a blank canvas is.

That is like calling "paint by numbers" not art.
It is a creative endeavor even though it is at it's most basic form.
I have made many a conversion I am quite proud of that I would not call art... ever.
I find the more difficult something looks to an individual, the more likely they will call it art.

That's fair. I just mean it's hard to use the "art is subjective" argument with toys.

It's very rude thanks. Do you think I enjoy having words swim on the page or appear backwards even when they are underlined by red squiggles. You're now in the realm of insulting people with Disabilities. Don't go down that road. It's disgusting.

 ForceChoke wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
So do you mind stopping with the BS and lies that would be greate.

greate is spelled great

Dyslexia. Easy to target other peoples' spelling and grammar when there is no argument left.

I would apologize, but truth be told, I'm bored. You are watching this thread refreshing every thirty seconds. Consider watching some videos on youtube or crunchyroll in between refreshes. Personally, it is well established (IMO to myself at least) that I have minimum taste. I paint lousy. I still talk 40k even though I haven't played a game in years. Oh, and I play Tau.

I found this gem on youtube yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DTIzzf6ncg
I think it describes me, it may describe you as well.

If you do have dyslexia, have you considered text to speech and speech to text?

 ForceChoke wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
So do you mind stopping with the BS and lies that would be greate.

greate is spelled great

Dyslexia. Easy to target other peoples spelling and grammar when there is no argument left.

Not to be rude, but most browsers have a built in spell check you can use to correct your posts before posting. Complete with red squiggles of doom!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ForceChoke wrote:
People have been TELLING me what to think.

The only "telling" I can see in this thread is you telling people what they're posting instead of people knowing what they're actually posting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know if we can really call plastic toy soldier models "art". I'd argue the paint job and conversions would be more a show of artistry than the models themselves.
I'm not trying to bash on the sculpts or sculptors of course, but those serve as the medium for people to express their ideas with, making them, in my view, as much "art" as a blank canvas is.

That is like calling "paint by numbers" not art.
It is a creative endeavor even though it is at it's most basic form.
I have made many a conversion I am quite proud of that I would not call art... ever.
I find the more difficult something looks to an individual, the more likely they will call it art.

That's fair. I just mean it's hard to use the "art is subjective" argument with toys.

It's very rude thanks. Do you think I enjoy having words swim on the page or appear backwords even when they are underlined by red squiggles. You're now in the realm of insulting people with Disabilities. Don't go down that road. It's disgusting.

So suggesting tools to try and make things easier for you to communicate your ideas is now an insult.

I'm so glad you ignore all my posts pointing out that no one is actually attacking you to take insult with a well meaning suggestion of something that may help you.

I'm seriously assuming you're only posting in an attempt to try and see if you can get banned at this point. You've done nothing but attack people, name call, claim that everyone is wrong for their opinions and stances while claiming that you can never be wrong due to subjectivity, despite that an opinion based solely on emotions can be wrong.

Basically you're lashing out at everyone who doesn't agree with you, projecting your actions on those who don't agree with you, and ignore any valid point people make to rehash the same invalid argument time and time again.

So yes, this thread truly is useless and it'd die faster if you stopped dragging out a dead horse and telling us it can win the Kentucky Derby just because your subjective opinion says so.

The only "telling" I can see in this thread is you telling people what they're posting instead of people knowing what they're actually posting.

You're very good at twisting words. You're an outright liar.

 ForceChoke wrote:

The only "telling" I can see in this thread is you telling people what they're posting instead of people knowing what they're actually posting.

You're very good at twisting words. You're an outright liar.

I want a slow clap Ormoticon for this post. I love how my posts have shown examples of my claims, and yet I'm the liar. What a magical world you must live in.

RULE #1 - NOW.

A few people are VERY close to losing the ability to post on Dakka Dakka for a bit...

 ForceChoke wrote:
you're an abusive and insulting person that is albiest. And Prejiduce. So as far as I'm concerned you're oppionon is trash.

Quite untrue actually. I'm slowly losing my ability to see distant objects clearly and will end up being nearly legally blind in a few years and have a knee with no cartilage in it. Yet I wouldn't claim that someone saying I should wear glasses or recommending the lift to be "albiest". Tools to improve your quality of life and ensure you can communicate at the same level of everyone else is not "albeism", it's "equality". You choosing to not use those tools and then hide behind a label of persecution is when they're mentioned is hilarious though. That'd be like Steven Hawking not using his wheelchair and yelling at anyone who mentioned he'd have an easier time getting around if he used it.

And my opinion is "subjective" which, according to you, means I can never be wrong. So you aren't allowed to defame it in any manner, as per what you yourself have claimed.

 Alpharius wrote:
RULE #1 - NOW.

A few people are VERY close to losing the ability to post on Dakka Dakka for a bit...

Sorry I made my comment after I saw this.. I felt I was being attacked based on prejudice.

 Luciferian wrote:

Spoiler:

Last one is a conversion using a Rat Ogre and the Talos kit, but yet, the game is fully of things that make no logical sense if we even consider normal logic a thing that should be applied to 40k.

That isn't cartoony Luciferian. Those are classic*

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
you're an abusive and insulting person that is albiest. And Prejiduce. So as far as I'm concerned you're oppionon is trash.

Quite untrue actually. I'm slowly losing my ability to see distant objects clearly and will end up being nearly legally blind in a few years and have a knee with no cartilage in it. Yet I wouldn't claim that someone saying I should wear glasses or recommending the lift to be "albiest". Tools to improve your quality of life and ensure you can communicate at the same level of everyone else is not "albeism", it's "equality". You choosing to not use those tools and then hide behind a label of persecution is when they're mentioned is hilarious though. That'd be like Steven Hawking not using his wheelchair and yelling at anyone who mentioned he'd have an easier time getting around if he used it.

And my opinion is "subjective" which, according to you, means I can never be wrong. So you aren't allowed to defame it in any manner, as per what you yourself have claimed.

I am trying to be polite but you continue to insult and belittle and shame and be prejudice why SHOULD I have to use those tools? You make grammar mistakes everyone does. Pointing it out is rude. please stop with the prejudice attacks.

I am asking you to stop. AS in NO means NO. Please desist with your harassment. You claiming it's hilarious is also insulting. It's Belittling, and harassment.

And for the record, I usually EDIT after the fact.
'
I was also talking about "Subjective Feelings about ART not about you're abusive prejudice behavior. Being Subjective. Which has crossed a line. Literally you doubled down with your prejudice and insults.

the only person being insulting and belittling I see here forcechoke is you. might wanna chill out man.

The particular paintjob they've chosen to use for the new Death Guard stuff does lean more heavily on the brighter, cleaner side compared to some of the muddier paintjobs that are popular. It does look influenced by World of Warcraft.

I think it's a pretty good take on the forces of Nurgle. Sure, a little more slime here and a little more gunk there would be good. Put some shine to the models! But a fundamentally cheerful and dramatic paintjob is very fitting. It isn't the only way to paint plague marines and it isn't what everyone is going to like but it's one of the aspects of the legion that you can choose to emphasise or to deemphasise as you see fit. I'm all for multiple interpretations of what something in 40k looks like.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know if we can really call plastic toy soldier models "art". I'd argue the paint job and conversions would be more a show of artistry than the models themselves.

I'm not trying to bash on the sculpts or sculptors of course, but those serve as the medium for people to express their ideas with, making them, in my view, as much "art" as a blank canvas is.

Art definition

1. the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
"the art of the Renaissance"

synonyms: fine art, artwork
"he studied art"

•works produced by human creative skill and imagination.
"his collection of modern art"

synonyms: fine art, artwork
"he studied art"

•creative activity resulting in the production of paintings, drawings, or sculpture.
"she's good at art"

2. the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance.
"the visual arts"

3. subjects of study primarily concerned with the processes and products of human creativity and social life, such as languages, literature, and history (as contrasted with scientific or technical subjects).
"the belief that the arts and sciences were incompatible"

4. a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice.
"the art of conversation"

synonyms: skill, craft, technique, knack, facility, ability, know-how
"the art of writing"

I would think the sculptures themselves are more art than what I usually do to them with paint. just because a thing is mass produced does not mean it did not take a lot of skill, and creativity to create. if a person makes an amazing statue and then makes a mold of it and sells reproductions it might make it less valuable from a monetary standpoint, but it certainly still took skill to make that original.

On the paint job and what it means to the person. my minis are usually just painted to decent table top standard. I do a base coat, some shading, some wash and a few metal bits here and there. those I would agree are not really "art" to me, but to somebody else they might do the same thing and feel they are fully expressing themselves. On the other hand I have some models where I do multiple layers of blending, use more than 10-15 colors and shades per model and really make them centerpieces for my army, those I would call works of art (subjective sure but to me they have meaning and express my creativity and skill with airbrushes, paint and normal brush). that said it does not mean others have to think that it is a piece of art. I see plenty of "art" that I do not get but it is still art to the creator and some people so I just smile and move on with life.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't know if we can really call plastic toy soldier models "art". I'd argue the paint job and conversions would be more a show of artistry than the models themselves.

I'm not trying to bash on the sculpts or sculptors of course, but those serve as the medium for people to express their ideas with, making them, in my view, as much "art" as a blank canvas is.

Art definition

1. the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
"the art of the Renaissance"

synonyms: fine art, artwork
"he studied art"

•works produced by human creative skill and imagination.
"his collection of modern art"

synonyms: fine art, artwork
"he studied art"

•creative activity resulting in the production of paintings, drawings, or sculpture.
"she's good at art"

2. the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance.
"the visual arts"

3. subjects of study primarily concerned with the processes and products of human creativity and social life, such as languages, literature, and history (as contrasted with scientific or technical subjects).
"the belief that the arts and sciences were incompatible"

4. a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice.
"the art of conversation"

synonyms: skill, craft, technique, knack, facility, ability, know-how
"the art of writing"

I would think the sculptures themselves are more art than what I usually do to them with paint. just because a thing is mass produced does not mean it did not take a lot of skill, and creativity to create. if a person makes an amazing statue and then makes a mold of it and sells reproductions it might make it less valuable from a monetary standpoint, but it certainly still took skill to make that original.

On the paint job and what it means to the person. my minis are usually just painted to decent table top standard. I do a base coat, some shading, some wash and a few metal bits here and there. those I would agree are not really "art" to me, but to somebody else they might do the same thing and feel they are fully expressing themselves. On the other hand I have some models where I do multiple layers of blending, use more than 10-15 colors and shades per model and really make them centerpieces for my army, those I would call works of art (subjective sure but to me they have meaning and express my creativity and skill with airbrushes, paint and normal brush). that said it does not mean others have to think that it is a piece of art. I see plenty of "art" that I do not get but it is still art to the creator and some people so I just smile and move on with life.

That's a fair stance. I just don't usually put them in the same mental category as different forms of art. But that's just me.

There is not liking Justin Beebs because you just don't like him.

And then there is not liking Justin Beebs because he does not have the talent and skill to be good. His vocal range is poor, the composition of his music is childish in it's simplicity and execution. The artistic merit of his body of work is shallow and hollow and adds nothing to the musical scene of value.

One of those opinions has merit. The other is one person just spouting off with nothing of value to contribute. Which one sound like ForceChoke?