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 Galas wrote:
That isn't cartoony Luciferian. Those are classic*

Spoiler:

Classic: A word used to describe things that one likes by the only atribute of being the first he had experience when he began to look at some form of art or artistic expresion.

I happen to agree, but partly because the over-the-top ludicrousness of some of the art and models is what initially drew me to 40k

 Lance845 wrote:
There is not liking Justin Beebs because you just don't like him.

And then there is not liking Justin Beebs because he does not have the talent and skill to be good. His vocal range is poor, the composition of his music is childish in it's simplicity and execution. The artistic merit of his body of work is shallow and hollow and adds nothing to the musical scene of value.

One of those opinions has merit. The other is one person just spouting off with nothing of value to contribute. Which one sound like ForceChoke?

Both of those arguments have merit. One is less descriptive one is more descriptive. I also gave reasons why I disliked the artwork. Because it looked cartoonish to me. I gave reason and evidence. Why the personal attacks is all I was ever saying. Why are you farming me out to be a bad person ?

 ForceChoke wrote:
This is exactly the BS I'm talking about. Your statement is inflammatoire.

Then what do you call this?

 ForceChoke wrote:
The argument that war game is for children does not hold a lot of water with some older fans. None of the older fans want the game to be An MOBA. Or an Overwatch Game. Or whatever multiplayer the kids are playing today.

First of all, I am an "older fan". I've been into 40k since 4th edition, so for about 11 years now. I'm 30. And I'm telling you 40k does have, and has always had, elements and imagery that were designed to appeal to children, most notably young teens going through that phase where they think they're more "mature" than the adults around them. You know what I'm talking about, we've all been there. They like "edgy" or "dark" music, movies, video games, etc. If they played Overwatch, using your example, they would probably think Reaper was the coolest character in the roster because he wears a black trench coat and a skull mask and acts "scary", or the "Joker-esque" Junkrat who just wants to blow everything up because "Anarchy, yeah! Eff the system!", whereas us older gamers might have more appreciation for characters like Tracer or D.va because they're cute (some people find Tracer's bubbly attitude annoying, but whatever), or maybe even identify with Soldier: 76 because we too are old and tired of everyone's crap.

Second, I think most of you guys are splitting hairs: insisting the game is not made "for kids" but then later admitting that it has elements that pre-teens find "cool" and that part of GW's demographic are boys aged 14-16 who can get their parents (who themselves probably grew up with tabletop games) to help them buy models. Those are kids. Like it's not even up for debate, legally people in that age range are children.

Finally, if part of your argument is that 40k's central focus being violent themes like war and death is part of what makes it an "adult's game", then how does this not also apply to a game like Overwatch? Widowmaker's backstory, for example, is that she was kidnapped by a terrorist organization that had been aiming to kill her husband but failed, brainwashed/indoctrinated by them, then allowed to be "rescued" by Overwatch. Shortly after she kills her own husband in his sleep, returns to the organization and becomes one of their operatives, where she is tortured and experimented on until she has no memory of her past life, and her skin becomes purple because they've slowed her heart rate way down to make her a better marksman/killer. At one point she assassinates an omnic monk and pacifist who's trying to promote peace, which Tracer fails to prevent. There's also the whole human/omnic conflict in general which is probably a bit too "real" and has parallels to terrible events in real life, like apartheid. I won't even get into Genji and Hanzo's backstory...

Sounds like pretty mature themes for a "kiddie game" to me. And then there's the fact that the gameplay centers entirely around killing the other team, with guns, fighting over objectives...like on one map you're escorting an EMP to the subway which is going to basically kill the omnic population in the city, if I'm not mistaken, and the other team is trying to stop you.

You could do the same with MOBAs. Probably half or more of League of Legends roster of characters are assassins and killers, one of which is a chimeric specter whose sole purpose is to lead an army of ghosts and apparitions against the living on an annual basis and reap their souls. Kinda like Halloween, except instead of going out for candy you get murdered by ghosts every year.

In any case though, I would actually agree with you, they're games that are still designed to be kid-friendly with cartoonish graphics. Kinda like 40k has always been, in fact! Oh yeah, if you dig real deep into the "fluff" you'll probably find some stuff that might be "disturbing" to younger minds, but as I pointed out, the same is probably true for Overwatch and most kids playing either don't realize or just don't care because it's popular and fun. When you see 40k played on a table and don't know anything else about the game, regardless of what edition you came into it, it looks cartoony because you're using brightly-colored models with exaggerated proportions and goofy-looking space tanks and walkers.

 ForceChoke wrote:
You could paint the thing entirely black And I would still say the aesthetic is Cartoonish.

Fair enough. All I've been trying to say is that the game's always kinda been that way. Whether or not it's getting worse might be debatable, but then again every time I look at the old models and artwork I think "Yeah, things could be way worse."

 ForceChoke wrote:
I stand by my statement that the character assasination and manipulation by the fanboys here is insane. Control freaks much? You litteraly said "unless you say exactly my view point you're immature.

The feth are you talking about? And no one "literally" said that, either.

 ForceChoke wrote:
I am not saying no to being challanged. Sure go ahead say" I think it's not cartoonish. "

But there was no challenge. I was simply insulted told my subjective view point was baseless then told unless I accept that I'm wrong.

I think you're getting too hung up on one or two posts in particular.

 ForceChoke wrote:
And saying it's objectivly false is just more being a controll freak. "Grim Dark" has been the standard. Visceral terrifying and hopeless. Is what the game is billed as.

I think that's part of the point you're missing, though. In my eyes, and to some others, that "grimdark" thing is kinda childish. Everything is "visceral, terrifying and hopeless"...to the point of absurdity. It's over-the-top and becomes silly, and almost feels like a parody. Which is appropriate because this is apparently what the original game was designed to be in the first place, it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

Hell, even the game's tagline "...there is only war" is silly. How can there be only war? So no one in this universe lives a normal life, it's all war? How do all their cities and war machines get built in the first place? Who mines the resources? Where does all the food come from that feeds the soldiers, are there still farmers in the grim, dark future? Do people still date or have sex? How do you make new people to replace all the dead ones? Do people still drive cars? Are there still companies selling gak or is everything rationed out by the Imperium? Is fast food still a thing? Do cheeseburgers still exist?

 ForceChoke wrote:
You may feel that your subjective oppion is the only right anwser.

Who's saying that?!

BrianDavion wrote:
the only person being insulting and belittling I see here forcechoke is you. might wanna chill out man.

And I feel this is bandwagon syndrome Did I accidentally insult your friend by disagreeing with them? I have done nothing but counterpoint the assertion that I am being rude and Immature unless I agreed with "It's the Paint Job that only makes it Cartoonish" When my opinion which as stated many many times was entirely subjective. Was "THE MODEL LOOKS CARTOONISH NO MATTER HOW YOU PAINT IT"

I feel this is a character attack. I think it's rude and I dislike being pushed in that way.

Please desist with the character attacks and harassment. I have been told what to say. And if I don't agree I am rude and immature. I have been insulted for having a differing viewpoint.

Please tell me how being defensive and disagreeing with being told what to think is Insulting and Belittling.

Because I don't see your point at all.

I feel it's disgusting to bandwagon on top of someone simply because you think they are attacking your hobby. I still love 40k.. Nor am I trying to be rude. Only defend myself against baseless character attacks rude behavior and control freaks and trolls.

SO one last time PLEASE DESIST WITH YOUR HARRASMENT.

A mod did point out that telling people to off was rude however I will not do that again. I am only pointing out that I have done nothing wrong except that small error. Only that I have disagreed with being TOLD what to think. I have given examples of this.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:
This is exactly the BS I'm talking about. Your statement is inflammatoire.

Then what do you call this?

 ForceChoke wrote:
The argument that war game is for children does not hold a lot of water with some older fans. None of the older fans want the game to be An MOBA. Or an Overwatch Game. Or whatever multiplayer the kids are playing today.

First of all, I am an "older fan". I've been into 40k since 4th edition, so for about 11 years now. I'm 30. And I'm telling you 40k does have, and has always had, elements and imagery that were designed to appeal to children, most notably young teens going through that phase where they think they're more "mature" than the adults around them. You know what I'm talking about, we've all been there. They like "edgy" or "dark" music, movies, video games, etc. If they played Overwatch, using your example, they would probably think Reaper was the coolest character in the roster because he wears a black trench coat and a skull mask and acts "scary", or the "Joker-esque" Junkrat who just wants to blow everything up because "Anarchy, yeah! Eff the system!", whereas us older gamers might have more appreciation for characters like Tracer or D.va because they're cute (some people find Tracer's bubbly attitude annoying, but whatever), or maybe even identify with Soldier: 76 because we too are old and tired of everyone's crap.

Second, I think most of you guys are splitting hairs: insisting the game is not made "for kids" but then later admitting that it has elements that pre-teens find "cool" and that part of GW's demographic are boys aged 14-16 who can get their parents (who themselves probably grew up with tabletop games) to help them buy models. Those are kids. Like it's not even up for debate, legally people in that age range are children.

Finally, if part of your argument is that 40k's central focus being violent themes like war and death is part of what makes it an "adult's game", then how does this not also apply to a game like Overwatch? Widowmaker's backstory, for example, is that she was kidnapped by a terrorist organization that had been aiming to kill her husband but failed, brainwashed/indoctrinated by them, then allowed to be "rescued" by Overwatch. Shortly after she kills her own husband in his sleep, returns to the organization and becomes one of their operatives, where she is tortured and experimented on until she has no memory of her past life, and her skin becomes purple because they've slowed her heart rate way down to make her a better marksman/killer. At one point she assassinates an omnic monk and pacifist who's trying to promote peace, which Tracer fails to prevent. There's also the whole human/omnic conflict in general which is probably a bit too "real" and has parallels to terrible events in real life, like apartheid. I won't even get into Genji and Hanzo's backstory...

Sounds like pretty mature themes for a "kiddie game" to me. And then there's the fact that the gameplay centers entirely around killing the other team, with guns, fighting over objectives...like on one map you're escorting an EMP to the subway which is going to basically kill the omnic population in the city, if I'm not mistaken, and the other team is trying to stop you.

You could do the same with MOBAs. Probably half or more of League of Legends roster of characters are assassins and killers, one of which is a chimeric specter whose sole purpose is to lead an army of ghosts and apparitions against the living on an annual basis and reap their souls. Kinda like Halloween, except instead of going out for candy you get murdered by ghosts every year.

In any case though, I would actually agree with you, they're games that are still designed to be kid-friendly with cartoonish graphics. Kinda like 40k has always been, in fact! Oh yeah, if you dig real deep into the "fluff" you'll probably find some stuff that might be "disturbing" to younger minds, but as I pointed out, the same is probably true for Overwatch and most kids playing either don't realize or just don't care because it's popular and fun. When you see 40k played on a table and don't know anything else about the game, regardless of what edition you came into it, it looks cartoony because you're using brightly-colored models with exaggerated proportions and goofy-looking space tanks and walkers.

 ForceChoke wrote:
You could paint the thing entirely black And I would still say the aesthetic is Cartoonish.

Fair enough. All I've been trying to say is that the game's always kinda been that way. Whether or not it's getting worse might be debatable, but then again every time I look at the old models and artwork I think "Yeah, things could be way worse."

 ForceChoke wrote:
I stand by my statement that the character assasination and manipulation by the fanboys here is insane. Control freaks much? You litteraly said "unless you say exactly my view point you're immature.

The feth are you talking about? And no one "literally" said that, either.

 ForceChoke wrote:
I am not saying no to being challanged. Sure go ahead say" I think it's not cartoonish. "

But there was no challenge. I was simply insulted told my subjective view point was baseless then told unless I accept that I'm wrong.

I think you're getting too hung up on one or two posts in particular.

 ForceChoke wrote:
And saying it's objectivly false is just more being a controll freak. "Grim Dark" has been the standard. Visceral terrifying and hopeless. Is what the game is billed as.

I think that's part of the point you're missing, though. In my eyes, and to some others, that "grimdark" thing is kinda childish. Everything is "visceral, terrifying and hopeless"...to the point of absurdity. It's over-the-top and becomes silly, and almost feels like a parody. Which is appropriate because this is apparently what the original game was designed to be in the first place, it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

Hell, even the game's tagline "...there is only war" is silly. How can there be only war? So no one in this universe lives a normal life, it's all war? How do all their cities and war machines get built in the first place? Who mines the resources? Where does all the food come from that feeds the soldiers, are there still farmers in the grim, dark future? Do people still date or have sex? How do you make new people to replace all the dead ones? Do people still drive cars? Are there still companies selling gak or is everything rationed out by the Imperium? Is fast food still a thing? Do cheeseburgers still exist?

 ForceChoke wrote:
You may feel that your subjective oppion is the only right anwser.

Who's saying that?!

You have some good points. But I was responding to specific posts that is why I replied to them. It's easy to get deffensive when your being TOLD what to think by some people. Most of your posts have been reasoned well. And Mature.

 ForceChoke wrote:


And I feel this is bandwagon syndrome Did I accidentally insult your friend by disagreeing with them? I have done nothing but counterpoint the assertion that I am being rude and Immature unless I agreed with "It's the Paint Job that only makes it Cartoonish" When my opinion which as stated many many times was entirely subjective. Was "THE MODEL LOOKS CARTOONISH NO MATTER HOW YOU PAINT IT"

I feel this is a character attack. I think it's rude and I dislike being pushed in that way.

Please desist with the character attacks and harassment. I have been told what to say. And if I don't agree I am rude and immature. I have been insulted for having a differing viewpoint.

Please tell me how being defensive and disagreeing with being told what to think is Insulting and Belittling.

Because I don't see your point at all.

I feel it's disgusting to bandwagon on top of someone simply because you think they are attacking your hobby. I still love 40k.. Nor am I trying to be rude. Only defend myself against baseless character attacks rude behavior and control freaks and trolls.

SO one last time PLEASE DESIST WITH YOUR HARRASMENT.

A mod did point out that telling people to off was rude however I will not do that again. I am only pointing out that I have done nothing wrong except that small error. Only that I have disagreed with being TOLD what to think. I have given examples of this.

You don't think that calling people fanboys, creepy control freaks, manipulators, liars, cultists, and disgusting bigots is insulting or belittling?

 Talamare wrote:


Not to mention Slaanesh is a perfect example of a rather immature concept that wouldn't really attract anyone other than perhaps a horny teenager.

I suppose the Eldar must have all been teenagers when they murderfucked Slaanesh into existence.

Seriously though, 6th edition Daemonettes are still some of the most beautiful miniatures to date, so that comment is patently absurd.

All of the Chaos Gods are frankly kind of silly and one-dimensional, but then again that's because they each represent single, unfettered drives or emotions. Doesn't mean there aren't interesting things you can explore there, and it also certainly doesn't mean there aren't plenty of cringe-inducing ideas to discover as well

 Luciferian wrote:

 ForceChoke wrote:


And I feel this is bandwagon syndrome Did I accidentally insult your friend by disagreeing with them? I have done nothing but counterpoint the assertion that I am being rude and Immature unless I agreed with "It's the Paint Job that only makes it Cartoonish" When my opinion which as stated many many times was entirely subjective. Was "THE MODEL LOOKS CARTOONISH NO MATTER HOW YOU PAINT IT"

I feel this is a character attack. I think it's rude and I dislike being pushed in that way.

Please desist with the character attacks and harassment. I have been told what to say. And if I don't agree I am rude and immature. I have been insulted for having a differing viewpoint.

Please tell me how being defensive and disagreeing with being told what to think is Insulting and Belittling.

Because I don't see your point at all.

I feel it's disgusting to bandwagon on top of someone simply because you think they are attacking your hobby. I still love 40k.. Nor am I trying to be rude. Only defend myself against baseless character attacks rude behavior and control freaks and trolls.

SO one last time PLEASE DESIST WITH YOUR HARRASMENT.

A mod did point out that telling people to off was rude however I will not do that again. I am only pointing out that I have done nothing wrong except that small error. Only that I have disagreed with being TOLD what to think. I have given examples of this.

You don't think that calling people fanboys, creepy control freaks, manipulators, liars, cultists, and disgusting bigots is insulting or belittling?

When they actually are being thoose things. And I was responding in a reaction to being trolled. Insulted etc and being told what to say by control freaks

So no. I disagree with your assertion. Not everyone was being horrible. But a good number of people were being highly dismissive and controlling. I simply disagreed strongly and pointed out the abusive behaivor. You don't blame the person being mugged. For responding in kind with force.

Sorry but if you demand that I agree with you then I feel your controlling.

 Luciferian wrote:
All of the Chaos Gods are frankly kind of silly and one-dimensional, but then again that's because they each represent single, unfettered drives or emotions. Doesn't mean there aren't interesting things you can explore there, and it also certainly doesn't mean there aren't plenty of cringe-inducing ideas to discover as well

none more simple than Malal.. i wish gw would find a way to require that IP, the chaos god of... anarchy and chaos he was an absolute blast and I hope for the return one day. i think the simplicity of drives is what I like about some of the chaos models though the complexity of other renegades makes them interesting (see Alpha marines). you don't question what drives khornes followers, survival of the fittest, the strong beat the weak and that is all there is to it. as an army point, it at other army, try to get there, try to eat faces.

Actually, as far as the basic Plague Marines and Terminator Lord of the Starter go, most modelers of 5-10 years ago would probably have thought they were plenty awesome and full of suitable body-horror for Plague Marines, at least in a much darker color scheme with dark washes and corroded metals. The Sorcerer has a horrible cartoon look that seems much more than just the color scheme (like the awful face).

The guy with the giant bell I think I can make into a much better Sorcerer or Champion by replacing the godawful giant bell and backpack with a more standard chaotic one like the others have, cutting off the chains and bells and replacing the bell in his left hand with some sort of rusted power axe or staff. I think there's a good Ork power axe that closely matches the Terminator Lord's that might work, or one of the jagged Raptor chainswords/power sword with lots of corrosion effect added.

Look at any Plague Marine/Typhus art. It's been too, too long without Chaos troops that look like the new Plague Marines or the Chosen/Lord from Dark Vengeance or Raptors/Warp Talons. I'm actually fine with Chaos forces being over-designed as far as the baroque details go, to balance the nice, stark brutish lines of the Imperium.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Actually, as far as the basic Plague Marines and Terminator Lord of the Starter go, most modelers of 5-10 years ago would probably have thought they were plenty awesome and full of suitable body-horror for Plague Marines, at least in a much darker color scheme with dark washes and corroded metals. The Sorcerer has a horrible cartoon look that seems much more than just the color scheme (like the awful face).

The guy with the giant bell I think I can make into a much better Sorcerer or Champion by replacing the godawful giant bell and backpack with a more standard chaotic one like the others have, cutting off the chains and bells and replacing the bell in his left hand with some sort of rusted power axe or staff. I think there's a good Ork power axe that closely matches the Terminator Lord's that might work, or one of the jagged Raptor chainswords/power sword with lots of corrosion effect added.

Look at any Plague Marine/Typhus art. It's been too, too long without Chaos troops that look like the new Plague Marines or the Chosen/Lord from Dark Vengeance or Raptors/Warp Talons. I'm actually fine with Chaos forces being over-designed as far as the baroque details go, to balance the nice, stark brutish lines of the Imperium.

I like that idea, use a little scratching and drilling to add corrosion to a big choppa and then pin it in place for that stave. as for the head maybe a demon prince one or just a space marine helmet

I'm not sure I could save the Sorceror, as he has a horrible staff, dumb face that doesn't pull off what it's supposed to, and in the 3D spins on the GW site, has a really bad balance to his pose.

The Bell guy (Harbinger, maybe?) also has some bad forward balance to his pose, but at least has a passable helmet and I really think he can be saved with my aforementioned backpack and left hand weapon swap. And looking at the bitz for Warp talons, their power sword could look pretty cool and be a super simple conversion.



I'm hoping the basic Plague Marines will be available as cheap bitz like the Chosen from DV- they would make a really nice skirmish force, especially as they lack repeated poses, unlike the really lazy duplicate of the "Bolter guy" from the Chosen.

Guys, I think I translated the original post. I suspect the OP is actually an agent of khorne who is upset that there will be less blood spilled from hobby knives with these fantastic new models.

 Swabby wrote:
Guys, I think I translated the original post. I suspect the OP is actually an agent of khorne who is upset that there will be less blood spilled from hobby knives with these fantastic new models.

This is the insulting bandwagon crap I pointed out before. Stop it.

 Talamare wrote:
Not to mention Slaanesh is a perfect example of a rather immature concept that wouldn't really attract anyone other than perhaps a horny teenager.

Um, you seem to be confusing Slaanesh as a thematic concept with the ironic way that many gamers treat the fluff (which is basically "p0rn and boobs!").

Slaanesh is actually a key component of the Chaos pantheon because what it fundamentally represents at a metaphysical level is corruption of the soul and everything that is noble. The other Chaos Gods have been depicted as fearing Slaanesh because it is parasitic on their essence. So the good King who fears what will happen to his kingdom when he passes turns to Nurgle, the wise sage who has reached the limitations of his mortal cognitive capabilities turns to Tzeentch and the noble warrior who is consumed by the need for greater tests of prowess turns to Khorne. So Nurgle, Tzeentch and Khorne all gain a new follower but Slaanesh too has gained power because something that once represented nobility of the soul has become corrupted and perverse. Followers of Slaanesh simply tend to be the most solipsistic and self regarding individuals because if there is one vice that Slaanesh preys upon it is pride.

With regards to whether 40K appeals to kids, I think it always has. The thing is that teenagers in particular love more adult oriented content. When I was a kid we all loved violent 18/R-rated action movies. But we now live in a world of PG-13 content (although TV shows like Walking Dead are an obvious exception) which is interesting because adult content is more easily available than it has ever been. Whether you're a major film studio or GW, you don't want to limit your market by making content 'too' adult. So GW has to walk that fine line so as to not raise the eyebrows of the parents holding the purse strings.

 Luciferian wrote:
All of the Chaos Gods are frankly kind of silly and one-dimensional, but then again that's because they each represent single, unfettered drives or emotions. Doesn't mean there aren't interesting things you can explore there, and it also certainly doesn't mean there aren't plenty of cringe-inducing ideas to discover as well

The Chaos Gods represent...chaos. It's a metaphysical concept which is basically in the tradition of myth and allegory, similar to ancient religious texts and creation myths. It describes fundamental elements of human experience. The physical universe is inherently chaotic (although it also has a form and order to it) and so when consciousness emerges in the universe it has been shaped by that chaos. But consciousness also creates a new feedback loop within the universe because consciousness gives birth to intent. There's a reason why Nurgle and Tzeentch are grouped together and Slaanesh is the youngest God (aside from the fluff reasons). Nurgle and Tzeentch represent something more primordial (entropy vs evolution) which is an ancient process which predates advanced consciousness. Then as conscious intent emerges is layers onto these ancient forces as it seeks to commandeer the underlying processes and this manifests itself as the essence of an a corrupting force (a God). Slaanesh is the most advanced God because it first requires some form of higher value or transcendence to be subverted. I don't think it's a coincidence that Rick Priestley envisaged the most noble and powerful race (with its own Gods who are the manifestation of the most noble ideals of its culture) giving birth to Slaanesh. Slaanesh suggests that even if you achieve the highest realisation of the noblest ideals, you are not safe. At that point, if your curiosity is not sated, where else is there to go?

If anything the concept has become one dimensional because writers don't do anything interesting with the concept or turn Chaos followers into boring snarling pantomime villains (GW's lack of quality control with regards to its fluff is another matter). Of course GW in 2017 is very different from GW in 1987 but Rick Priestley was a well read and smart guy. He knew how to pull together material from numerous sources and transform it into a thematic setting that was cohesive and compelling. Yeah things have changed a lot over the years and more and more writers have got their grubby hands on the setting but GW has basically been feasting on all of Priestley's work for the past 30 years.

AGAIN:

 Alpharius wrote:
RULE #1 - NOW.

A few people are VERY close to losing the ability to post on Dakka Dakka for a bit...

LAST TIME.

If you can't be polite when posting - then DO NOT POST.

carldooley wrote:

 Thargrim wrote:
Problem with the new DG is they aren't disturbing enough. Not enough guts, maggots, gore, pus bubbles etc. The tentacles and spikes/horns everywhere is just cartoony and its too much on some of these models. I was a kid when I got into 40k. But I loved it so much because of how gritty and disturbing some of it was. By removing that they are in a sense tripping out older fans. I'm only 24 years old but I can definitely see a change in the tone/art of 40k. Especially when I got into it with the second iteration of chaos marines in 3rd ed, and later in 4th.

I still haven't totally forgiven GW for what they did to the Daemonettes and Slaanesh as a whole, then they butchered the Necrons fluff entirely. They have had some serious missteps along the way.

Then by all means, model them how you wish. Feel free to embellish your models with the viscera that you miss so much, but don't rain on the parades of the kids that you may play against in flgs because their headcanon for 40k doesn't match yours. If you want to, use Fantasy Catapults in place of artillery. Paint tits on your daemonettes. Paint your AM to look like Nazi SS penal platoons. Just restrain yourself from pointing out the genesis of your ideas.

And if an older player sees your conversions when playing you and says, "DUDE!" Grin, then go for a pint with him\her afterwards. . . regardless of who wins.
Have you ever watched 'Watchmen' with kids before? Do you point out to them that Dr. Manhattan's junk is swinging in the breeze the entire movie? Or do you let them enjoy the movie because that particular tidbit is unlikely to be noticed by them until it is pointed out (as it was for me)?

Yeah I can't see myself walking up to kids at the lgs and saying "back in my day daemonettes had stacks of titties!" Besides, I haven't set foot in a GW or LGS in over 5 years, and I can't see myself doing so because there aren't any around within reasonable drive distance.

NenkotaMoon wrote:Back when things were edgy.... *Remembers leopard print Noise marines*

I didn't mean THAT old, I was thinking more of the era where Karl Kopinski did most of the codex art covers.

These new DG are still good models, they aren't bad by any means. They just remind me of the DV Chosen, or they almost looked possessed especially the one with the maw on his face, and the other one from the previews with a toothy maw on his stomach. Here is an example of the artistic difference between what I originally liked and what we got now:







VS



There isn't a huge difference, but the last one looks more daemon infested, possessed or whatever. The top ones actually look decayed. The mk IV legs on the one also look good too, not sure why plague marines have to be only in mk III. A different paintjob on the new models can bring them closer to some of this artwork..thankfully.

well I have missed and have chosen to miss several pages of this thread...and it seems I am better off for it.

My take is that many things in the real world or in fantasy can be taken very cartoonish or very intense depending on the user. Whether it is Lord of the Rings novels, 90's independent comic book lines, Smurfs(is that a bad choice ), Harry Potter, Cthulu, or 40k.

Just look at some of the artwork over 30 years...or the short stories....and then look at other short stories or some of the really good novels/movies. Some of the stuff is light and fun and others are borderlining on better stuff.

Same in the game....you can make what you want of it....get all super life absorbing forget the real world crazy over it or take it as a quick way to blow some time.

It is what it is to you...and really not much else period.

peace mates

wes

Rosebuddy wrote:
The particular paintjob they've chosen to use for the new Death Guard stuff does lean more heavily on the brighter, cleaner side compared to some of the muddier paintjobs that are popular. It does look influenced by World of Warcraft.

I think it's a pretty good take on the forces of Nurgle. Sure, a little more slime here and a little more gunk there would be good. Put some shine to the models! But a fundamentally cheerful and dramatic paintjob is very fitting. It isn't the only way to paint plague marines and it isn't what everyone is going to like but it's one of the aspects of the legion that you can choose to emphasise or to deemphasise as you see fit. I'm all for multiple interpretations of what something in 40k looks like.

In fairness World of Warcraft has been influanced by 40k for some time as well. I mean you can't tell me this death knight armor doesn't make you think of a chaos Marine.

and that dates back to WOTLK

Considering reading 1d4chan was what got me into 40k, yea, 40k was already some cartoon of itself.

Thats because warcraft IS warhammer. The original warcraft game was being written as a warhammer game. They lost the rights to the property (or failed to aquire them) so they made up their version of trolls gave ogres a second head and changed hammer to craft.

The 40k and WHFB of the early-mid 90s seemed more cartoony but that's more in retrospect following two decades of grim dark aesthetic. There's a bit of contradiction there because on the one hand the setting and aesthetic was more tongue in cheek but also more brutal and violent. Kind of like an 80s Death Metal album cover...



Some of this simply reflects the more 'amateurish' nature of gaming at the time.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Galas wrote:
That isn't cartoony Luciferian. Those are classic*

Spoiler:

Classic: A word used to describe things that one likes by the only atribute of being the first he had experience when he began to look at some form of art or artistic expresion.

I happen to agree, but partly because the over-the-top ludicrousness of some of the art and models is what initially drew me to 40k

Exorcist tank got me into playing Sisters. Sometimes all it takes it something over the top to get an army going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer the"Death Guard in MkIII' thing: The Death Guard Legion was one of the legions that largely fielded Mark III armour prior to the aheresy, and while MkIV went to the traitor legions I imagine Mortarion choosing to stick with the tried and true MkIII at the time because of he thicker front armour which lended itself well to the way the Death Guard would unyielding advance towards their target while shrugging off incoming fire.

Plus the Death Guard were known for repairing any rents in their armour but leaving the scars of previous damge on them to show their foes ow much they've fought through and yet live. It was a strong psychological tactic that would have been lost if they mass switched over to the MkIV.

That or they didn't get a chance to switch before Typhus betrayed the Legion to Nurgle and got them all converted.

Model designers talk about the new Death Guard models:



Thought it might be interesting to add their thoughts to the discussion.

Am I an utter heretic for looking forward to being able to field a mix of some 4 different generations of nurgle models together?
I think the mix of old and new will give even more of that "organic" feel to them.

I am rather surprised how heated this got on the topic of opinion on artistic merit.
I figure if it is performed far better than I can do personally: it is all good.
Not like we do not have a bit of choice in the matter.

The new CSM models are bit more... detailed but it will just make any conversion you wish to undertake all the more exciting.
Or just take an older model and detail it up to the level you want.

Rule of Cool tends to be successful if you show a bit of work involved.

As to "disabilities" there are means to help improve on the challenges involved.
My youngest son is "colour-blind / challenged" however you wish to call it, but his shade paintjobs are freaking epic, there is something freeing about it.
My eldest has "high functioning" Autism which boils down to being in a hurry and never satisfied: speed painting is a whole new level with this dude.
I have ironed out my own dyslexia, it helps having a wife who is a "spelling Nazi", no mercy found here at home, lucky for her I find her cute.
Tolerance and finding your strengths is the order of the day for me.

I am actually looking forward to these models, possibly impatient.
If I do not like some element it will be cut off or modified, make it your own.
Cartoon or more realistic, they still make an excellent base to work from.

A game for kids and a cartoon style are two separate things. I started 40k when I was 12 years old, quit a few years later and rejoined the GW universe only in my mid 20s. At 18-20 I considered 40k a game/hobby for children actually. Now at 30 I appreciate the GW universe more than 15+ years ago There's nothing bad in something that is suited for kids.

About the cartoon style, I agree, many latest releases are awful. But the more cartoonish ones are the tau, IMHO a huge mistake, and the most horrible army available. It seems like they were released only to appeal some nerds that are fan of japanese cartoons (and they are a lot), those ones involving robots. Guilliman, Ynnead, Celestine are also extremely cartoon miniatures, not to mention the entire AOS catalogue.

Now, I don't want to criticize what other people like, and I certaily don't want to offend anyone (I can consider a nerd myself, and I think it's very cool to be nerds ) but criticizing the new start collecting box while a lot of other silly/cartoonish miniatures are out since years doesn't seem very appropriate.

Honest question. Whats has Celestine as... cartoony? She is a pretty well proportioned female without over the top desing.

well yeah Tau are pretty blatent "anime mecha" inspired.

BrianDavion wrote:
well yeah Tau are pretty blatent "anime mecha" inspired.

not anymore. they have the visual aesthetic admittedly, but they now play like every other army in the game.