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 Luciferian wrote:
Good god, you guys are so dramatic. What's the point of loitering around a forum making dozens of "muh immersions!" posts when you know it isn't going to change anything, and that you're either going to play 8th or you aren't? I mean criticism is one thing, but you couple of naysayers have already covered it quite a few posts ago.

Anywho, vehicles are either; a) an infantry delivery system, or b) a mobile weapons/support platform. In the former case, their job is done once they've dropped off their cargo and at that point you might as well just use them to soak up some overwatch; something which wasn't possible before. In the latter case, you now have to do something unthinkable: consider the positioning of your vehicles and keep them away from any type of garbage you don't want to get tangled up with! Why are you driving them through enemy infantry anyway?!

Actually, pushing enemy units out of objectives in the last few turns was relatively common

Good luck completely surrounding my tanks.

 jamopower wrote:
Especially the encircling thing will have a big impact. Driving a rhino full of troopers to the charge range of hormagaunts or other similar units is a very bad idea. It will stay there until someone comes to help, or the owner of the encircling unit wants to withdraw and shoot the tank. A big unit of 30 hormagaunts can in optimum scenario shut down most of the opponent army in single turn

The flying vehicles on the otherside will be very good. You can charge them at the end of your turn to safety (for example in to combat with enemy tank) as they can easily drive away from combat on their turn without too much impact. This will at least take a piece of opponents army from shooting or doing anything else constructive on next turn.

Flying your aircraft into tanks for safety, lol. That's so absurd that I'm just going to pretend it's not a thing and never do it. I could understand exploiting that in a tournament, but in a friendly game you're just a dingus if you do that.

I just have a bad feeling that the easily done "silencing" of tanks with disposable fast stuff will eventually make them not worth having in the army, except for the flying ones, that seem to be very useful for many things.

 jamopower wrote:
I just have a bad feeling that the easily done "silencing" of tanks with disposable fast stuff will eventually make them not worth having in the army, except for the flying ones, that seem to be very useful for many things.

Or you could, you know, keep your expensive ranged weapon tanks away from blobs of enemy infantry, or support them with your own infantry.

One additional trick with flying vehicles (a land speeder could be ideal for this) is to charge them along with your close combat squad to enemy so that there are more enemies closer to the speeder than your hitters, thus requiring them to pile in towards it and use their attacks on the high toughness, high wound, high save vehicle instead of your close combat specialists and as it flies, you can take it away if you need to do something else with it. It can also suck in the overwatch on it's way. Good combo could be raider/venom and wyches/incubi.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
I just have a bad feeling that the easily done "silencing" of tanks with disposable fast stuff will eventually make them not worth having in the army, except for the flying ones, that seem to be very useful for many things.

Or you could, you know, keep your expensive ranged weapon tanks away from blobs of enemy infantry, or support them with your own infantry.

Yes you can do that, but you essentially will need to bubble wrap them quite well and lose the mobility with that. Especially transports and stuff like land raiders will suffer from this. For stuff like predators it shouldn't be an issue. Add to this units like lictors that can stay hidden and then jump from anywhere if there's an unprotected vehicle somewhere (which sounds awesome, I have to say).

 Luciferian wrote:

 jamopower wrote:
I just have a bad feeling that the easily done "silencing" of tanks with disposable fast stuff will eventually make them not worth having in the army, except for the flying ones, that seem to be very useful for many things.

Or you could, you know, keep your expensive ranged weapon tanks away from blobs of enemy infantry, or support them with your own infantry.

At that point though, why are you fielding tanks instead of just running pure infantry lists? If tanks have to stay "in place" to be worth anything, you might as well be running infantry so you're saturating one defense-type (especially since most anti-infantry weapons are comparably short-ranged). Don't forget that Guard also get orders for their infantry to ignore being locked in melee, as though they were Tau or something.

For about the same cost as a Russ, you can get a maxed out detachment of 6x3 Mortar Teams and a company commander. Guess which one will live longer and do more damage for its points cost.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
And a is arguably not even that great in the first place, since destroyed transports now cause a Mortal Wound to 1 in every 6 passengers no matter what (models getting out of glanced vehicles are no longer a thing), you can't do move and disembark anymore, and transport prices were jacked up to the point you might as well buy more infantry in the first place.

Incidentally, trying to get a transport in range to unleash assault troops or as a linebreaker looks to be a surefire way to get surrounded, and for the game to turn into "bumpercar-hammer".

Flip side to things: tanks are generally more durable now than before and you won't risk your passengers until you lose all your wounds. No exploding on a lucky shot.

Also, tanks are faster than before in general, making them more useful than they used to be and making them trump many infantry units in terms of mobility on the table.

And while disembark after moving is gone, you get your full movement after a disembark now, effectively giving you an extra 3" to your movement after getting out, and you can still advance and charge after hopping out too. You also get to post the models up within 3" of anywhere on the hull so you don't have to run your tanks backwards just to get them into combat.

Multi-charging using tanks to tank overwatch (no pun intended) is a valid method to protect assault units who want to get stuck in, and some can even do Mortal Wounds on the charge (LRCs for example) before any actual combat occurs.

Basically for every negative point there is an alternative point to consider. For every drawback that vehicles have, they gained a lot in return.

Oh, and since grenades and melta bombs can't be used in melee, no more getting stuck with grenades.

If you find yourself in the situation where your tank is thus immobilized, I'm gna go on a limb and say you've been outmaneuvered. Also it takes more then 4 grots. Unit coherency is still a thing you know as is charge distance and consolidate. So you need multiple units (2-4) or obscene luck.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
And a is arguably not even that great in the first place, since destroyed transports now cause a Mortal Wound to 1 in every 6 passengers no matter what (models getting out of glanced vehicles are no longer a thing), you can't do move and disembark anymore, and transport prices were jacked up to the point you might as well buy more infantry in the first place.

Incidentally, trying to get a transport in range to unleash assault troops or as a linebreaker looks to be a surefire way to get surrounded, and for the game to turn into "bumpercar-hammer".

Flip side to things: tanks are generally more durable now than before and you won't risk your passengers until you lose all your wounds. No exploding on a lucky shot.

Also, tanks are faster than before in general, making them more useful than they used to be and making them trump many infantry units in terms of mobility on the table.

And while disembark after moving is gone, you get your full movement after a disembark now, effectively giving you an extra 3" to your movement after getting out, and you can still advance and charge after hopping out too. You also get to post the models up within 3" of anywhere on the hull so you don't have to run your tanks backwards just to get them into combat.

Multi-charging using tanks to tank overwatch (no pun intended) is a valid method to protect assault units who want to get stuck in, and some can even do Mortal Wounds on the charge (LRCs for example) before any actual combat occurs.

Basically for every negative point there is an alternative point to consider. For every drawback that vehicles have, they gained a lot in return.

Oh, and since grenades and melta bombs can't be used in melee, no more getting stuck with grenades.

Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

At that point though, why are you fielding tanks instead of just running pure infantry lists? If tanks have to stay "in place" to be worth anything, you might as well be running infantry so you're saturating one defense-type (especially since most anti-infantry weapons are comparably short-ranged). Don't forget that Guard also get orders for their infantry to ignore being locked in melee, as though they were Tau or something.

For about the same cost as a Russ, you can get a maxed out detachment of 6x3 Mortar Teams and a company commander. Guess which one will live longer and do more damage for its points cost.

What kind of games are you guys playing that you're moving your long-range tanks all over the board, tank shocking infantry off of objectives as opposed to simply getting them in range from as far away as possible and using their firepower?

Earth127 wrote:
If you find yourself in the situation where your tank is thus immobilized, I'm gna go on a limb and say you've been outmaneuvered. Also it takes more then 4 grots. Unit coherency is still a thing you know as is charge distance and consolidate. So you need multiple units (2-4) or obscene luck.

Depends on the vehicle. A rhino should be able to be surrounded if you just get within 1" of it. Remember that you don't need to move to base contact and you don't have to move towards the enemy the closest route, you can first move the 3" pile-in bit closer to the enemy surrounding it a bit and then use the other 3" melee move to consolidate bit closer to the enemy (still not in base contact to do the same next turn). With 6" move you should be able to get some models on each side of the tank, thus surrounding it. And as you don't have to keep the coherency while you lose models, you can leave the important models to stand there if it's more important to stop the vehicle than to be able to move with you unit. Now change this to hormagaunts, which are cheap, fast, pile-in and consolidate double amount and are fearless when the end of the conga line is at synapse range, and you'll have a quite big buffer zone around the tyranid army where no tank wants to go. Sounds bit stupid, but that's how it goes.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

Cute meme, but you fail to consider moving the guys who got out of the transport closer after disembarking to better ensure they make fhe charge. Also command point rerolls are a thing too.

But you know, memes are only the straight truth and never, ever a satrical take on reality that negates facts or reasons for a swift knee jerk reaction to anything.

I'd still prefer that scenario over the mighty land raider tracking itself on a shrub.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

Cute meme, but you fail to consider moving the guys who got out of the transport closer after disembarking to better ensure they make fhe charge. Also command point rerolls are a thing too.

But you know, memes are only the straight truth and never, ever a satrical take on reality that negates facts or reasons for a swift knee jerk reaction to anything.

It's considered. You can't move through your own units; placing the Marines in front would block the Rhino from moving up front to that degree. Try harder.

I simply don't care about my rhinos that much
Oh, and i'm using a lot if jump packs again. Finally.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still prefer that scenario over the mighty Land Raider immobilizing to Grav.

FTFY. You silly servants of the False Emperor never thought to put Dozer Blades on them?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

Cute meme, but you fail to consider moving the guys who got out of the transport closer after disembarking to better ensure they make fhe charge. Also command point rerolls are a thing too.

But you know, memes are only the straight truth and never, ever a satrical take on reality that negates facts or reasons for a swift knee jerk reaction to anything.

It's considered. You can't move through your own units; placing the Marines in front would block the Rhino from moving up front to that degree. Try harder.

So place them along the side. There are more sides to a tank than the front and back...

Earth127 wrote:
If you find yourself in the situation where your tank is thus immobilized, I'm gna go on a limb and say you've been outmaneuvered. Also it takes more then 4 grots. Unit coherency is still a thing you know as is charge distance and consolidate. So you need multiple units (2-4) or obscene luck.

I don't actually think it's that hard. Boards are often such that a vehicle can only move in two or three directions -- impassable terrain or a board edge can block the others, so very often one unit will be able to trap a vehicle. It's also often going to be possible to get two units involved. For example -- and this is weird -- a typical flyer can move 60", so could move from almost anywhere to 1" directly behind the vehicle. Then it's charged with a trash unit from the front, which only has to pile in or consolidate 1" along its sides to stop it from being able to get 1" away from everything without moving through enemy units. This actually strikes me as basically the best play to try to make against a superheavy tank. I don't think it's necessarily bad for the game -- it's strategically interesting in its own way -- but it definitely seems weird.

On the other hand, tanks can sidestep now, so they don't have to worry about having to pivot to move in a different direction.

Most vehicles probably don't really need to be worried about getting trapped, though. That's only something an attacker is going to prioritize for things that can shoot after falling back. Most of the time the attacker is going to be happy just to have prevented them from shooting on their next turn. They can just be charged again next turn anyway.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

Cute meme, but you fail to consider moving the guys who got out of the transport closer after disembarking to better ensure they make fhe charge. Also command point rerolls are a thing too.

But you know, memes are only the straight truth and never, ever a satrical take on reality that negates facts or reasons for a swift knee jerk reaction to anything.

It's considered. You can't move through your own units; placing the Marines in front would block the Rhino from moving up front to that degree. Try harder.

So place them along the side. There are more sides to a tank than the front and back...

Which brings up the aforementioned scenario. The circle is complete.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd still prefer that scenario over the mighty Land Raider immobilizing to Grav.

FTFY. You silly servants of the False Emperor never thought to put Dozer Blades on them?

It wasn't an option. I'm also rolling out my twin heavy flamer razor backs, which will never be assaulting. They will force you to each the overwatch.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

Cute meme, but you fail to consider moving the guys who got out of the transport closer after disembarking to better ensure they make fhe charge. Also command point rerolls are a thing too.

But you know, memes are only the straight truth and never, ever a satrical take on reality that negates facts or reasons for a swift knee jerk reaction to anything.

It's considered. You can't move through your own units; placing the Marines in front would block the Rhino from moving up front to that degree. Try harder.

So place them along the side. There are more sides to a tank than the front and back...

Which brings up the aforementioned scenario. The circle is complete.

You disembark within 3" and then move 6". Tank move at a diagonal from the unit it,s move,ent as to not clog charge lanes against target unit. Ideally both units are within 3" after movement, but failing that, you get close enough to increase your chances and utilize your Command Re-roll to further increase your chances.

You know, or memes.

I am going to convert up a giant mammoth of a squiggoth to use as a battle wagon then claim it has an extreme phobia of tiny mice to explain why it suddenly freezes up when a grot get within whiffing distance of it.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I am going to convert up a giant mammoth of a squiggoth to use as a battle wagon then claim it has an extreme phobia of tiny mice to explain why it suddenly freezes up when a grot get within whiffing distance of it.

Well I'd hope you'd have proxy Deffrolla rules so you can step on that daft runt.

Besides, if that Squiggoth was a monstrous creature they'd also get locked in combat by a single grot.

ERJAK wrote:
In several hundred games of 40k played and several hundred more watched I have never, ever seen anyone bother to tank shock anything. Ever. And I've only seen 1 ramming. It just didn't happen and complaining about it is frankly ridiculous. Honestly the only embarrassing thing is just how desperate you are to get people to let you summon infinite daemons forever still.

Haha nailed it. I am all about this post.

I recently played a game where I shot a Lascannon down the barrel of a vindicator and got a "weapon destroyed!" result.

Even in this case, where the vindicators sole purpose would have been tank shocking and ramming, my opponent looked carefully at the rules, and decided it would create more value by perching on an objective and providing cover for ranged units.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

Cute meme, but you fail to consider moving the guys who got out of the transport closer after disembarking to better ensure they make fhe charge. Also command point rerolls are a thing too.

But you know, memes are only the straight truth and never, ever a satrical take on reality that negates facts or reasons for a swift knee jerk reaction to anything.

It's considered. You can't move through your own units; placing the Marines in front would block the Rhino from moving up front to that degree. Try harder.

So place them along the side. There are more sides to a tank than the front and back...

Which brings up the aforementioned scenario. The circle is complete.

It really doesn't though. Place Marines 3" from front right corner, move 6". Move Rhino 12" Both get a reasonable charge. Could one fail, sure they could do that no matter what if you are far enough away. But lets take your orks, can you guarantee they cannot assault you and get a good charge (max charge range 23", if you stay 24" away you aren't charging next turn.) but this would be true in 7e as well. If you set up Say 16" away, maybe you can charge, or you set up 24" away and if orks come toward you you charge, if they don't you get out and shoot cause marines do that.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

I'm pretty sure Baneblades have rules that let them keep shooting when they're locked in combat.

They actually don't. They have rules that let them shoot after *withdrawing* from combat...which is easier said than done when surrounded completely.

Actually they do. In addition to being able to shoot/charge after withdrawing from combat, they can shoot even if there are enemy models within 1", though not all of their weapons can shoot at those units within 1"

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
And a is arguably not even that great in the first place, since destroyed transports now cause a Mortal Wound to 1 in every 6 passengers no matter what (models getting out of glanced vehicles are no longer a thing), you can't do move and disembark anymore, and transport prices were jacked up to the point you might as well buy more infantry in the first place.

Incidentally, trying to get a transport in range to unleash assault troops or as a linebreaker looks to be a surefire way to get surrounded, and for the game to turn into "bumpercar-hammer".

Flip side to things: tanks are generally more durable now than before and you won't risk your passengers until you lose all your wounds. No exploding on a lucky shot.

Also, tanks are faster than before in general, making them more useful than they used to be and making them trump many infantry units in terms of mobility on the table.

And while disembark after moving is gone, you get your full movement after a disembark now, effectively giving you an extra 3" to your movement after getting out, and you can still advance and charge after hopping out too. You also get to post the models up within 3" of anywhere on the hull so you don't have to run your tanks backwards just to get them into combat.

Multi-charging using tanks to tank overwatch (no pun intended) is a valid method to protect assault units who want to get stuck in, and some can even do Mortal Wounds on the charge (LRCs for example) before any actual combat occurs.

Basically for every negative point there is an alternative point to consider. For every drawback that vehicles have, they gained a lot in return.

Oh, and since grenades and melta bombs can't be used in melee, no more getting stuck with grenades.

Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

You forgot to move the marine squad before charging. Don't blame the game for your carelenessness and poor positioning.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

theocracity wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Especially with the extra 9 inches of help sadly :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
The scalpel taken to detail in general this edition is hard to ignore at this point. Too early to call it the gandalf edition but grots and drones getting the full you shall not pass is one of many bridges too far.

Or - get this - don't ignore chaff and be aware of your positioning. You know - like how people clamored that tanks are weak to infantry in a city or up close?

You have to do something about that grot scrambling all over before it shoves something where it doesn't belong.

The loss of immersion for me is too great. Is there a vehicle class or size for you at which point you might think its a bit silly that a grot could stop it cold in its tracks? A rhino is one thing, a baneblade is pushing it.

I'm pretty sure Baneblades have rules that let them keep shooting when they're locked in combat.

They actually don't. They have rules that let them shoot after *withdrawing* from combat...which is easier said than done when surrounded completely.

Actually they do. In addition to being able to shoot/charge after withdrawing from combat, they can shoot even if there are enemy models within 1", though not all of their weapons can shoot at those units within 1"

Huh, missed that bit of Steel Behemoth. Enjoy doing the same with a Land Raider Redeemer...oh wait.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Tanks could move pretty fast in 7th though and lucky Explosions weren't actually that common (unless Orks/Dark Eldar); it was far more common for the vehicle to become a terrain-piece as it was stripped of Hull Points. Regarding using transports to soak overwatch, the following is also a possible scenario, especially when charging into terrain.

Cute meme, but you fail to consider moving the guys who got out of the transport closer after disembarking to better ensure they make fhe charge. Also command point rerolls are a thing too.

But you know, memes are only the straight truth and never, ever a satrical take on reality that negates facts or reasons for a swift knee jerk reaction to anything.

Can't exalt this post enough. If you didn't move your asm/csm/harlequins/whatever closer after you disembarked, you are doing it wrong.

And the whole argument about hormagaunts is ridiculous. There is literally one unit in the game that can make such a consolidation move, and therefore vehicles are broken? Come on! And frankly, horms really needed the help, so it's a neat trick if it works, but not something I bet is likely to be a major issue. I could be wrong, but we'll see soon I guess. And if it is really making it hard for you to forge the narrative, just imagine how hard he t must be to maneuver inside a tank when you have dozens of hormagaunts climbing all over the hull, choking the vision slits with their talons and choking the treads with their corpses.