Side effects of giving vehicles melee profiles:

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**PlaguedOne**

It's almost as if your units don't exist in a vacuum and they can be used to support one another while your opponent will be doing the same in an effort to undermine your plans.

A lot of these hypothetical situations seem to indicate a situation that would only really come up if the opponent outplayed you or you played poorly. At the end of the day, none of us have enough experience actually playing 8th to come to an informed conclusion.

**DarkBlack**

MagicJuggler wrote:
8th consolidates the rules for vehicles, replacing Tank Shock and Ramming with the ability to charge enemy units and attack on 6s. This has several side effects:

Vehicle vs Assaulters: In 7th, a vehicle that somehow survived melee could either disengage freely without penalty. At worst they could still fire. In 8th, unless you Fly or have special rules, you can't shoot if the enemy is in melee, and you can't shoot if you withdraw. A single Shield Drone poking a Land Raider can stop it from shooting for a turn.

Vehicle vs chaff: Tank Shock is gone. A single Hormagaunt can stop a Land Raider in its tracks, while 4 of them can surround it and lock it in place! Lest you think this is a preposterous scenario, you consider their speed and 6" pile-in and 6" consolidation let them outright surround it (and remember, there was no consolidation vs vehicles in 3rd-7th). Don't forget the defender chooses all casualties so you might not even get where you want to go anyway if you try to shoot or melee the zerglings in your way.

Vehicle vs Vehicle: in 7th, ramming automatically inflicted a hit on both models. In 8th, one vehicle can hit another while the other misses. Sure you could argue that one vehicle didn't get a "hit on a good spot" but isn't that what to-wound/to-penetrate rolls are for?

Abstraction or rule consolidation are one thing (replacing Fleet/Crusader/Fast/etc with a move profile) but this is rather enbarassing.

Right, because a vehicle literally surrounded by enemy combatants will never be restricted in any whatsoever.
Not to mention that games that try to take how everyone feels about how realistic every conceivable situation in that game can totally be playable and will in no way have too many rules that don't actually improve the experience of playing the game at all.

**theocracity**

MagicJuggler wrote:

Huh, missed that bit of Steel Behemoth. Enjoy doing the same with a Land Raider Redeemer...oh wait.

Enjoy getting overwatched by those flamestorm cannons and counter-charged by the Assault terminators it was carrying.

There are answers for most vehicle types to mitigate the worst case scenarios. They are either shooty and rely on support, fly and don't care, tough enough to sit and tank some melee, or fighty / transport units that are fighty. I don't think it's going to be that big of a deal.

**SuspiciousSucculent**

Point for consideration: monstrous creatures like a carnifex have always had a similar problem of being prevented from shooting/moving by a single grot. Why is that more acceptable than a tank suffering the same way?

TBH, I'd be fine with a rule that that gave vehicles and MC of sufficient size the ability to just push their way out of combat with weak units, but I would think it strange if only vehicles and not MCs could do this.

**MagicJuggler**

SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Point for consideration: monstrous creatures like a carnifex have always had a similar problem of being prevented from shooting/moving by a single grot. Why is that more acceptable than a tank suffering the same way?

TBH, I'd be fine with a rule that that gave vehicles and MC of sufficient size the ability to just push their way out of combat with weak units, but I would think it strange if only vehicles and not MCs could do this.

We have a winner here. Warmahordes does the same thing by allowing slams, throws and tramples.

**Lance845**

We have been using fly based off of what they told us Fly does but not actually seeing the "Fly" Keyword rule anywhere in the rules leak so far.

I think there must be some little column or page that describes what additional rules some keywords do and maybe Vehicle is one of those.

I agree that there are a lot of little oddities in the rules, especially when it comes to vehicles but it IS possible that the "Vehicle" keyword grants exceptions the way that Fly does.

That being said, Venomthropes and Zoanthropes have the Fly keyword. Can you imagine them assaulting a Dakkajet?

**AnomanderRake**

SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Point for consideration: monstrous creatures like a carnifex have always had a similar problem of being prevented from shooting/moving by a single grot. Why is that more acceptable than a tank suffering the same way?

TBH, I'd be fine with a rule that that gave vehicles and MC of sufficient size the ability to just push their way out of combat with weak units, but I would think it strange if only vehicles and not MCs could do this.

MCs also have non-poo melee attacks. They can be tarpitted, sure, but they can't be stunlocked out quite so easily by something a tenth their price.

What we really need is a lighter version of the Baneblade's Steel Behemoth rule that lets vehicles fire "defensive weapons" as pistols while locked in combat. Give them some way to do something about it other than making three attacks with their glorious 6+ WS.

**SuspiciousSucculent**

Lance845 wrote:
We have been using fly based off of what they told us Fly does but not actually seeing the "Fly" Keyword rule anywhere in the rules leak so far.

I think there must be some little column or page that describes what additional rules some keywords do and maybe Vehicle is one of those.

I agree that there are a lot of little oddities in the rules, especially when it comes to vehicles but it IS possible that the "Vehicle" keyword grants exceptions the way that Fly does.

That being said, Venomthropes and Zoanthropes have the Fly keyword. Can you imagine them assaulting a Dakkajet?

The rules for Falling Back in the main rulebook and the rules for Airborne on flyer units specify what Fly does.

**AnomanderRake**

Lance845 wrote:
We have been using fly based off of what they told us Fly does but not actually seeing the "Fly" Keyword rule anywhere in the rules leak so far.

I think there must be some little column or page that describes what additional rules some keywords do and maybe Vehicle is one of those.

I agree that there are a lot of little oddities in the rules, especially when it comes to vehicles but it IS possible that the "Vehicle" keyword grants exceptions the way that Fly does.

That being said, Venomthropes and Zoanthropes have the Fly keyword. Can you imagine them assaulting a Dakkajet?

There isn't a consolidated keyword section because most keywords don't have inherent properties attached to them, they're there for other rules to check for. We know what Fly does because the "Falling Back" rule under the Movement phase in the leaks contains the sentence "A unit that falls back also cannot shoot later that turn, unless it has the Fly rule.", which suggests to me that if vehicles had that kind of inherent protection that's where it'd be.

But yeah. There are definitely a lot of funny mental images that come out of the Fly rule meaning "hovering thing" as well as "thing that goes fast at high altitude". My personal favourite is the Monolith jumping up to swat airplanes.

**jamopower**

I had to dig up some models to check if it really is so Easy. So here is a demonstration what you can do if you get within 1" of a rhino with your charge. In the third photo there is a wych on each side of the rhino, thus it can't move.

I don't think this is a very hard move to do. Especially if you just want to make sure that 350 point Land raider doesn't shoot on next turn, the initial situation is enough

I don't mind it Otherwise, it's something that has always been done. Now it's just more effective and easier to do. Which I fear might mean that taking a Land raider might not be such a good idea as it first felt after seeing the stats.

**Breng77**

jamopower wrote:
I had to dig up some models to check if it really is so Easy. So here is a demonstration what you can do if you get within 1" of a rhino with your charge. In the third photo there is a wych on each side of the rhino, thus it can't move.

I don't think this is a very hard move to do. Especially if you just want to make sure that 350 point Land raider doesn't shoot on next turn, the initial situation is enough

I don't mind it Otherwise, it's something that has always been done. Now it's just more effective and easier to do. Which I fear might mean that taking a Land raider might not be such a good idea as it first felt after seeing the stats.

In your example though the passengers could still disembark and help to get it out of combat, which in reality will be what happens in most of these cases if players are smart, they will have nearby units to bail out the vehicle in this case.

**Martel732**

Surround my razorback. My DC will have a discussion with you about our lord and saviour sanguinius.

**jamopower**

Yes I know, but blocking that wouldn't be too hard either. This was just an example where the wyches "just made it". With just a model 1" from each of the front corners you can encircle it totally.

**Tactical_Spam**

DarkBlack wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
8th consolidates the rules for vehicles, replacing Tank Shock and Ramming with the ability to charge enemy units and attack on 6s. This has several side effects:

Vehicle vs Assaulters: In 7th, a vehicle that somehow survived melee could either disengage freely without penalty. At worst they could still fire. In 8th, unless you Fly or have special rules, you can't shoot if the enemy is in melee, and you can't shoot if you withdraw. A single Shield Drone poking a Land Raider can stop it from shooting for a turn.

Vehicle vs chaff: Tank Shock is gone. A single Hormagaunt can stop a Land Raider in its tracks, while 4 of them can surround it and lock it in place! Lest you think this is a preposterous scenario, you consider their speed and 6" pile-in and 6" consolidation let them outright surround it (and remember, there was no consolidation vs vehicles in 3rd-7th). Don't forget the defender chooses all casualties so you might not even get where you want to go anyway if you try to shoot or melee the zerglings in your way.

Vehicle vs Vehicle: in 7th, ramming automatically inflicted a hit on both models. In 8th, one vehicle can hit another while the other misses. Sure you could argue that one vehicle didn't get a "hit on a good spot" but isn't that what to-wound/to-penetrate rolls are for?

Abstraction or rule consolidation are one thing (replacing Fleet/Crusader/Fast/etc with a move profile) but this is rather enbarassing.

Right, because a vehicle literally surrounded by enemy combatants will never be restricted in any whatsoever.
Not to mention that games that try to take how everyone feels about how realistic every conceivable situation in that game can totally be playable and will in no way have too many rules that don't actually improve the experience of playing the game at all.

Are you saying that a Battlewagon with a Deffrolla should be halted entirely because some brave guardsmen surrounded it?

**Grimskul**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
DarkBlack wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
8th consolidates the rules for vehicles, replacing Tank Shock and Ramming with the ability to charge enemy units and attack on 6s. This has several side effects:

Vehicle vs Assaulters: In 7th, a vehicle that somehow survived melee could either disengage freely without penalty. At worst they could still fire. In 8th, unless you Fly or have special rules, you can't shoot if the enemy is in melee, and you can't shoot if you withdraw. A single Shield Drone poking a Land Raider can stop it from shooting for a turn.

Vehicle vs chaff: Tank Shock is gone. A single Hormagaunt can stop a Land Raider in its tracks, while 4 of them can surround it and lock it in place! Lest you think this is a preposterous scenario, you consider their speed and 6" pile-in and 6" consolidation let them outright surround it (and remember, there was no consolidation vs vehicles in 3rd-7th). Don't forget the defender chooses all casualties so you might not even get where you want to go anyway if you try to shoot or melee the zerglings in your way.

Vehicle vs Vehicle: in 7th, ramming automatically inflicted a hit on both models. In 8th, one vehicle can hit another while the other misses. Sure you could argue that one vehicle didn't get a "hit on a good spot" but isn't that what to-wound/to-penetrate rolls are for?

Abstraction or rule consolidation are one thing (replacing Fleet/Crusader/Fast/etc with a move profile) but this is rather enbarassing.

Right, because a vehicle literally surrounded by enemy combatants will never be restricted in any whatsoever.
Not to mention that games that try to take how everyone feels about how realistic every conceivable situation in that game can totally be playable and will in no way have too many rules that don't actually improve the experience of playing the game at all.

Are you saying that a Battlewagon with a Deffrolla should be halted entirely because some brave guardsmen surrounded it?

I'm imagining the Battlewagon's engine choking out on the dead bodies that got caught inside while it was crushing through the poor terrified guardsmen and its now stuck doing donuts while the guardsmen are trying to dogpile on it.

**MagicJuggler**

And what happens if that Deffrolla missed? Say a Genestealer Cult Magus cast Hypnosis on it or so. Is the driver magically hitting the brakes each time it would hit a Cultists instead?

What happens when two Rhinos collide head-on and only one Rhino hits?

**Point_blank**

Asmodas wrote:

And the whole argument about hormagaunts is ridiculous. There is literally one unit in the game that can make such a consolidation move, and therefore vehicles are broken? Come on! And frankly, horms really needed the help, so it's a neat trick if it works, but not something I bet is likely to be a major issue. I could be wrong, but we'll see soon I guess. And if it is really making it hard for you to forge the narrative, just imagine how hard he t must be to maneuver inside a tank when you have dozens of hormagaunts climbing all over the hull, choking the vision slits with their talons and choking the treads with their corpses.

If they ever 'fix' this hormagaunts should get a special rule that lets them carry on clogging up tank treads with their bodies. Commissars should also grant this ability to guardsmen squads.

**ClockworkZion**

MagicJuggler wrote:
And what happens if that Deffrolla missed? Say a Genestealer Cult Magus cast Hypnosis on it or so. Is the driver magically hitting the brakes each time it would hit a Cultists instead?

What happens when two Rhinos collide head-on and only one Rhino hits?

He unconsciously takes his foot off the gas as he turns slower, allowing them more time to dodge?

**jamopower**

I might be wring, but was it so that all ranges are measured from bases, except for vehicles where they are measured from hulls. As Falcons and some other skimmers have the rule that their base is ignored, going full RAW would therefore mean that if they are flying over 1" + the base height from the ground, which I think can be possible with the flying stands, they can't be assaulted by infantry as you can't get you base within 1" of the hull... Hopefully I remember incorrectly, because I'm sure someone will eventually try this somewhere.

**Luciferian**

MagicJuggler wrote:
And what happens if that Deffrolla missed? Say a Genestealer Cult Magus cast Hypnosis on it or so. Is the driver magically hitting the brakes each time it would hit a Cultists instead?

Maybe it missed? Have you ever tried to run someone over when they're aware of your intentions? It's not as easy as you'd like, especially when they've got a mind full of things you don't want getting out...

**MagicJuggler**

Luciferian wrote:
MagicJuggler wrote:
And what happens if that Deffrolla missed? Say a Genestealer Cult Magus cast Hypnosis on it or so. Is the driver magically hitting the brakes each time it would hit a Cultists instead?

Maybe it missed? Have you ever tried to run someone over when they're aware of your intentions? It's not as easy as you'd like, especially when they've got a mind full of things you don't want getting out...

I really hope you're not speaking from first-hand experience.

**AnomanderRake**

MagicJuggler wrote:
And what happens if that Deffrolla missed? Say a Genestealer Cult Magus cast Hypnosis on it or so. Is the driver magically hitting the brakes each time it would hit a Cultists instead?

What happens when two Rhinos collide head-on and only one Rhino hits?

The one that "hit" got a front corner smack in the middle of the one that "missed"'s front plate and staved it in, taking limited damage in return? (If you go over to your kitchen and smack a couple of eggs together I suspect you will have a very hard time finding a situation in which both are exactly as damaged as the other one, at least until you start smacking them together hard enough to utterly destroy both.)

(The to-hit/to-wound distinction is an abstraction designed to let us play the game with d6s and without complicated physics simulations, in the real world they're one 'roll'. "Did it hit in the right place to do damage?", not "Did it hit (full stop), then did it do damage?")

**Luciferian**

Also, if we're being pedantic about literalism and realism, how was Tank Shock any better when one guy out of the unit has a chance to heroically face down the tank and stop it dead in its tracks with an epically timed melee attack?

**AnomanderRake**

Luciferian wrote:
Also, if we're being pedantic about literalism and realism, how was Tank Shock any better when one guy out of the unit has a chance to heroically face down the tank and stop it dead in its tracks with an epically timed melee attack?

...I mean, if you want to talk the realism of Death Or Glory, I've seen it attempted in the game many times and only seen it succeed once, so it is kind of realistic. If you try that you get run over and go squish.

**koooaei**

If you can't kill 4 grots...i don't know man. Low save infantry's just so easy to kill with new cover rules.

**Point_blank**

Grimskul wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:

Are you saying that a Battlewagon with a Deffrolla should be halted entirely because some brave guardsmen surrounded it?

I'm imagining the Battlewagon's engine choking out on the dead bodies that got caught inside while it was crushing through the poor terrified guardsmen and its now stuck doing donuts while the guardsmen are trying to dogpile on it.

"Oi put dis thing in reverse one of dem oomans is still movin. If we don't squish dem the first time we can alwayz go back for annuver go!" I mean I can easily see ork drivers getting just as distracted as any other unit when engaged in close combat. Would a squad of guardsmen physically be able to stop a charging mob of mega armoured nobs if they were really intent on tearing up the Leman Russ behind them? But they're orks so of course they're going to kill the people in front of them. A trained space marine driver in a rhino should probably be able to keep moving forward though.

**MagicJuggler**

Luciferian wrote:
Also, if we're being pedantic about literalism and realism, how was Tank Shock any better when one guy out of the unit has a chance to heroically face down the tank and stop it dead in its tracks with an epically timed melee attack?

I think you just answered your own question there. Death or Glory was both an actual gameplay decision ("do I risk losing a hidden special") and narrative-forging: One lowly trooper rising to the occasion and risking life and limb to save his comrades against an armored behemoth moving with the force of a Mack truck, versus said behemoth coming to a halt Looney-Toons style against a Guardsman because it failed to hit said Guardsman despite visibly hitting said Guardsman.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

Baneblades can fire in combat. Specifically, it can target the units assaulting it with only its sponson mounted guns, but the primary armament can still fire at things further away than 1"

Also, surrounding tanks in melee, stopping them in place, and tearing them into pieces is a thing in this edition anyway.

Leman Russes have 72" of range. They don't and shouldn't be at risk of being encircled and locked in assault. Really, the same goes for Baneblades too. There's lots of guardsmen to keep the enemy away, even then.

**Luciferian**

Each turn only represents a few seconds anyway, so it's not like the vehicles are literally coming to a complete halt and waiting around for grots to beat on them with wrenches. They're coming in to run a couple of guys down; maybe they do or maybe their targets dive out of the way. Then when the rabble outside starts to bang on the windows with chainswords and choppas they turn or reverse to get some breathing room and come back in for another pass. Which is pretty much exactly what you would do in real life if you were trying to single-handedly run down a mob of people. Especially if you want to be doubly sure that none of them get away to speak to anyone...

**davou**

Stompas can fall back and still shoot too. And they are even allowed to walk over and through mobs providing they end their move clear.