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Yeah. Waiting for more reliable source for now but if true vehicle charging and grot screens are going to be nice.

SemperMortis wrote:
I don't know about everyone else but for me the problem isn't attacks IN CC, the problem is getting enough models INTO CC. So with that in mind the

Goffs trait of 1 Extra attack for every hit roll of 6 is kind of crap honestly (This btw is from BOLs)

I think this makes trukk boyz viable, smaller squads with higher damage output and speed.

SemperMortis wrote:
Bad moons with rerolling 1s....utter crap, so 36 loota shots go from 12 hits to an amazing.....14.

I think this is significantly better than the freebooters buff in most situations, good to have, probably won't take unless I'm taking a fleet of dakka jets.

SemperMortis wrote:
Blood Axes (My favorite Klan) is actually pretty good. Units can fall back, shoot and assault all in the same turn....this part is kind of crap, because realistically, what CC units do we have that don't have pistols? However the second part....Units ALWAYS count as being in cover. So now my Kommandos are walking around with a 4+ save, almost justifying their 9pt cost.

100% agree here, except the fall back and charge thing, that is actually the better half of rule. Being able to shoot at a unit after falling back from other units is awesome, re-charging gives you first attacks again, rebuff from Ghaz if he's around, allow you to tri-point a weak unit by charging past the unit that you just fell back from. This is easily the best thing that has been leaked.

SemperMortis wrote:
DeffSkulls: All Units have a 6+ invuln. meh, units also get 1 free reroll a phase for shooting/fighting. Not bad but honestly not that amazing.

KMK love this, no questions you paint your mek guns blue if this is true.

SemperMortis wrote:
Evil Sunz: Completely lacking in any kind of originality +1 to movement, advance and charges. Also units ignore -1 to hit when using assault weapons after advancing, All I can think of is the Shoota boyz and Bikers, but again, our shooting is already crap so unless that gets a buff in general I don't see that being all that useful.

as boring as this is, its probably the second best footslogging trait, and I'm tempted to agree with Jid in saying this might be the best for deepstrike considerations alone.

SemperMortis wrote:
Snakebites: These are probably going to be the new cool Klan for players. They get a built in 6+ FNP, whether it stacks with the Dokz buff we don't know yet but if it does, that answers the question of durability. If you can use all those saves combined you get a 6+ Armor save, a 6+ fnp and a 6+ Snakebite save (A Snave )

FNP for your entire army is just time consuming, basically giving you 16% extra wounds across the entire army? The numbers here might be too good to pass up, but then again painboys exist. I'd have to do the numbers in costing wounds per painboy etc. I'd probably never run this for time reasons alone.

SemperMortis wrote:
Finally....Freebooters: Units gain +1 to hit after you destroy an enemy unit....not bad but honestly, how often is our shooting killing an enemy unit?

even if this is army wide, you need a kill to get it started, and even then it's only a 16% increase (albeit thats better than reroll 1s), unless your entire army is shooting, you'd need less than 10% (give or take) of your armies shooting to kill a unit to make this trait better than bad moons.

SemperMortis wrote:
I honestly see a lot of ork players suddenly becoming Snake Bite fans or My personal favorites Blood Axes. the others are kind of lackluster except maybe the Evil sunz if our Warbikes/koptas/buggies get a big boost in durability/damage output I can see them being a real threat with that +3inch movement.

Blood Axes and Evil Sunz are probably the best two for green tide. I think if our shooting profiles haven't changed much (KMK still best to take etc) then deffskulls are the best shooting (with side benefit of rerolling PK swings), followed by bad moons depending on your type of shooting.

I believe these rumors, personally. They feel measured and balanced. But I guess we'll see.

Yeah, the rumoured klan traits are basically confirmed at this point as far as I'm concerned. There might be minor tweaks to them or some nuances in the wording that were lost in the video.

I guess it's also possible that GW does the same thing as with the Space Wolves warlord traits but considering the backlash that has gotten and the fact that felt more like a one-off mistake I'd say that's unlikely..

As people have noted though, klan traits are good but it's the possible synergy, or standalone prowess, with their unique stratagems that's really going to cinch the deal for a lot of people..

Also FNP is not really 16% extra wounds. Rolling 6, 2 and 5 for D3 weapon against boy is 100% useless. It's more true for say knights and even there 6+++ is not 16% extra wounds(close but not quite)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, the rumoured klan traits are basically confirmed at this point as far as I'm concerned. There might be minor tweaks to them or some nuances in the wording that were lost in the video.

I guess it's also possible that GW does the same thing as with the Space Wolves warlord traits but considering the backlash that has gotten and the fact that felt more like a one-off mistake I'd say that's unlikely..

As people have noted though, klan traits are good but it's the possible synergy, or standalone prowess, with their unique stratagems that's really going to cinch the deal for a lot of people..

Backlash is irrelevant. There was no backlash before they were officially told and at that point _ork codex was already done and already likely in shipping from china_. Ork codex rules were likely finalized early this year...

For me seems I'll be using evil sunz as core especially for teleporting(if it can be used to teleport multiple squads) and da jump for 8" charges and deth skulls with either goffs and bad moons for 3rd. Maybe get blood axes later.

Freebootas and snakebite I will skip.

I guess it depends on if they caught the space wolves mistake before the ork codex went to the printers. Obviously no backlash had happened at that point but I'm fairly certain GW would anticipate a lot of disappointed people.

Whether or not that is the case, it feels quite unlikely that the same thing would happen to the Ork codex.

Regarding the klan rules, I'm already set at Evil Sunz since that's how my army is painted and I don't want to play them in the "wrong" colours. However, considering most people don't really take issue with that it's a bit early to rule out some klans. Maybe snakebites get a super useful stratagem, like Veterans of the Long War or something, who knows?

Snakebites would have to get pretty darn awesome strategy to compensate for likely getting 1-2 turns less played than other klans! Albeit helps with less time limited enviroments but I have already hard time enough getting games over in time.

Yeah I'm probably going Blood Axe/Deffskulls - Greentide/KMK

Looks like I won't need to make any major changes in my list, maybe some HQ shuffle.

if i have these traits available for the tourney list i posted earlier (look at spoiler for list)(not in time but fun to think about) i would prefer the blooddaxes trait. everything is already speedy and most of my biggest damage dealers are skorchas (so dont really suffer from advance move and shoot). my whole morotecade gets cover from shooting (that combined with the kff bike meks and these guys get pretty hard) and then if the skorchas get stukk in combat they can quickly pop out and flame the enemy and get nice overwacth crispiness if they dare charge again.
not sure what stratagem i would use beside the "ramming speed" one, but only a few times since my list has few command points to spend, would probably do it for a single skorchas squad if i really want something dead (especially if the mortal wounds are calculated per model basis, might make this stratagem best for killkan and buggie squads because they are the few vehicle squads that have the most models).

Hehe I had been thinking of evil sunz killa kans(which I don't yet have painted...Guess I might need some more. Bit over dozen killa kans not enough it seems ) with that strategem. Teleport, 8" charge with 3d6" and then MW's in some capacity. 6 of them would fit in. Too bad deff dreads are separate units.

 hollow one wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I don't know about everyone else but for me the problem isn't attacks IN CC, the problem is getting enough models INTO CC. So with that in mind the

Goffs trait of 1 Extra attack for every hit roll of 6 is kind of crap honestly (This btw is from BOLs)

I think this makes trukk boyz viable, smaller squads with higher damage output and speed.

I don't see how 5-6 extra attacks are going to save trukkboyz. IMO, this is more interesting for deff dreads or nauts, since a single extra attack means a lot in their case. Also note that Thrakka will probably always have this trait. It would also be awesome for MANz, but -1 to hit on PK and saws is kind of a buzzkill.

SemperMortis wrote:
Bad moons with rerolling 1s....utter crap, so 36 loota shots go from 12 hits to an amazing.....14.

I think this is significantly better than the freebooters buff in most situations, good to have, probably won't take unless I'm taking a fleet of dakka jets.

Well when it comes to Goffs it's a bit of a stretch, you're right. No ones too excited about exploding 6s.

But Badmoons is probably better man.
Let's use only 4+ shooting for now. Badmoons adds 16*.5 hits, (super rough) so we're looking at 8% buff across the board.

Freebooters: after a unit is dead, we're looking at a 16% buff. Basically double.

Using your Dakkajet, let's say it wipes a squad to last man every turn, as the first shooter, killing the unit without morale needed. (ideal situation for freebooters). You need to shoot with at least another 148 Freebooter points to break even with Badmoons, then every point after that starts gaining benefit.

In that ideal situation, Freebooters sounds better. But I think in practice you might hit that ideal for 3/6 turns, and if you miss, or rely on morale to kill the unit, or overshoot to ensure you get the kill, all of these factors reduce the value of Freebooters. I think Badmoons will be better in practice across most armies and situations, unless you have like... 1500 points of shooting (even then I dunno mate).

 hollow one wrote:
Well when it comes to Goffs it's a bit of a stretch, you're right. No ones too excited about exploding 6s.

Well dunno. With nob banner making it potentially exploding 5's it could be good. Especially as generally by the time you get to charge orks are often <20 anyway so attacks aren't THAT plentiful. I don't see myself repainting my goffs.

(ironically goffs might be the klan for trukk boyz rather than evil sunz...)

 hollow one wrote:
Freebooters: after a unit is dead, we're looking at a 16% buff.

+1 to hit is not a 16% buff, it's a lot more depending on your starting BS. Going from 5+ to 4+ is 50% more hits.

re-rolling 1s is a 16.67% buff.

 hollow one wrote:
Well when it comes to Goffs it's a bit of a stretch, you're right. No ones too excited about exploding 6s.

But Badmoons is probably better man.
Let's use only 4+ shooting for now. Badmoons adds 16*.5 hits, (super rough) so we're looking at 8% buff across the board.

Freebooters: after a unit is dead, we're looking at a 16% buff. Basically double.

Most of our shooting isn't 4+ though. Only mek guns, flash gits and dakkajets are. You'll probably want to go all shooty with one of these traits, which would include a lot of 5+ units, who only gain 5.55% from re-rolling ones, but still 16.66% from +1 to hit.

You need to shoot with at least another 148 Freebooter points to break even with Badmoons, then every point after that starts gaining benefit.

That's usually less than one unit to outperform badmoons.

In that ideal situation, Freebooters sounds better. But I think in practice you might hit that ideal for 3/6 turns, and if you miss, or rely on morale to kill the unit, or overshoot to ensure you get the kill, all of these factors reduce the value of Freebooters. I think Badmoons will be better in practice across most armies and situations, unless you have like... 1500 points of shooting (even then I dunno mate).

Unless your army was all shooting units, why would pick either clan trait?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nym wrote:

 hollow one wrote:
Freebooters: after a unit is dead, we're looking at a 16% buff.

+1 to hit is not a 16% buff, it's a lot more depending on your starting BS. Going from 5+ to 4+ is 50% more hits.

re-rolling 1s is a 16.67% buff.

You are both right, you are using relative percentages and he is calculating absolute chance to hit gained.

Have you noticed that all ork clan traits are fluffy yet benrfit the opposite archetype the most?

For example:
Evil suns. Speedy, love light vehicles and trukk boyz the most.
Almost useless for trukks, and light speedy lists. Benefit footslogging boyz and large slow robots the most.

Snakebites. Brutish, like hordes of boyz, don't really trust vehicles all that much.
Boyz allready have access to fnp and i doubt that even if it goes to 5+ it's gona be worth bringing over other clans. Benefit large multiwound models the most. Like walkers, buggies, trukks...

Goffs. The largest clan that's famous for having tons of brutal nobz and meganobz.
Clan trait doesn't benefit meganobz and klaw nobz. Will only be used as a min detachment for Ghaz.

You can go on...

Very similar thing happened with Eldar traits.
Some were just darn weird as choices, others just about got away with it (fluff-wise).

 koooaei wrote:
Have you noticed that all ork clan traits are fluffy yet benrfit the opposite archetype the most?

For example:
Evil suns. Speedy, love light vehicles and trukk boyz the most.
Almost useless for trukks, and light speedy lists. Benefit footslogging boyz and large slow robots the most.

Snakebites. Brutish, like hordes of boyz, don't really trust vehicles all that much.
Boyz allready have access to fnp and i doubt that even if it goes to 5+ it's gona be worth bringing over other clans. Benefit large multiwound models the most. Like walkers, buggies, trukks...

Goffs. The largest clan that's famous for having tons of brutal nobz and meganobz.
Clan trait doesn't benefit meganobz and klaw nobz. Will only be used as a min detachment for Ghaz.

You can go on...

not sure I agree with you about Goffs...their core is lots of boyz and nobz with choppas/big choppas...get stuck in and give 'em a good proppa krumpin'...extra attacks on 6's in melee feels pretty fluffy to me

and snakebites are known for being abnormally tough even by ork standards...so them shrugging off wounds makes sense to me too...

and evil sunz just like going fast and being on the move...they're not all about the "kult of speed", which is all bikes/buggies all the time...so everything moving a bit faster than other orks, and being able to shoot while running, also feels pretty fluffy...

...is the problem that it's actually too accurate to fluff?

 Jidmah wrote:
Most of our shooting isn't 4+ though. Only mek guns, flash gits and dakkajets are. You'll probably want to go all shooty with one of these traits, which would include a lot of 5+ units, who only gain 5.55% from re-rolling ones, but still 16.66% from +1 to hit.

You need to shoot with at least another 148 Freebooter points to break even with Badmoons, then every point after that starts gaining benefit.

That's usually less than one unit to outperform badmoons.

In that ideal situation, Freebooters sounds better. But I think in practice you might hit that ideal for 3/6 turns, and if you miss, or rely on morale to kill the unit, or overshoot to ensure you get the kill, all of these factors reduce the value of Freebooters. I think Badmoons will be better in practice across most armies and situations, unless you have like... 1500 points of shooting (even then I dunno mate).

Unless your army was all shooting units, why would pick either clan trait?

Anything that's shooting at 5+ isn't really part of the conversation IMO, I would consider tank bustas and that's about it. So it was just easier to do a 4+ calculation. But I take your point, and it makes Freebooters better again, maybe they are comparable.

I'm not sure how to read your winky face... but you'll put your shooty in a shooty detachment (KMK and HQ will go in Deffskulls spearhead for e.g.) and your green tide in a Evil Sunz detachment or whatever. I know there are a lot of people who want pure shooty lists up in here, and all one clan coz its fluffy, but yeah... I want to win so I'm going to mix.

It is fluffy but it supports unfluffy lists the most.

I love (not really) that there are two streams of completely different conversations going on at once in here.

 koooaei wrote:
Have you noticed that all ork clan traits are fluffy yet benrfit the opposite archetype the most?

For example:
Evil suns. Speedy, love light vehicles and trukk boyz the most.
Almost useless for trukks, and light speedy lists. Benefit footslogging boyz and large slow robots the most.

Snakebites. Brutish, like hordes of boyz, don't really trust vehicles all that much.
Boyz allready have access to fnp and i doubt that even if it goes to 5+ it's gona be worth bringing over other clans. Benefit large multiwound models the most. Like walkers, buggies, trukks...

Goffs. The largest clan that's famous for having tons of brutal nobz and meganobz.
Clan trait doesn't benefit meganobz and klaw nobz. Will only be used as a min detachment for Ghaz.

You can go on...

Yeah, but that's an issue across the entire 8th edition.

For example, my Death Guard's Inexorable Advance allows me to move and shoot heavy weapons, advance and shoot assault weapons and fire rapid fire at 18".
This results in Death Guard having some of the most mobile dreads and troops across all chaos marines. Add in the nurgle tree and the blightspawn and you have plague marines outrunning raptors.

GW (and many players) have yet to learn that rules become fluffy from how they play, not from how they are read in the book.

That said, I think the assault weapon add-on for Evil Suns kind of saves it for them. Bikes, nob bikers (should they stay around), koptas, battlewagons, chinorks and probably the new buggies are all loaded with assault weapons, so it's still a good trait to pick for an Evil Suns army - unlike Eldar, where Biel Tan isn't even the second best trait for their kind of army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hollow one wrote:
I'm not sure how to read your winky face... but you'll put your shooty in a shooty detachment (KMK and HQ will go in Deffskulls spearhead for e.g.) and your green tide in a Evil Sunz detachment or whatever. I know there are a lot of people who want pure shooty lists up in here, and all one clan coz its fluffy, but yeah... I want to win so I'm going to mix.

I think we agree that deff skulls are probably going to be the best clan for any shooting unit that doesn't throw down tons of dice like lootas or flash gits.

Shooty support elements tend to be anti-tank weapons, which have few shots. So I guess a multi-klan Waaagh! would probably go for Evil Suns/Bloodaxe for the bulk of the army, deff skulls for fire support (and maybe grotznik?) and maybe Goff for Thrakka OR a mixed vanguard for Thrakka+three elite characters of your choice. I really see no reason to pick the freebootas clan trait unless most of your army belongs to that clan.

I want to see if freebootas is an actual clan, or if you just have a trait for a Badrukk+Flash Gits spearhead, similar to Cypher or Assassins.

Any thoughts whether the Waaagh! Banner will be changed? Exploding on 5s and 6s seems too good with how many swings boyz can get. It makes me wish they switched with Bad Moonz. Change it to 2 hits on unmodifed 6s means we could have a clan that could safely invest in alot of shooting and still get results against lots of -1 to hit armies.

 ZoBo wrote:

...is the problem that it's actually too accurate to fluff?

Not really. The problem is, that if you use the leaked traits with the current index, then large blobs of Evil Sunz shoota-boyz suddenly becomes the meta. Then Evil Sunz is a shooty footslogging army, which was probably not the intention.

Then there is the supposedly sneaky camouflage army of Blood Axe. They get universal cover, which might seem fluffy. But when you play with such a rule, you end up ignoring the use of cover completely, because you get the benefit anyway. Suddenly Blood Axe units get no benefit from the cover placed on the table.

And it is not that we haven't seen this pattern before. Pretty much every IG Leman Russ battle tank is a catachan jungle warrior these days, simply because the catachan bonus is better for battle cannons than for actual flamers.

 Hades wrote:
Any thoughts whether the Waaagh! Banner will be changed? Exploding on 5s and 6s seems too good with how many swings boyz can get. It makes me wish they switched with Bad Moonz. Change it to 2 hits on unmodifed 6s means we could have a clan that could safely invest in alot of shooting and still get results against lots of -1 to hit armies.

"Too good"... don't be afraid of us actually getting something good for once. You also might want to give other codices with similar abilities a read, they can do way better than that.

 Hades wrote:
Any thoughts whether the Waaagh! Banner will be changed? Exploding on 5s and 6s seems too good with how many swings boyz can get. It makes me wish they switched with Bad Moonz. Change it to 2 hits on unmodifed 6s means we could have a clan that could safely invest in alot of shooting and still get results against lots of -1 to hit armies.

The banner was never worth its points in the index. It was always cheaper to have more boyz.

If it gets a big price drop and explodes 5s then it will finally be worth taking.

Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.

Everyone is a Space Marine in 8th.

It really depends on what your goal in the game is. For a highly competitive gamer, stats are more important than paint. If you enforce the paint scheme, they would probably even adjust the colors, just to have the benefit. Nothing prevents them from picking the best clans for every unit.

For myself, I'll probably just run everything I have as bloodaxe, since that's how they are painted. That's exactly how other players in my group do it for their armies, even if their traits completely suck. Poor Imperial Fists.

You can't force your view of how the game should be played onto others. You can only chose to follow social contracts yourself.

Nuck Fewton wrote:
Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.

Yes and I will use the clan rules that my Orks are actually painted as, which happens to be Evil Sunz.

I will also still take bikes, regardless of their viability and I will take as many of those new buggies as I can fit into a list, again, regardless of how well they actually perform on the table.

Anyone can take the most obviously powerful unit and make it work, it takes skill to take a unit that is sub-par and still get results out of it. I enjoy the challenge.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Nuck Fewton wrote:
Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.

Yes and I will use the clan rules that my Orks are actually painted as, which happens to be Evil Sunz.

I will also still take bikes, regardless of their viability and I will take as many of those new buggies as I can fit into a list, again, regardless of how well they actually perform on the table.

Anyone can take the most obviously powerful unit and make it work, it takes skill to take a unit that is sub-par and still get results out of it. I enjoy the challenge.

*Swoon*
No but seriously, same. Getting the most out of a list that's decent somewhat strong but thematic rather than super strong/broken is really fun. I also hate it when my friends are like "well I really like terminators but they suck too bad to use". It has to suck when you're flipping through your own codex and you've effectively halved the amount of choices you have simply because it isn't top tier. I want to build and paint the models I find cool and obviously if I put in the time and effort to do that, I'm going to want to field them.

PiñaColada wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Nuck Fewton wrote:
Is anyone else bothered when people mix clans/regiments/chapters etc. in one army? Especially is the army is all painted one scheme. It just seems super power gamey to me.

Yes and I will use the clan rules that my Orks are actually painted as, which happens to be Evil Sunz.

I will also still take bikes, regardless of their viability and I will take as many of those new buggies as I can fit into a list, again, regardless of how well they actually perform on the table.

Anyone can take the most obviously powerful unit and make it work, it takes skill to take a unit that is sub-par and still get results out of it. I enjoy the challenge.

*Swoon*
No but seriously, same. Getting the most out of a list that's decent somewhat strong but thematic rather than super strong/broken is really fun. I also hate it when my friends are like "well I really like terminators but they suck too bad to use". It has to suck when you're flipping through your own codex and you've effectively halved the amount of choices you have simply because it isn't top tier. I want to build and paint the models I find cool and obviously if I put in the time and effort to do that, I'm going to want to field them.

100%, luckily my main opponent is of the same mentality. There's also nothing better than beating a net list with something that is considered trash in the current meta.