Making Orks Competitive in 8th - Waaaagh! (Ork tactics)

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**TedNugent**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The idea of Nobz versus boyz is an interesting one. Comparing the units directly to each other is interesting.

Unit size

Nobz: Pros
Smaller foot print makes it easier to hide, get into cover, LOS block, slip through cracks and get everyone to attack. Less vulnerable to morale

Cons: Far less board control. Worse ability to tie things up.

Ork Boy pros
Lots of board control. Great ability to tie things up. Great for objective controlling.

Cons: Vulnerable to morale without other big mobs or support.. Easy to tie up due to size. Hard to claim cover.

Combat killyness:
Each nob base with dual choppas has five attacks at s5 for 14 points. Each boy (choppa slugga) had a crappy shooting attack and 3 attacks at s4. For the points you can get two boyz for two crappy slugga shots you may never use and 6 s4 attacks. 6S4 versus 5S5 is largely enemy dependent, but I'd probably take the S5. For more points you can upgrade the nobz with big choppas to make them actually scary with S7 Ap-1 2dmg attacks or take an even cheaper route and trade the 1 attack for -2 ap on a powa stabba.

Durability:
Each nob has a 4+ save and two wounds giving them a literal half decent chance to save a wound where as boyz really get the shaft here. However as any Primaris player will never shut up about (myself included) there are a lot of 2d or d3 damage out there which really hurts the value of the nobz, but does not bother the boyz at all. Conversely the boyz lose effectiveness for each wound they take where as the nobz only start to care after every two and can save some of them.

Nobz also require a transport or to be deep struck to claim value due to their point cost. Boyz do not. Boyz fill up troop slots where Nobz do not meaning boyz will lend themselves to CP better.

I think it's a very interesting question as to which you might want to go heavy on. Traditionally it's easily been boyz, but with their price increase really being felt (driving up my lists by 100+ points) Nobz might find a way to sneak in as the primary force inside transports like battlewagons and trukks.

Death skulls nobs = objective secured nobs

Also, ammo runts say hai to 2 damage shots. 2 ammo runts plus nobs fit beautifully in a bonebreaka or trukk. Just saying.

**Tibs Ironblood**

I absolutely agree on the death skull nobz having some good bonuses to them. They would be the go to for physical transport where as evil sunz would take it for deep strike based mobility. The ammo runts are an auto take I agree, but there are only two at 10 so that won't really hold up to even a single hellblaster squad or ravager with a bad attitude.

**mhalko1**

Glitcha wrote:
On the topic of tankbustas, did anyone noticed that with the more stikk bomb strat you can have a unit of 10 tanks bustas throw 10 tankbusta bombs. 10d3 shots that get dakka dakka dakka on?

This will be incredible however, you gotta remember the 6" range on the grenade.

**Glitcha**

mhalko1 wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
On the topic of tankbustas, did anyone noticed that with the more stikk bomb strat you can have a unit of 10 tanks bustas throw 10 tankbusta bombs. 10d3 shots that get dakka dakka dakka on?

This will be incredible however, you gotta remember the 6" range on the grenade.

So? You can safely be in a trukk and do this or a battlewagon or big trakk.

**mhalko1**

Glitcha wrote:
mhalko1 wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
On the topic of tankbustas, did anyone noticed that with the more stikk bomb strat you can have a unit of 10 tanks bustas throw 10 tankbusta bombs. 10d3 shots that get dakka dakka dakka on?

This will be incredible however, you gotta remember the 6" range on the grenade.

So? You can safely be in a trukk and do this or a battlewagon or big trakk.

Im just saying I usually try not to get that close with my bustas even inside a trukk/BW. If the decision wasn't made by me then that strategem could see great use.

**TedNugent**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I absolutely agree on the death skull nobz having some good bonuses to them. They would be the go to for physical transport where as evil sunz would take it for deep strike based mobility. The ammo runts are an auto take I agree, but there are only two at 10 so that won't really hold up to even a single hellblaster squad or ravager with a bad attitude.

True, but that's what the bonebreaka is for

Make that hellblasta squad into deffrolla paint, soak the overwatch, then say hello to my big Choppa

Seriously, a bonebreaka can mulch a primaris combat squad.

One round of combat with a full size unit of nobs would not go well for them either.

**Jidmah**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Nobz also require a transport or to be deep struck to claim value due to their point cost. Boyz do not. Boyz fill up troop slots where Nobz do not meaning boyz will lend themselves to CP better.

The rest of your post is great, but I disagree on this.

1 nob is 14 points, just like two boyz. If you are shot by weapons with 2 or 3 damage, what's shooting your buggies, transports and mek guns in the meantime? The armor save also works against most D2 weapons, even against plasma you still get a 6+ save. They are straight up more durable than boyz are - even if you footslog them across the board. Throw in a grot screen and nobz easily outperform boyz, transport or not.

**Glitcha**

mhalko1 wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
mhalko1 wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
On the topic of tankbustas, did anyone noticed that with the more stikk bomb strat you can have a unit of 10 tanks bustas throw 10 tankbusta bombs. 10d3 shots that get dakka dakka dakka on?

This will be incredible however, you gotta remember the 6" range on the grenade.

So? You can safely be in a trukk and do this or a battlewagon or big trakk.

Im just saying I usually try not to get that close with my bustas even inside a trukk/BW. If the decision wasn't made by me then that strategem could see great use.

I agree probably would not get that close unless the plan was to try and kill that unit. You could make this even worse if you are bad moons. you could make it a nasty combo by using more stikk bombs, more dakka and showin off. Throw 10d3 tankbusta bombs followed up by 10 rokkets. looking for 5's and 6's. Rerolling. Average on 10d3 is 20.67.Average number of hits with more dakka and reroll all fails is 21.67. 20.67 wounds. average unsave wounds is 9.83. Average dmg would be 33.8. That is just the bombs on target that is T7 or less with a 3+ save base.

**mrtomski**

Thinking about a 10 man big choppa trukk nob group.

What's the best clan for it though? 2 points a pop for a kustom shooter seems like 40 shots would be nice, but then you'd need to be evil suns to advance and not hit on 6s right.. bettwr to dpible down on melee as goffs?

**TedNugent**

Why pay for big Choppas on every model, though.

Unless the intended purpose is to deal 2 damage per attack. Outside of that context, the power stabba does more damage to single wound models, and dual Choppa isn't far behind for the quite reasonable price of free.

I don't see why you would think of going Goff. The entire point of Goff is Skarboys. Nobs are not skarboys.

Aside from the other benefits, which are sauce, death skulls nobs have objective secured. Evil sunz are faster, more reliable charge and you can put out dakka while you advance. I don't see what goffs does for nobs.

I would keep them cheap and outfit them with just enough wargear they need to kill what you're trying to kill.

**JimOnMars**

PiñaColada wrote:
JimOnMars wrote:
PiñaColada wrote:
Pretty sure the tankbusta reroll 1's is incorrect. Strikingscorpion said it in his video but I think he misspoke. No-one else has mentioned it as far as I know.
Which just goes to show that no reviewer knows or cares about orks. Any ork player would be damn sure to check that.

I don't understand your point. I'm saying I don't think they changed, why would a reviewer call out a change that never happened? Just looking at the war of sigmar review they state that tankbustas reroll misses against vehicles. The whole reroll 1's was SS82 just accidentally saying the wrong thing, he even said that they're rerolling misses later in that review

Any ork player that heard themselves say "tankbustas rerolling on 1s" would @#$% themselves and check what they just read VERY carefully. Then they would either say "omfg HUGE nerf to one of our only decent units" or "WHEW. for a minute there I thought the worst" and clarify it to their audience.

No True Ork would never leave something like this hanging and panic the entire ork playing world.

**RedNoak**

DoomMouse wrote:
Hadn't thought about it that way before. Going from 6pts to 7pts makes a 200pt difference to a big green tide at 2K.

I know the maths is obvious, but thinking about what you could get for that 200pts really hammers home how strong the nerf is despite all that the boyz gained from this codex

yeah thats what most people dont get (including GW ithink) its a frakking 15% point increase. now keep in mind we only have 2 troop choices... one of em cant even use 99% of the strats and traits...

so yeah... one or two 30blobs of boyz may still viable to jump around... other than that... i guess its byebye horde

**Tibs Ironblood**

Jidmah wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Nobz also require a transport or to be deep struck to claim value due to their point cost. Boyz do not. Boyz fill up troop slots where Nobz do not meaning boyz will lend themselves to CP better.

The rest of your post is great, but I disagree on this.

1 nob is 14 points, just like two boyz. If you are shot by weapons with 2 or 3 damage, what's shooting your buggies, transports and mek guns in the meantime? The armor save also works against most D2 weapons, even against plasma you still get a 6+ save. They are straight up more durable than boyz are - even if you footslog them across the board. Throw in a grot screen and nobz easily outperform boyz, transport or not.

If you are footslogging IMO you are required to go evil sunz to get anywhere in a timely manner. I really do find it hard to imagine footslogging 14 point model+ units that are less durable than Primaris which already die in droves. I really do think investing in trukks or battlewagons are worth it for the sole purpose of keeping those nobz alive, getting to the enemy faster and allowing to pick something other than evil sunz. I mean maybe you are right and footslogging units of nobs could work, but I am skeptical. Either way it goes without saying a KFF is needed for the nobz or the trukks.

**TedNugent**

For 200 points, you could almost buy a kuuuuustom boooom blastaaaa! Plus a Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy!

Guys, just think of what you gained!

Instead of taking boys, take deffkoptas (huge points reduction!), Shamalam Dingwagons, dakkajets, Killa kans, mega armored big meks, trukks, and shockjump dragstas! Paint them all yellow (since everyone loves bananas!) And just try NOT to win a tournament!

**Glitcha**

I'm fine with the 1pt increase on boyz. Shootas are free now, we got dakka dakka dakka now, AND we got access to tankbusta bombs! That's before you add in the buffs from the klan kulturs.

**mrtomski**

TedNugent wrote:
Why pay for big Choppas on every model, though.

Unless the intended purpose is to deal 2 damage per attack. Outside of that context, the power stabba does more damage to single wound models, and dual Choppa isn't far behind for the quite reasonable price of free.

I don't see why you would think of going Goff. The entire point of Goff is Skarboys. Nobs are not skarboys.

Aside from the other benefits, which are sauce, death skulls nobs have objective secured. Evil sunz are faster, more reliable charge and you can put out dakka while you advance. I don't see what goffs does for nobs.

I would keep them cheap and outfit them with just enough wargear they need to kill what you're trying to kill.

So yeah when it comes to optimising the list I might drop a couple of big choppas. The dual choppa option is interesting but I'm not trying to replace all my boyz just yet, and if I'm riding in a trukk I'd rather have some shooting. 10 nobz with dual choppas get 1 extra s5 attack, but you could pay 20 points and the squad gets 40 s4 shots...

**Sal4m4nd3r**

The tank busta bombs alone make it worth it! can you use the grenade strat using the tank busta bomsb on boys units?

**Glitcha**

Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
The tank busta bombs alone make it worth it! can you use the grenade strat using the tank busta bomsb on boys units?

yes, you can.

**Emicrania**

Captain Brown wrote:
gungo wrote:
If you don’t want to repaint everything they sell colored base rings you clip onto the bases that allow you to not only differentiate clans but units. So like all orks w blue bases are deathskull and all red ones are evil suns and all yellow are bad moons. It gets a bit trickier with vehicles but odds are all vehicles are part of one detachment anyway. The rings fit 24 or 32mm bases.

Interesting idea. Although I might go back to 2nd Edition and adding swappable back-banners on the Nobz and vehicles.

My two cents,

CB

That is EXACTLY what I was gonna do

**Sal4m4nd3r**

Glitcha wrote:
Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
The tank busta bombs alone make it worth it! can you use the grenade strat using the tank busta bomsb on boys units?

yes, you can.

I just had never even thought about that combo until now. 1ppm and 1 cp to toss ten krak grenades is a REALLY good bargain. Especially if you can surround a transport and then blow it up, killing everyone inside.

**JimOnMars**

Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
Glitcha wrote:
Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
The tank busta bombs alone make it worth it! can you use the grenade strat using the tank busta bomsb on boys units?

yes, you can.

I just had never even thought about that combo until now. 1ppm and 1 cp to toss ten krak grenades is a REALLY good bargain. Especially if you can surround a transport and then blow it up, killing everyone inside.

Except you can only take 3 TB Bombs per 30 boyz. Mob up once and you have 4, with the nob and 35 ablative wounds. Still, it's only 4 grenades.

**Pandabeer**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
The idea of Nobz versus boyz is an interesting one. Comparing the units directly to each other is interesting.

Unit size

Nobz: Pros
Smaller foot print makes it easier to hide, get into cover, LOS block, slip through cracks and get everyone to attack. Less vulnerable to morale

Cons: Far less board control. Worse ability to tie things up.

Ork Boy pros
Lots of board control. Great ability to tie things up. Great for objective controlling.

Cons: Vulnerable to morale without other big mobs or support.. Easy to tie up due to size. Hard to claim cover.

Combat killyness:
Each nob base with dual choppas has five attacks at s5 for 14 points. Each boy (choppa slugga) had a crappy shooting attack and 3 attacks at s4. For the points you can get two boyz for two crappy slugga shots you may never use and 6 s4 attacks. 6S4 versus 5S5 is largely enemy dependent, but I'd probably take the S5. For more points you can upgrade the nobz with big choppas to make them actually scary with S7 Ap-1 2dmg attacks or take an even cheaper route and trade the 1 attack for -2 ap on a powa stabba.

Durability:
Each nob has a 4+ save and two wounds giving them a literal half decent chance to save a wound where as boyz really get the shaft here. However as any Primaris player will never shut up about (myself included) there are a lot of 2d or d3 damage out there which really hurts the value of the nobz, but does not bother the boyz at all. Conversely the boyz lose effectiveness for each wound they take where as the nobz only start to care after every two and can save some of them.

Nobz also require a transport or to be deep struck to claim value due to their point cost. Boyz do not. Boyz fill up troop slots where Nobz do not meaning boyz will lend themselves to CP better.

I think it's a very interesting question as to which you might want to go heavy on. Traditionally it's easily been boyz, but with their price increase really being felt (driving up my lists by 100+ points) Nobz might find a way to sneak in as the primary force inside transports like battlewagons and trukks.

You can take dual choppa on a Nob?

**the_scotsman**

Tankbustas have TB bombs on every guy.

Yes, nobz can take two choppas, because it's possible to build dual Choppa npbz out of the nob kit.

**Jidmah**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Nobz also require a transport or to be deep struck to claim value due to their point cost. Boyz do not. Boyz fill up troop slots where Nobz do not meaning boyz will lend themselves to CP better.

The rest of your post is great, but I disagree on this.

1 nob is 14 points, just like two boyz. If you are shot by weapons with 2 or 3 damage, what's shooting your buggies, transports and mek guns in the meantime? The armor save also works against most D2 weapons, even against plasma you still get a 6+ save. They are straight up more durable than boyz are - even if you footslog them across the board. Throw in a grot screen and nobz easily outperform boyz, transport or not.

If you are footslogging IMO you are required to go evil sunz to get anywhere in a timely manner. I really do find it hard to imagine footslogging 14 point model+ units that are less durable than Primaris which already die in droves. I really do think investing in trukks or battlewagons are worth it for the sole purpose of keeping those nobz alive, getting to the enemy faster and allowing to pick something other than evil sunz. I mean maybe you are right and footslogging units of nobs could work, but I am skeptical. Either way it goes without saying a KFF is needed for the nobz or the trukks.

If those nobz get killed, the same amount of points invested in boyz will get killed up to twice as fast. Because nobz have a 4+ armor save and boyz have 6+. Nobz are more durable per point than boyz now.

I fail to see how nobz need a transport to get somewhere but boyz don't.

**Shrapnelbait**

Emicrania wrote:
Captain Brown wrote:
gungo wrote:
If you don’t want to repaint everything they sell colored base rings you clip onto the bases that allow you to not only differentiate clans but units. So like all orks w blue bases are deathskull and all red ones are evil suns and all yellow are bad moons. It gets a bit trickier with vehicles but odds are all vehicles are part of one detachment anyway. The rings fit 24 or 32mm bases.

Interesting idea. Although I might go back to 2nd Edition and adding swappable back-banners on the Nobz and vehicles.

My two cents,

CB

That is EXACTLY what I was gonna do

can anyone give a good source for these?

**JimOnMars**

Jidmah wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Nobz also require a transport or to be deep struck to claim value due to their point cost. Boyz do not. Boyz fill up troop slots where Nobz do not meaning boyz will lend themselves to CP better.

The rest of your post is great, but I disagree on this.

1 nob is 14 points, just like two boyz. If you are shot by weapons with 2 or 3 damage, what's shooting your buggies, transports and mek guns in the meantime? The armor save also works against most D2 weapons, even against plasma you still get a 6+ save. They are straight up more durable than boyz are - even if you footslog them across the board. Throw in a grot screen and nobz easily outperform boyz, transport or not.

If you are footslogging IMO you are required to go evil sunz to get anywhere in a timely manner. I really do find it hard to imagine footslogging 14 point model+ units that are less durable than Primaris which already die in droves. I really do think investing in trukks or battlewagons are worth it for the sole purpose of keeping those nobz alive, getting to the enemy faster and allowing to pick something other than evil sunz. I mean maybe you are right and footslogging units of nobs could work, but I am skeptical. Either way it goes without saying a KFF is needed for the nobz or the trukks.

If those nobz get killed, the same amount of points invested in boyz will get killed up to twice as fast. Because nobz have a 4+ armor save and boyz have 6+. Nobz are more durable per point than boyz now.

I fail to see how nobz need a transport to get somewhere but boyz don't.

This actually makes sense. I wonder what would happen if you ran a squad of 15 dual-choppa nobs next to 30 boyz...who would get shot first?

My main reason to prefer boyz is for trying to fill out a battalion or brigade, and for objective secured.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Jidmah wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Nobz also require a transport or to be deep struck to claim value due to their point cost. Boyz do not. Boyz fill up troop slots where Nobz do not meaning boyz will lend themselves to CP better.

The rest of your post is great, but I disagree on this.

1 nob is 14 points, just like two boyz. If you are shot by weapons with 2 or 3 damage, what's shooting your buggies, transports and mek guns in the meantime? The armor save also works against most D2 weapons, even against plasma you still get a 6+ save. They are straight up more durable than boyz are - even if you footslog them across the board. Throw in a grot screen and nobz easily outperform boyz, transport or not.

If you are footslogging IMO you are required to go evil sunz to get anywhere in a timely manner. I really do find it hard to imagine footslogging 14 point model+ units that are less durable than Primaris which already die in droves. I really do think investing in trukks or battlewagons are worth it for the sole purpose of keeping those nobz alive, getting to the enemy faster and allowing to pick something other than evil sunz. I mean maybe you are right and footslogging units of nobs could work, but I am skeptical. Either way it goes without saying a KFF is needed for the nobz or the trukks.

If those nobz get killed, the same amount of points invested in boyz will get killed up to twice as fast. Because nobz have a 4+ armor save and boyz have 6+. Nobz are more durable per point than boyz now.

I fail to see how nobz need a transport to get somewhere but boyz don't.

Point on the armor save: If you are running KFFs (you probably should be) any time you are hit by ap their save is the same at that point outside of cover. The 4+ is better 100% and works in combat so I am not discounting that, but pointing out they won't always be packing a better save than the 7pt boyz. The point investment in nobz is worse against d2 or D3 weapons because their wounds mean literally nothing (2dmg plus) or mean nothing 66% of the time when hit by d3. These weapon types are not exactly uncommon and will reap massive value on nobz. Against plasma, a dissie or battle cannon they are the exact same levels of screwed as boyz are, but twice so due to their point values. It is for these reasons I think a transport is always worth it for them due to them being relatively cheap (51 or so points for a trukk now I think?) or relatively useful (Battlewagon with deff rolla). You are not hurting your list by including them either which way. If you footslog your nobz in the best case scenario they are moving 6+D6+1 so turn 3 combat is likely. If they are in a battlewagon or a trukk (evil sunz) they are going 13+d6+1 with the free 3 inch disembark you are not unlikely to get a turn 2 charge with them. Or heck if you want you can take another clan tactic like death skulls and still be in the turn 2 charge ballpark if they take a transport.

That or you can always DS them T2 as evil sunz for a 72% (I think?) charge. It is for these reasons that I think nobz are worth investing in a transport/DS for due mitigate their weaknesses to multiple damage weapons and also reducing your number of drops.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JimOnMars wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Nobz also require a transport or to be deep struck to claim value due to their point cost. Boyz do not. Boyz fill up troop slots where Nobz do not meaning boyz will lend themselves to CP better.

The rest of your post is great, but I disagree on this.

1 nob is 14 points, just like two boyz. If you are shot by weapons with 2 or 3 damage, what's shooting your buggies, transports and mek guns in the meantime? The armor save also works against most D2 weapons, even against plasma you still get a 6+ save. They are straight up more durable than boyz are - even if you footslog them across the board. Throw in a grot screen and nobz easily outperform boyz, transport or not.

If you are footslogging IMO you are required to go evil sunz to get anywhere in a timely manner. I really do find it hard to imagine footslogging 14 point model+ units that are less durable than Primaris which already die in droves. I really do think investing in trukks or battlewagons are worth it for the sole purpose of keeping those nobz alive, getting to the enemy faster and allowing to pick something other than evil sunz. I mean maybe you are right and footslogging units of nobs could work, but I am skeptical. Either way it goes without saying a KFF is needed for the nobz or the trukks.

If those nobz get killed, the same amount of points invested in boyz will get killed up to twice as fast. Because nobz have a 4+ armor save and boyz have 6+. Nobz are more durable per point than boyz now.

I fail to see how nobz need a transport to get somewhere but boyz don't.
This actually makes sense. I wonder what would happen if you ran a squad of 15 dual-choppa nobs next to 30 boyz...who would get shot first?

My main reason to prefer boyz is for trying to fill out a battalion or brigade, and for objective secured.

You would always shoot the nobz if you have multiple damage.

**Eonfuzz**

It's done.

Here's the battlescribe link:
https://github.com/Eonfuzz/ork-prerelease

It should come with everything being released in the codex, let me know if I'm missing anything and I'll make some changes.

While I was working on this some dude came forward with the codex and gave me a hand, so I've even got some unknown goodies (WAAAGH powers, Battlewagon variant rules).

Keep up da WAAAAGH LADS!

**BlaxicanX**

Why do people think the GW creative team has any control over decisions made by the legal team? "No model = no rules" is a legal strategy.

**tag8833**

Eonfuzz wrote:
It's done.

Here's the battlescribe link:
https://github.com/Eonfuzz/ork-prerelease

It should come with everything being released in the codex, let me know if I'm missing anything and I'll make some changes.

While I was working on this some dude came forward with the codex and gave me a hand, so I've even got some unknown goodies (WAAAGH powers, Battlewagon variant rules).

Keep up da WAAAAGH LADS!

Good job Eonfuzz.

For what it is worth, the official BS file is going through a round of QA right now, and should be released in a few days.