Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Although shootas are nice to jump turn one, shoot away at screen/chaff unit, (and even try to assault)while your krumpy stuff gets into position to charge turn two/three.


Played a double baneblade, double Russ punisher, 100 conscript army last week and got boned in the bum bum because I couldn't adequately get the chaff out of the way.

Shootas come into their own against harlequin and nids. Or especially against the dreaded harlenids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ork kommandos and teleporting infantry often finds themselves badly needing a nine or better when rolling for charge distance.

Normally you have a 28% chance of rolling a nine or better with 2D6, but orks get the benefit of rerolling one or both of the dice when rolling to make a succesful charge.

Assuming that the initial roll is not nine or better, the best option is to look at the higher of the two dice: If the highest result is a three or worse, both dice should be rerolled. But if the higher die result is four or better only the smaller die should be rerolled. Using this approach the ork player has a neat 57% chance of making the nine inch charge.

I think those odds are pretty decent. We all now how brutal a 30-boy squad that da-jumps in with warpath can be, but maybe kommandos and snikrot are also reasonable options for bolstering those first turn charges. I think I need to make some kommando conversions.

I have been re-rolling even the fours. I thought of the highest is a four, and I keep it.. I only have a 1/3 chance of making he charge (needing a 5+). Maybe I'll keep my fours from now on..

Anyone with a bit of gaming experience in 8th...

Is it worth building a list around Brigade and therefore CP? So far I've got:

Big Mek w/ KFF 75
Big Mek w/ KFF 75
Warboss w/ big choppa 68
Warboss w/ big choppa 68

Gretchin 30
Gretchin 30
Gretchin 30
30 Boyz – big choppa 189
30 Boyz – big choppa 189
30 Boyz – big choppa 189

Nob w/ Waaagh banner 79
Kommandos w/ 2 burnas 45
Kommandos w/ 2 burnas 45

Skorcha 66
Skorcha 66
Skorcha 66

Kustom Mega-Kannon 38
Kustom Mega-Kannon 38
Kustom Mega-Kannon 38

1424
Thoughts? Or not worth building a list around maximising CP?

You've under costed your KMK's.
I think if your army divides into several detachments then cool. why not. Doesn't hurt anything as far as I know.

Ah, did I only miss the Grot Gunners? So it's 48 then?

pismakron wrote:
Normally you have a 28% chance of rolling a nine or better with 2D6, but orks get the benefit of rerolling one or both of the dice when rolling to make a succesful charge.

After my initial excitement about re-rolling one die, I'm thinking Reece is correct when he says roll 2.

The general re-rolling rule says "one or both", but I'm thinking that is not meant to imply that the player has a choice...only that it means sometimes you re-roll 1 and sometimes you re-roll 2. E're We Go says you can re roll the charge roll, not dice. Re-rolling a roll means you do the whole thing over. There is no choice here.

Of course, GW forgot to FAQ it.

Here is the rule word for word:

"Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. You can never re roll a dice more then onc., and re rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied."

I think it's very clear that when we re roll a charge roll, we can re roll some or all. One or two. I play at a GW full of rules lawyers and they agree with me on this.

It's on the next FAQ clarification list but when That is coming who knows. FW will be this weekend.

I think they just explaining a reroll for players that dont know what it is. That's the argument i YMDC to, that you reroll that charge roll, therefor 2 dices. I have lost one or two dice rerollable charge and battlewagon partial whittin a KFF bubble in one week

gungo wrote:
It's on the next FAQ clarification list but when That is coming who knows. FW will be this weekend.

The Forgeworld FAQs should be interesting. Here's to hoping they just reprint the books, they're pretty crap.

pismakron wrote:
Shootas come into their own against harlequin and nids. Or especially against the dreaded harlenids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ork kommandos and teleporting infantry often finds themselves badly needing a nine or better when rolling for charge distance.

Normally you have a 28% chance of rolling a nine or better with 2D6, but orks get the benefit of rerolling one or both of the dice when rolling to make a succesful charge.

Assuming that the initial roll is not nine or better, the best option is to look at the higher of the two dice: If the highest result is a three or worse, both dice should be rerolled. But if the higher die result is four or better only the smaller die should be rerolled. Using this approach the ork player has a neat 57% chance of making the nine inch charge.

I think those odds are pretty decent. We all now how brutal a 30-boy squad that da-jumps in with warpath can be, but maybe kommandos and snikrot are also reasonable options for bolstering those first turn charges. I think I need to make some kommando conversions.

I can't find it anymore, but I did a spreadsheet on this when our last brought the 'ere we go rule. You get the best results when re-rolling anything but :four: :five: , if you re-roll fours you get lower average results than when keeping them.
Maybe I should redo it specifically targeting results of 9" or higher. Or someone else with more free time on their hand

Without doing the exact math, I'd say the chance of rolling 5+ = 33% (after keeping a 4) is higher than rolling a 9+ on 2d6 = 28% though.

Hey Boyz, I'm considering getting aquainted with the Orky way of life. I recently listened to The Beast Arises audiobook and I've been captivated by the green tide. I plan to read this thread but could you guys give me the gist of how a horde army would look and perform? I'm thinking pure infantry, big units of normal boys, commandos, lootas, flash gitz, the jetpack guys, cheap buffing characters and maybe one or two of the big cannons.

Cheers lads

 Slaktur wrote:
I think they just explaining a reroll for players that dont know what it is. That's the argument i YMDC to, that you reroll that charge roll, therefor 2 dices. I have lost one or two dice rerollable charge and battlewagon partial whittin a KFF bubble in one week

I'm going with ere we go allows rerolls to either or both dice, but honestly it could go either way. If it's both dice only this will be a massive nerf to orks whose only competitve list right now is boy squads and I don't think orks can be competitive without it.

Regarding the kff bubble I do not think raw or intended is for it it be wholly within for every model. That is not how the rule is written at all nor how it's been played on warhammer tv. Entirely is not wholly and is in reference to the unit being entirely within the kff. Not the entire unit being wholly within. I think the gw dev team was explicit in thier term of use for wholly and I don't think stretching the ambiguity of the word entirely to encompass both unit and model as being wholly is anywhere near that intent.

Thanks Gungo for the reply, if they play it that way on warhammer.tv it's good enough for me. KFF is back on the meny.

For the reroll i just have to ask my opponent what they think until next faq. Keeping my fingers crossed for rerolling one or both dice for maximum WAAAGH!!

xlDuke wrote:

gungo wrote:
It's on the next FAQ clarification list but when That is coming who knows. FW will be this weekend.

The Forgeworld FAQs should be interesting. Here's to hoping they just reprint the books, they're pretty crap.

As long as they send me a new copy... for free.. Im all in. I must say the book didn't seem to have been checked very well. finding mistakes on the first pass.

As for the dice math its relatively simple. The average of a D6 is 3.5, thus any dice that is higher than 3.5 (so 4,5,6) is statistically increasing your odds of getting a 9" charge. Thus re-rolling a 4,5,6 is always going to be statistically more likely to fail you a charge

with 1 dice as a 4; 33% chance of rolling the required re-roll.

with 1 dice as a 5; 50% chance of rolling the required re-roll.

with 1 dice as a 6; 66% chance of rolling the required re-roll

And in the first place you have 28% chance of getting the 9" straight up, and a 75% chance of rolling atleast 1 dice as a 4/5/6.

I'm really struggling with lootas because they are the auto target for turn 1 deep strikers. I'm running them in 2x5 in a trukk or 3x5 in a wagon. I equip the vehicles with big shootas so they can still target from distance then disembark and assault with the vehicles. Once i've used 10 bustas plus 2x5 lootas in the wagon with deffrolla and shot the wagon forward turn 1 then diesmbarked.

Lootas are unreliable due to the variability in shots.

How is the best way to play them?

Also ere we go in my opinion is re-roll both dice or none. I so want it to be the other way but have a look in YMDC for the justifications for this.

 Sledgio wrote:
Anyone with a bit of gaming experience in 8th...

Is it worth building a list around Brigade and therefore CP? So far I've got:

Big Mek w/ KFF 75
Big Mek w/ KFF 75
Warboss w/ big choppa 68
Warboss w/ big choppa 68

Gretchin 30
Gretchin 30
Gretchin 30
30 Boyz – big choppa 189
30 Boyz – big choppa 189
30 Boyz – big choppa 189

Nob w/ Waaagh banner 79
Kommandos w/ 2 burnas 45
Kommandos w/ 2 burnas 45

Skorcha 66
Skorcha 66
Skorcha 66

Kustom Mega-Kannon 38
Kustom Mega-Kannon 38
Kustom Mega-Kannon 38

1424
Thoughts? Or not worth building a list around maximising CP?

Hi, a decent list using the brigade detachment is possible, but you need a lot of cheap and effective units. Weirdboyz, kommandos and mek gunz basically. Grots are uselss, don't field more than a single unit of 10, save points for the mobs of boyz. Deffkoptas with shootas are better than skorcha buggies.

You can go with something like that:

warboss, pk, bike

2x weirdboy

6x 30 boyz, nob, big choppa

3x KMK

3x Deffkopta

3x 5 kommandos, 2 burnas, nob

painboy

grotsnik


Maybe a nob with the banner cutting a unit of kommandos and taking cheaper mek gunz instead of KMKs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nithaniel wrote:
I'm really struggling with lootas because they are the auto target for turn 1 deep strikers. I'm running them in 2x5 in a trukk or 3x5 in a wagon. I equip the vehicles with big shootas so they can still target from distance then disembark and assault with the vehicles. Once i've used 10 bustas plus 2x5 lootas in the wagon with deffrolla and shot the wagon forward turn 1 then diesmbarked.

Lootas are unreliable due to the variability in shots.

How is the best way to play them?

Also ere we go in my opinion is re-roll both dice or none. I so want it to be the other way but have a look in YMDC for the justifications for this.

Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I have been re-rolling even the fours. I thought of the highest is a four, and I keep it.. I only have a 1/3 chance of making he charge (needing a 5+). Maybe I'll keep my fours from now on..

If you keep a four and reroll the other die, then you have a 33% chance of making nine. But if you reroll both dice then you have 28% chance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JimOnMars wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Normally you have a 28% chance of rolling a nine or better with 2D6, but orks get the benefit of rerolling one or both of the dice when rolling to make a succesful charge.

After my initial excitement about re-rolling one die, I'm thinking Reece is correct when he says roll 2.

The general re-rolling rule says "one or both", but I'm thinking that is not meant to imply that the player has a choice...only that it means sometimes you re-roll 1 and sometimes you re-roll 2. E're We Go says you can re roll the charge roll, not dice. Re-rolling a roll means you do the whole thing over. There is no choice here.

Of course, GW forgot to FAQ it.

Who is Reece?

Well, I am going with the interpretation that either zero, one or two dice can be rerolled. The Ere We Go rules says that you can reroll the charge roll, and the reroll rule says "Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again."

A charge roll is a dice roll, and you get to reroll the dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again.

gungo wrote:

 Slaktur wrote:
I think they just explaining a reroll for players that dont know what it is. That's the argument i YMDC to, that you reroll that charge roll, therefor 2 dices. I have lost one or two dice rerollable charge and battlewagon partial whittin a KFF bubble in one week

I'm going with ere we go allows rerolls to either or both dice, but honestly it could go either way. If it's both dice only this will be a massive nerf to orks whose only competitve list right now is boy squads and I don't think orks can be competitive without it.

Regarding the kff bubble I do not think raw or intended is for it it be wholly within for every model. That is not how the rule is written at all nor how it's been played on warhammer tv. Entirely is not wholly and is in reference to the unit being entirely within the kff. Not the entire unit being wholly within. I think the gw dev team was explicit in thier term of use for wholly and I don't think stretching the ambiguity of the word entirely to encompass both unit and model as being wholly is anywhere near that intent.

GUNGO, how did they play it on warhammer tv????

 Blackie wrote:

 Sledgio wrote:
Anyone with a bit of gaming experience in 8th...

Is it worth building a list around Brigade and therefore CP? So far I've got:

Big Mek w/ KFF 75
Big Mek w/ KFF 75
Warboss w/ big choppa 68
Warboss w/ big choppa 68

Gretchin 30
Gretchin 30
Gretchin 30
30 Boyz – big choppa 189
30 Boyz – big choppa 189
30 Boyz – big choppa 189

Nob w/ Waaagh banner 79
Kommandos w/ 2 burnas 45
Kommandos w/ 2 burnas 45

Skorcha 66
Skorcha 66
Skorcha 66

Kustom Mega-Kannon 38
Kustom Mega-Kannon 38
Kustom Mega-Kannon 38

1424
Thoughts? Or not worth building a list around maximising CP?

Hi, a decent list using the brigade detachment is possible, but you need a lot of cheap and effective units. Weirdboyz, kommandos and mek gunz basically. Grots are uselss, don't field more than a single unit of 10, save points for the mobs of boyz. Deffkoptas with shootas are better than skorcha buggies.

You can go with something like that:

warboss, pk, bike

2x weirdboy

6x 30 boyz, nob, big choppa

3x KMK

3x Deffkopta

3x 5 kommandos, 2 burnas, nob

painboy

grotsnik


Maybe a nob with the banner cutting a unit of kommandos and taking cheaper mek gunz instead of KMKs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nithaniel wrote:
I'm really struggling with lootas because they are the auto target for turn 1 deep strikers. I'm running them in 2x5 in a trukk or 3x5 in a wagon. I equip the vehicles with big shootas so they can still target from distance then disembark and assault with the vehicles. Once i've used 10 bustas plus 2x5 lootas in the wagon with deffrolla and shot the wagon forward turn 1 then diesmbarked.

Lootas are unreliable due to the variability in shots.

How is the best way to play them?

Also ere we go in my opinion is re-roll both dice or none. I so want it to be the other way but have a look in YMDC for the justifications for this.

Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.

I largely agree on not spamming Grots to max CP as CP are not really worth gimping your list to aquire. More Boyz would be the way to go in a Brigade list, but even then I would need to consider if another set of detachments would be an overall superior list.

As for Lootas, I would think about having them embarked to give them more durability. 10 Lootas in a Trukk have essentially 20 wounds for 252 points. 10 of which are T6 with a 4+ save. Even in cover lootas are really only going to have a 5+ save, and will still be T4. It also gives you mobility if needed depending on Firing lanes. For the same points (255) you could instead take 15 lootas. So you would have a 50% increase in damage but a reduction in durability and mobility. 5 fewer wounds (though this is mitigated somewhat by multiple damage weapons that hit the trukk) and 7" less movement, so if you end up out of position it is harder to quickly re-deploy.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Slaktur wrote:
I think they just explaining a reroll for players that dont know what it is. That's the argument i YMDC to, that you reroll that charge roll, therefor 2 dices. I have lost one or two dice rerollable charge and battlewagon partial whittin a KFF bubble in one week

I'm going with ere we go allows rerolls to either or both dice, but honestly it could go either way. If it's both dice only this will be a massive nerf to orks whose only competitve list right now is boy squads and I don't think orks can be competitive without it.

Regarding the kff bubble I do not think raw or intended is for it it be wholly within for every model. That is not how the rule is written at all nor how it's been played on warhammer tv. Entirely is not wholly and is in reference to the unit being entirely within the kff. Not the entire unit being wholly within. I think the gw dev team was explicit in thier term of use for wholly and I don't think stretching the ambiguity of the word entirely to encompass both unit and model as being wholly is anywhere near that intent.

GUNGO, how did they play it on warhammer tv????

They played it with the wagon partial under is still covered. But the warhammertv is usually the community team or other gw staff but not rules team and even they have made mistakes in the past so it's not perfect justification. I can't look up twitchtv at work but you can look at the Ork games by subscribing to warhammertv channel. I forget which date was the game but it was an earlier game and it didn't have the battlewagon wholly within.
Hint of advice if you have Amazon prime you get 1 free subscription to a twitch channel a month.

 Blackie wrote:


Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.

My lootas are well known by my regular ooponents as higher target priority that other stuff. In every game I haven't embarked them they get turn 1 deep struck and shot then flee or just straight die.

But if in a trukk I don't even move the trukk unless I have to so no loss there

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.

My lootas are well known by my regular ooponents as higher target priority that other stuff. In every game I haven't embarked them they get turn 1 deep struck and shot then flee or just straight die.

But if in a trukk I don't even move the trukk unless I have to so no loss there

Just remember that you should be able to push most deepstrikers out of range of targets if you choose to.

Minimum squads of lootas and burnas are the wrong way to go. With maximum squads, it becomes worth it to use a CP to increase their output. Since number of shots is a single roll, using a CP to reroll 1s for number of shots increases the output of the whole squad by 1/6 and heavily weighting the number of shots away from 1. A general rule of thumb is that you need 2 CP in your list dedicated to each squad of burnas and lootas you include.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe 1 CP for burnas. They aren't likely to shoot more than 3 times in a game. Lootas shooting 6 times a game is also a bit optimistic.

Ok fellow kommandas, been thinking about this flyer stuff a bit.

Ran my boyz against some flyas.

Ruff lists:
150 boyz, 2 bosses, weirdboy, lootas, grotsnik
Vs
3xStormtalon, 1xStormraven, 10 terminators, 2x5 sanguinors

Kind of close, if it ended on turn 5, I would have a chance of having enough bodies left to cap more objectives. Obviously some missions are better than others.

However if opponent optimized more and brought more flyers, no chance. I read thru the ideas on here and i don't see how tank bustas or anything else can work, also it risks making your list worse against all the regular opponents.

I think a full squad or 2 of grots would really help with objectives and your survivability. 2 would be about 240pts and basically fearless with da runtherd.

You can't kill the flyas, that's impossible. Instead you must realize da truth. There is no flyas, that can kill da green tide.

LiMunPai wrote:
Minimum squads of lootas and burnas are the wrong way to go. With maximum squads, it becomes worth it to use a CP to increase their output. Since number of shots is a single roll, using a CP to reroll 1s for number of shots increases the output of the whole squad by 1/6 and heavily weighting the number of shots away from 1. A general rule of thumb is that you need 2 CP in your list dedicated to each squad of burnas and lootas you include.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe 1 CP for burnas. They aren't likely to shoot more than 3 times in a game. Lootas shooting 6 times a game is also a bit optimistic.

This makes total sense, thanks! I'm still in 7th thinking but of course you can still split fire the squad should you need to so bigger squads it is!

Obviosuly you'd have to specify targets for the squad prior to rolling/re-rolling number of shots though. Its rough on orks because those CP are so valuable for that time your 30 strong squad takes huge casualties.

 Nithaniel wrote:

This makes total sense, thanks! I'm still in 7th thinking but of course you can still split fire the squad should you need to so bigger squads it is!

Obviosuly you'd have to specify targets for the squad prior to rolling/re-rolling number of shots though. Its rough on orks because those CP are so valuable for that time your 30 strong squad takes huge casualties.

You'll normally have leadership 30 on any Boyz that haven't been sent off with Da Jump! if you keep your Boyz blobbed up, take at least 90 Boyz, and have some durability upgrades like KFF and Painboy. I agree that you should have 2CP saved for each squad you plan to send out with Da Jump!, though.

dont feel like reading through 42pgs to see if this has been brought up.

Forgeworld orks. Some of the "variants" were merged into one model (kill tank vs kill bursta or blasta) but some seem to be missing entirely.

Megadread comes to mind. Theres rules for meka but no mega, yet the website references the Xenos index for the rules for a Mega dread.
Has anyone found the rules for a mega dread?

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Why did you embark lootas? They have a 48'' range, they don't need to move. Lootas should stay in cover and fire for the entire game. They have the range to do so and hitting on 5s is much better than on 6s. Use 2-3 min units in cover but add some other shooty squads like tankbustas in trukks. Lootas are still decent but, like any other ork shooty unit, far from being great.

My lootas are well known by my regular ooponents as higher target priority that other stuff. In every game I haven't embarked them they get turn 1 deep struck and shot then flee or just straight die.

But if in a trukk I don't even move the trukk unless I have to so no loss there

Ok, but with a trukk they become way too expensive just for an extra protection, with the same amount of points you can add 5 other lootas. A 10-15 man unit of lootas is a high priority target, 2-4 units of 5 aren't. The key with lootas is to keep them MSU so you opponent may ignore them or he can target them with multiple units since they can be spammed in the entire ork deployment zone. Lootas are supposed to fire 2-3 turns, the time your close combat units need to assault.