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Use single buggies and min units of kommandos to go for objectives, and of course artillery on those ones in your backline. Maybe empty trukks if you already delivered their cargo or the orks that were embarked have been killed previously.

malcontent999 wrote:
I've been having some luck splitting my mobs of 30 50/50, but I've left out special weapons this edition. They just cost too much for what they've done for me. I have had some fun with small units of kommandos with 2 rokkits each. They can be difficult to move from cover being t4 4+, and pop up wherever you need the firepower. I couple this with a few small units of koptas which just got a little cheaper with CA and can do pretty much the same but also have the threat of bombs. Since everyone can split fire now, I never really feel like taking shootas with my choppas has been a setback, but having some extra shots at up to 18" has been handy to harass exposed units or knock the last couple wounds off of low grade characters.

Matches my experience.

I experimented with giving a mob 3 rokkits+kombi-rokkit on nob and mob it up with another rokkit+kombi rokkit before jumping them. While it's not useless, spending 76 points on 1-3 rokkit hits is not exactly a good trade.

Better invest those points in artillery, weird boyz or tank bustas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ming wrote:
This sunday I had a game against Death Guard.

Tbh I made some rookie mistakes but Overall fighting against an army with Codex is just plain unfair.

A Daemon prince crushed my Morkanaut in 1 turn... It is just to easy for them to get a Turn 1 Charge... as Orks we rely on luck (Da jump + 9 Inch Charge and only one squad).

While I agree with the codex vs index being unfair...
How did that work with the daemon prince? Without Warptime (which requires psyker from CSM or TS), he moves 12" plus another 2d6" charge. A biker warboss can do the same.
Besides that, a prince with dual claws can do 7x 2 damage, but wounds on 5s and you still get a 5+ save.
A prince with axe and dice luck might hit 4 attacks, but still wounds on 4+ and deals no more than 3 damage per failed save.

So even with ridiculous dice luck and +2 to wound from stratagem and psyhic power, he should not have been able to one-shot your naut.

Bloat drones seem overpowerd...

As I said, orks don't have the tools to handle them. Just accept that they will fry a bunch of orks each turn.
I play death guard myself and even codex armies with great shooting struggle to take them down. I a recent game two units of dark angel hellblasters had to shoot one drone for three turns and spend three CP on weapons of the dark age to take it down.

The Stratagem that gets 1 pox walker for each infantry model that dies is just broken, it just doesn´t make sense to Charge against Cultists...

The range of the stratagem is 7", you should usually be able to charge the pox walkers instead of the cultists. Storm boyz or kommandoz help a lot here.

As we were playing for objectives the lack of mobility was an issue and as ork you just can´t have a unit wasting time going for objectives (except for gretchins), you Need all those orks running to the enemy.

I think this is just another symptom of not having a codex yet. In general it's better to sit on objective instead of going for the enemy though, even if it's boring as hell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Use single buggies and min units of kommandos to go for objectives, and of course artillery on those ones in your backline. Maybe empty trukks if you already delivered their cargo or the orks that were embarked have been killed previously.

While a good advice in general, the daemon prince +2 bloat drone element in death guard armies is incredibly good at taking out those objective holders. Each one can clear an objective of cheap objective holders each turn. A drone can reliably take out two KMK crews per turn.

Bloat drones seem overpowerd...

As I said, orks don't have the tools to handle them. Just accept that they will fry a bunch of orks each turn.
I play death guard myself and even codex armies with great shooting struggle to take them down. I a recent game two units of dark angel hellblasters had to shoot one drone for three turns and spend three CP on weapons of the dark age to take it down.

He managed to get some wounds in in the Shooting fase and then the Prince did 13 Wounds (then it blew itself up in the next Shooting fase...) He managed to Charge ´cause I got turn one and moved forward.

The prince had a couple of artifacts i think.

The Stratagem that gets 1 pox walker for each infantry model that dies is just broken, it just doesn´t make sense to Charge against Cultists...

The range of the stratagem is 7", you should usually be able to charge the pox walkers instead of the cultists. Storm boyz or kommandoz help a lot here.

I failed me fist Da Jumo test (with a +3 from Da Boyz and Gretchins (yes, I did CP it and failed again)), so no "deep striking".

I think this is just another symptom of not having a codex yet. In general it's better to sit on objective instead of going for the enemy though, even if it's boring as hell.

Come on... we are ORKS!

Ming wrote:
He managed to get some wounds in in the Shooting fase and then the Prince did 13 Wounds (then it blew itself up in the next Shooting fase...) He managed to Charge ´cause I got turn one and moved forward.

The prince had a couple of artifacts i think.

The only way to archive 13 wounds with a daemon prince is stupid dice luck. Not much you can do about that.

First of all, a character can only ever have one relic. For the daemon prince this is almost always the suppurating pate, which give him a 2+ save and deals mortal wounds for successful saves on a 4+. He cannot have the sword, and all other relics don't do damage.

Second, DG daemon princes cannot have any plague weapons, so no re-rolling to wound rolls and no mortal wounds from rolling sixes after buffing him with blades of putrefaction.

So, on average, a dual talon prince (which is considered best for DG) would hit 6.8 (2+ with re-roll), with both VotLW and blades wound 4.5 times (5+ +2 to wound), with 3 wound being unsaved (AP -2) for a total of 6 damage. So, even if you used the undegraded smash profile on him (use crush against daemon princes with plate), you would get 2-3 mortal wounds back from the relic.

So, don't fret it, you just had bad luck in that regard. If dice luck swings the other way, your morkanaut might just crush the daemon prince right into the ground.

malcontent999 wrote:
I've been having some luck splitting my mobs of 30 50/50, but I've left out special weapons this edition. They just cost too much for what they've done for me. I have had some fun with small units of kommandos with 2 rokkits each. They can be difficult to move from cover being t4 4+, and pop up wherever you need the firepower. I couple this with a few small units of koptas which just got a little cheaper with CA and can do pretty much the same but also have the threat of bombs. Since everyone can split fire now, I never really feel like taking shootas with my choppas has been a setback, but having some extra shots at up to 18" has been handy to harass exposed units or knock the last couple wounds off of low grade characters.

Koptas got cheaper in CA? You mean FW Warkoptas? If you meant Deffkoptas, I've missed something!

tl bigshootas got cheaper, so that's it.

 Jidmah wrote:
The one thing you need to be careful with are pox walkers. While they are nowhere near as deadly as boyz, they replenish their ranks whenever they kill and infantry model, make sure you never let them charge your boyz, or you'll find yourself quickly swamped in pox walkers. There also is a stratagem that allows pox walkers to be created whenever infantry dies within 7" of them, which works both for his and your infantry. If you have the choice to kill cultists, pox walkers, marines or plague bearers, always kill pox walkers first, they can't replenish if they are wiped out. A unit of choppa boyz will probably take them down, unless they have multiple buffs.

Truth. Those buggers are annoying.

Just remember to use choppa boyz on them, and don't forget they can shoot their pistols in your following shooting phase, if you get stuck in. For some reason I forget that one alot.

Ashkayel wrote:

malcontent999 wrote:
I've been having some luck splitting my mobs of 30 50/50, but I've left out special weapons this edition. They just cost too much for what they've done for me. I have had some fun with small units of kommandos with 2 rokkits each. They can be difficult to move from cover being t4 4+, and pop up wherever you need the firepower. I couple this with a few small units of koptas which just got a little cheaper with CA and can do pretty much the same but also have the threat of bombs. Since everyone can split fire now, I never really feel like taking shootas with my choppas has been a setback, but having some extra shots at up to 18" has been handy to harass exposed units or knock the last couple wounds off of low grade characters.

Koptas got cheaper in CA? You mean FW Warkoptas? If you meant Deffkoptas, I've missed something!

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Kopta rokkits and twin big shootas got cheaper, making deffkoptas cheaper.

malcontent999 wrote:

Ashkayel wrote:

Koptas got cheaper in CA? You mean FW Warkoptas? If you meant Deffkoptas, I've missed something!

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Kopta rokkits and twin big shootas got cheaper, making deffkoptas cheaper.

No problem, I don’t know why I missed that in CA, probably because they are still overpriced...

Ashkayel wrote:

malcontent999 wrote:

Ashkayel wrote:

Koptas got cheaper in CA? You mean FW Warkoptas? If you meant Deffkoptas, I've missed something!

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. Kopta rokkits and twin big shootas got cheaper, making deffkoptas cheaper.

No problem, I don’t know why I missed that in CA, probably because they are still overpriced...

They are cheaper than what they were last edition with bombs. The only reason Deffkoptas are so expensive now is because they come in bombs. You can play them with out bombs, but you are already paying for them might as well take them.

Most competitive list with the fewest possible drops? Going first seems really important for orks so what do people do to get that +1 to the first turn roll?

BAN wrote:
Most competitive list with the fewest possible drops? Going first seems really important for orks so what do people do to get that +1 to the first turn roll?

I actually think that going first is slightly less important to Orks than to a lot of other factions.

If you want to limit your drops then you can:

1) Always maximise unit size.

2) Use transports, even though they kind of suck. You can make a noblist with 3 battle-wagons with a helping of Kustom Mega Kannons (6 KMK can count as a single drop)

3) Limit your amount of characters, or deploy some of them in a trukk. But remember that your KFF-meks and painboyz should be deployed disembarked alongside your troops.

4) If you bring a Stompa, then you will probably go first before you are tabled.

Hey Guys,

So I'm a new player but I had my first few games with Orks at 800 points against ultra marines.

I had:
Warboss with pk
big mek kff
2 x weirdboyz with wp and da jump
2 x 30 boyz /w pk nob
4x nobs with pk 1x nob 5x ammo runt

my boyz were 20 choppa 10 shoota units.

he had

chapter master on bike
2 x razorback with twin autocannon
3x scout squads
2x tactical squad
1x tech marine on bike

he gave his cm a 3cmd point abilty to get a 6' reroll bubble - which was horrendous.

we played two games with these lists.

In the first game I failed all of my da jump charges. The first turn he killed an entire boy squad - I thought at this point I was finished.

Turn 2 he had re-positioned to get more shots on the boyz and left a small gap in his backline so I jumped the nob squad, they failed the charge but did well soaking up a lot of shots the next turn, they also managed to kill a a couple of marines with the runt rerolls.

Turn 3 I charged the nobz, and the remaining boyz charged into his closest tactical squad. I got lucky with a big charge for the nobz so I was able to consolidate into his chapter master. I also did a funky move by jumping a weridboy into range so he could smite. He actually made his charge too only to die in overwatch, doh.

From then on amazingly I slowly killed everything, the nobz were pretty resilient and he puts all the attacks he could on them, while the boyz did some work.

Eventually all my characters got into combat and a smite from my weirdboy finished his cm. Eventually the game ended with him having a 4 wound razorback surrounded by my big mek, boss and weirdboy.

A really fun game and it amazed me that even with such a horrible antihorde list I still managed to steamroll his dudes once the boyz got into combat.

I'll write up the next game tomorrow, but it didn't go as well!

I think one thing that I learnt was that jumping one squad is very risky and it needs backup to split the shooting if the charge fails.

Yeah hinging the game on a 9" re-roll charge can be exciting, but perhaps not the best strategy. I think, accounting for 'ere we go and/or command re-roll, your jump charge has a roughly 50% chance for success.

Hopefully you have some enclosed buildings on your board!

What are some good tactics to do with Da Jump?

I've given up Da Jumping units to do a 9" charge, even though the odds are better than most other factions, I find the risk not worth it.

Lately I've been dabbling with Da Jumping 30 shoota boyz and maybe using Dakka Dakka Dakka (depending on the target). I've been having a lot more success with this one. If I can land the boyz on an objective it's great, even if I don't need the objective it works as a form of area denial.
I treat them as a disposable unit, so once I Da Jump them their main goal is to distract my opponent and sit on that objective. If it works out, the opponent is trading shots with my shoota boyz while my choppa boyz walk up with a warboss for the charge.

I used to try Da Jumping tankbustas but have opted for loading them up in supa-skorcha big trakks. I found that Da Jumping tankbustas got me mostly even trades, which was okay but I wanted to do a bit better. I find that using two big trakks is ideal, they're massive targets for my enemy but so far I've held onto at least one into the late game.

One thing I haven't tried but plan to is try Da Jumping Flash Gitz, I know they're not the most competitive unit but I have a weak spot for them. The hopeful plan is to put them up in cover, near an objective if possible, and lay down fire. I would probably aim for somewhere in the middle of the map, for more of an area control approach. with at least one enemy unit in range so I don't waste their shooting. Ideally they'll sit there for the entire game.

I've only played a few games, but I love Da Jumping Shoota Boyz and rolling a lot of dice; its fun and as you said, even if they don't make the charge, they still do something.

I've been thinking about Jumping a squad of grots; 90/120 points for a squad of 30/40... that said, statistically they're not going to do much of anything, doubly so without a Runtherd (really sad he's not a member of the squad that can go with them - having a jumping morale reducer too would be great). Add in Warpath - and you have a horde of S3 guns backed up by S2 attacks (S2/T2 units not doing much though :( ); they may die in droves, but perhaps they can tie units up and buy time.

Haven't tested the Grot theory yet though.

Anyone have any success with Gorka/Morka-nauts? I loved them (just it was fun to roll lots of dice with the Gorkanaut in melee/shooting) - but I realized that I've been playing them wrong; if you're advancing (which you should be), you can't use the Heavy Guns, and your Assault weapons are at -1... and if they move without advancing, they can shoot everything at no penalty - but, you don't bring them for shooting, you bring them for melee; their shooting is virtually painless, even on a 5+.

They seem like a disorganized mess - you want them in melee, but if you get them there faster, you lose pretty much all the ranged weaponry. If you get them there slower, well, you can't count on the guns to do anything to begin with anyways.

I almost always Da Jump tankbustas turn 1. You mentioned "even trade" and I would agree, they typically do their points in damage. But I'm actually really okay with that, for shooting something off the board and then absorbing some shots, I'll take it (you don't get much better with our index IMO).

Then I typically jump characters around the table. Warboss when I need an advance + charge on boyz that were far away, or a character on a hard to reach objective, or a painboy near a squad of boyz ready to fight. Sometimes even the weirdboy himself.

fe40k wrote:
I've only played a few games, but I love Da Jumping Shoota Boyz and rolling a lot of dice; its fun and as you said, even if they don't make the charge, they still do something.

I've been thinking about Jumping a squad of grots; 90/120 points for a squad of 30/40... that said, statistically they're not going to do much of anything, doubly so without a Runtherd (really sad he's not a member of the squad that can go with them - having a jumping morale reducer too would be great). Add in Warpath - and you have a horde of S3 guns backed up by S2 attacks (S2/T2 units not doing much though :( ); they may die in droves, but perhaps they can tie units up and buy time.

Haven't tested the Grot theory yet though.

Anyone have any success with Gorka/Morka-nauts? I loved them (just it was fun to roll lots of dice with the Gorkanaut in melee/shooting) - but I realized that I've been playing them wrong; if you're advancing (which you should be), you can't use the Heavy Guns, and your Assault weapons are at -1... and if they move without advancing, they can shoot everything at no penalty - but, you don't bring them for shooting, you bring them for melee; their shooting is virtually painless, even on a 5+.

They seem like a disorganized mess - you want them in melee, but if you get them there faster, you lose pretty much all the ranged weaponry. If you get them there slower, well, you can't count on the guns to do anything to begin with anyways.

You could spread the grots out into a chain 2 models deep across quite a large area of the battlefield to act as a physical barrier to block movement. 40 grots, 2 models deep equals 22" line across the board the enemy can't move into unless they kill the grots. Could serve to block the movement of fast units. Since shooting and charges happen after movement, you'll have basically hamstrung your opponents first move with their fast units like bikes, cavalry, monsters, jump infantry etc. as they can't move within an inch of the grots and the grots could be spaced such that the first grot is 10" away from that unit, his base is ~1", the grot behind him is 2" away from that grot, his base is ~1", then the opponent can't move within an inch of him, so that means that model has to move 15" to clear the unit, and that is just for the closest model. If the unit is deployed in a quite deep formation on the table, they won't be getting over the grot wall.

After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.

 Multimoog wrote:
After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.

I think kommandos definitely can be worth it. There appears to be two ways of using them: Either take minimum 45 points squads that you can drop on objectives, or use to tie up exposed and weakened enemy units. These mini squads you will not use all at once, but sprinkle down over your first three turns.

The other way is to take maximum squads of 15, and use them to overload a flank along with jumped in boyz. If you jump in 30 boyz and 60 kommandos, then you will end up in melee with a lot of bodies. And those that fail the charge might well survive till your next turn, where they can move, shoot and charge normally.

 Multimoog wrote:
After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.

If I'm honest, I tend to agree with you. Although this thread seems to think they are amazing, I've not seen a list that leans into kommandos and actually does well in a major tournament. Boyz and Stormboyz are much more common in top tables. I've largely ignored kommandos in my list building.

Personally, the max squad size is an issue, along with their cost. Morale becomes a problem very fast without a 30 man squad around, you don't have +1atk with more than 20, you can't command point re-roll more than 1 charge (so every charge except 1 has about a 40% chance to go off I believe), and you can't warpath on one large squad as effectively. Any smart opponent shoots 7-9 men off each of your 15 man kommando squads and all of a sudden your entire army has run off the field. I do not think free burnas make up for all these negatives, especially since they can not shoot before they charge due to range.

However, I have never fielded them. So I could easily be wrong.

 Quackzo wrote:
What are some good tactics to do with Da Jump?

I've given up Da Jumping units to do a 9" charge, even though the odds are better than most other factions, I find the risk not worth it.

Lately I've been dabbling with Da Jumping 30 shoota boyz and maybe using Dakka Dakka Dakka (depending on the target). I've been having a lot more success with this one. If I can land the boyz on an objective it's great, even if I don't need the objective it works as a form of area denial.
I treat them as a disposable unit, so once I Da Jump them their main goal is to distract my opponent and sit on that objective. If it works out, the opponent is trading shots with my shoota boyz while my choppa boyz walk up with a warboss for the charge.

I used to try Da Jumping tankbustas but have opted for loading them up in supa-skorcha big trakks. I found that Da Jumping tankbustas got me mostly even trades, which was okay but I wanted to do a bit better. I find that using two big trakks is ideal, they're massive targets for my enemy but so far I've held onto at least one into the late game.

One thing I haven't tried but plan to is try Da Jumping Flash Gitz, I know they're not the most competitive unit but I have a weak spot for them. The hopeful plan is to put them up in cover, near an objective if possible, and lay down fire. I would probably aim for somewhere in the middle of the map, for more of an area control approach. with at least one enemy unit in range so I don't waste their shooting. Ideally they'll sit there for the entire game.

I've only had good results by jumping 30-40 boyz, usually shootaboyz. Even if you fail the charge the opponent must deal with them, they become high priority letting other boyz and maybe stormboyz advance without being crippled. Flash gitz have heavy weapons and really don't want to move, that's why I wouldn't teleport them. I prefer giving them a transport since those 30-40 boyz that arrive by da jump are too scary for the opponent and if you teleport something else, like the gitz or bustas, they would be targeted and deleted the subsequent turn. They have 6+ save, so cover doesn't really make them safe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fe40k wrote:


Anyone have any success with Gorka/Morka-nauts? I loved them (just it was fun to roll lots of dice with the Gorkanaut in melee/shooting) - but I realized that I've been playing them wrong; if you're advancing (which you should be), you can't use the Heavy Guns, and your Assault weapons are at -1... and if they move without advancing, they can shoot everything at no penalty - but, you don't bring them for shooting, you bring them for melee; their shooting is virtually painless, even on a 5+.

They seem like a disorganized mess - you want them in melee, but if you get them there faster, you lose pretty much all the ranged weaponry. If you get them there slower, well, you can't count on the guns to do anything to begin with anyways.

I have decent results with the morkanaut in lists full of transports. He works basically as a bullet magnet giving the invuln to other units and soaking a lot of firepower. The gorkanaut has a better profile but it's a bit more expensive and needs a big mek with KFF which makes the whole combo a huge ponts sink. The morkanaut has also a better shooting, even if he doesn't actually do very much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Multimoog wrote:
After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.

I think they're overrated but still a solid unit. Stormboyz and boyz are more efficient IMHO. Maybe you have to build a list around kommandos to make them protagonists in battle. I sometimes use them, in min squads or/and large ones but usually when I don't bring the green tide.

hollow one wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.

If I'm honest, I tend to agree with you. Although this thread seems to think they are amazing, I've not seen a list that leans into kommandos and actually does well in a major tournament. Boyz and Stormboyz are much more common in top tables. I've largely ignored kommandos in my list building.

Personally, the max squad size is an issue, along with their cost. Morale becomes a problem very fast without a 30 man squad around, you don't have +1atk with more than 20, you can't command point re-roll more than 1 charge (so every charge except 1 has about a 40% chance to go off I believe), and you can't warpath on one large squad as effectively. Any smart opponent shoots 7-9 men off each of your 15 man kommando squads and all of a sudden your entire army has run off the field. I do not think free burnas make up for all these negatives, especially since they can not shoot before they charge due to range.

However, I have never fielded them. So I could easily be wrong.

Yeah, it seems like they’re really situational, in situations that won’t crop up in every game (such as not being able,to bring them out in cover) You can mob them up to mitigate mob rule to some extent but it’s easier to do that just jumping a 40-mob. And even with their improved save, it just means opponents will shoot all their high AP stuff and erase them. With a 40-blob the opponent still needs 2-3turns to deal with it all, a much better distraction that costs less. 40boyz with a PK and BC costs 20pts less than 30 kommandos with 2 BCs... and you have to spend a command point to even make a mob of 25 kommandos with 5 left over. If they fail the charge it’s much more damaging and expensive than the 40 mob.

 Multimoog wrote:

hollow one wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
After having played them in a couple games, it’s starting to feel like Kommandos aren’t worth it. I get wanting to have first turn charges but it seems like it’d just be cheaper and more effective to jump a 30 boy mob. Having smaller units of kommandos pop up and fail to get the charge means they’re erased immediately and not enough of a distraction.

If I'm honest, I tend to agree with you. Although this thread seems to think they are amazing, I've not seen a list that leans into kommandos and actually does well in a major tournament. Boyz and Stormboyz are much more common in top tables. I've largely ignored kommandos in my list building.

Personally, the max squad size is an issue, along with their cost. Morale becomes a problem very fast without a 30 man squad around, you don't have +1atk with more than 20, you can't command point re-roll more than 1 charge (so every charge except 1 has about a 40% chance to go off I believe), and you can't warpath on one large squad as effectively. Any smart opponent shoots 7-9 men off each of your 15 man kommando squads and all of a sudden your entire army has run off the field. I do not think free burnas make up for all these negatives, especially since they can not shoot before they charge due to range.

However, I have never fielded them. So I could easily be wrong.

Yeah, it seems like they’re really situational, in situations that won’t crop up in every game (such as not being able,to bring them out in cover) You can mob them up to mitigate mob rule to some extent but it’s easier to do that just jumping a 40-mob. And even with their improved save, it just means opponents will shoot all their high AP stuff and erase them. With a 40-blob the opponent still needs 2-3turns to deal with it all, a much better distraction that costs less. 40boyz with a PK and BC costs 20pts less than 30 kommandos with 2 BCs... and you have to spend a command point to even make a mob of 25 kommandos with 5 left over. If they fail the charge it’s much more damaging and expensive than the 40 mob.

You are not going to set them up in cover if you want to charge. You will be subtracting 2 from your charge roll when charging out of cover, giving you a very slim chance of making the charge. Normally you have a 49% chance of making a 9" charge, so if you deepstrike four units of kommandos and a squad of boyz, then you will almost certainly cause some major grief. Regards

 Multimoog wrote:
Yeah, it seems like they’re really situational, in situations that won’t crop up in every game (such as not being able,to bring them out in cover) You can mob them up to mitigate mob rule to some extent but it’s easier to do that just jumping a 40-mob. And even with their improved save, it just means opponents will shoot all their high AP stuff and erase them. With a 40-blob the opponent still needs 2-3turns to deal with it all, a much better distraction that costs less. 40boyz with a PK and BC costs 20pts less than 30 kommandos with 2 BCs... and you have to spend a command point to even make a mob of 25 kommandos with 5 left over. If they fail the charge it’s much more damaging and expensive than the 40 mob.

Yeah, you put all that effort in for a 25 man, and still don't get then 20boyz +1 attack if you stick the charge, and you can't Warpath them before you send them off to die. Sooooo... 25 boyz - 125 attacks, 150 points. 25 kommandos - 75 attacks, 225 points and 1CP. I mean that's worst case scenario, but its over twice as efficient.

I think there is an argument for bringing enough kommando drops that leaves your army with zero boyz on the field after deployment, basically making your army an excellent beta strike army. I don't know what that list looks like (90 kommandos and 12 KMK? lol), you'd have to count your drops carefully, but it is something that I would imagine has some success. But if you bring even one squad of 30 boyz on the floor, then all your kommandos in the air provide zero damage mitigation because they still get to shoot boyz turn 1.

hollow one wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
Yeah, it seems like they’re really situational, in situations that won’t crop up in every game (such as not being able,to bring them out in cover) You can mob them up to mitigate mob rule to some extent but it’s easier to do that just jumping a 40-mob. And even with their improved save, it just means opponents will shoot all their high AP stuff and erase them. With a 40-blob the opponent still needs 2-3turns to deal with it all, a much better distraction that costs less. 40boyz with a PK and BC costs 20pts less than 30 kommandos with 2 BCs... and you have to spend a command point to even make a mob of 25 kommandos with 5 left over. If they fail the charge it’s much more damaging and expensive than the 40 mob.

Yeah, you put all that effort in for a 25 man, and still don't get then 20boyz +1 attack if you stick the charge, and you can't Warpath them before you send them off to die. Sooooo... 25 boyz - 125 attacks, 150 points. 25 kommandos - 75 attacks, 225 points and 1CP. I mean that's worst case scenario, but its over twice as efficient.

I think there is an argument for bringing enough kommando drops that leaves your army with zero boyz on the field after deployment, basically making your army an excellent beta strike army. I don't know what that list looks like (90 kommandos and 12 KMK? lol), you'd have to count your drops carefully, but it is something that I would imagine has some success. But if you bring even one squad of 30 boyz on the floor, then all your kommandos in the air provide zero damage mitigation because they still get to shoot boyz turn 1.

I think that this is a pretty bad idea. You need boyz, they are our best unit. A better strategy is to take only a single KFF-bubble with a painboy, a weirdboy or two, a warboss and 60-90 boyz. Put them on a single flank of the board, thus protecting you from some of his shooting, and saving the points of an additional Warbos, KFF-Mek and painboy, which you would have needed to extend coverage to a full green tide of 180-200 boyz. The above is about 800-900 points with 7-8 drops. Then you can deploy the rest as artillery, deepstrikers, character spam etc. It is essentially a half greentide with a configurable other half. In general, overloading a flank works well for Orks I think.

Uh let's just agree to disagree, if you go second against any reasonable army you're going to lose 30-70 wounds of boyz depending on their firepower. I don't personally think you have the room to land on a flank with 90 boys (and be out of range of... anything at all really). That is just too much size , and if you hide them behind each other you've just deployed them in a way that makes full squads of boyz late to the party, and thus easier to shoot at.

My imaginary kommando list doesn't mind going second, loses 5-8 KMK turn 1, then only takes overwatch damage on 90 boys assaulting turn 1. I would probably Da Jump Ghazkull up there with them in this list, give em something to rally around. I pay zero points in KFF or painboyz, but I take zero shooting damage before I charge.

edit: damnit I'm going to play this list! I'm selling myself on the idea.

hollow one wrote:
Uh let's just agree to disagree, if you go second against any reasonable army you're going to lose 30-70 wounds of boyz depending on their firepower. I don't personally think you have the room to land on a flank with 90 boys (and be out of range of... anything at all really). That is just too much size , and if you hide them behind each other you've just deployed them in a way that makes full squads of boyz late to the party, and thus easier to shoot at.

My imaginary kommando list doesn't mind going second, loses 5-8 KMK turn 1, then only takes overwatch damage on 90 boys assaulting turn 1. I would probably Da Jump Ghazkull up there with them in this list, give em something to rally around. I pay zero points in KFF or painboyz, but I take zero shooting damage before I charge.

edit: damnit I'm going to play this list! I'm selling myself on the idea.

A KFF-bubble is 18"inches in diamater aways. And you can indeed put it on a flank and protect yourself a little bit. Losing 50 boyz is still possible, especially against deepstiking termaganst or other gak, but this is hardly game-ending. SemperMortis runs a 90 kommando list, but I think he has a few squads of boyz in there as well.

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Orks) [63 PL, 1129pts] ++

Ghazghkull Thraka [11 PL, 215pts]

Weirdboy [4 PL, 62pts]: 3. Da Jump

Kommandos [8 PL, 142pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 12x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna

Kommandos [8 PL, 142pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 12x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna

Kommandos [8 PL, 142pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 12x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna

Kommandos [8 PL, 142pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 12x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna

Kommandos [8 PL, 142pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 12x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna

Kommandos [8 PL, 142pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 12x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Orks) [45 PL, 842pts] ++

Big Mek [5 PL, 84pts]: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-blasta

Warboss on Warbike [5 PL, 112pts]: Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Kombi-Skorcha, Warlord

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 168pts]
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 168pts]
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 168pts]
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon
. Gun: 5x Grot Gunner, Kustom Mega Kannon

Kommandos [8 PL, 142pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 12x Kommando
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna
. Kommando W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Burna

++ Total: [108 PL, 1971pts] ++

7 drops on the ground, 7 in the sky. I'll get back to you after I lose with this list!
edit: actually you can bring ALL powerklaws if you just drop some of the dumb weapons I gave the HQ.

That is not bad actually. I count 12 KMK, 105 kommandos and the characters. The guns a lone could kill a Leman russ tank if you get first turn, and you should have four units (if you include Ghaz) completing the charge on your first turn. You will do some damage.

Do you own 12 KMKs or will you be proxying teacups?