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I'm reading that Quicksilver still allows Slaanesh units to attack first.

Say we charge with a KoS and we already have Daemonettes in melee from the previous turn. The KoS attacks first. Our oppennt would then get to fight next but only if the unit has a similar ability to "quicksilver". if they don't than our Daemonettes attack before his unit they are engaged with.

The unit in question doesn't have the ability to always fight first innately, it's just part of the fight phase turn order.

The only part that changes is that if it's a Daemonette vs Daemonette fight then our opponent would fight first after our KoS.

Not many units have that rule so our Slaanesh units will be fighting first most times, even when we don't charge. Now I could be wrong but that is how I read the rule.

If my interpretation is correct mono-Slaanesh got a buff as we always fight first with everything, even if it isn't our turn (unless again fighting units with similar rules to "quicksilver".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurglings being -1 to hit in dense cover like woods. Sure, ruins don't do much good for improving survivability for Nurglings but -1 to hit with 5+/5++ still makes them hard to shift.

Take units of 3-5 and blast weapons don't improve against them at all.

Huge buff for Nurglings.

 warmaster21 wrote:
With all these changes im not even sure where thats going to leave me with mono slaanesh. Supreme command being changed, anti-horde ruleset.. maybe ill have to invest in some chariots or learn Age of sigmar (pray warhammer comes back)

Yeah, there's a lot not to like about these changes if you play mono-Slaanesh:

The engagement range change from 1" to 1/2" really hurts models on 25 mm bases like Daemonettes as fewer models will be able to attack in the fight phase.
Making characters more vulnerable to shooting really didn't help given our tissue paper characters; especially since we absolutely rely on the Heralds +1S aura.
While we have reliable ways to keep units in combat both Fiends and the Epitome have been made even more vulnerable than before.
I'm also disappointed that the Enrapturess's Lyre didn't get blast for its heavy firing mode.

Let's just hope were one of the early codices.

 Sersi wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
With all these changes im not even sure where thats going to leave me with mono slaanesh. Supreme command being changed, anti-horde ruleset.. maybe ill have to invest in some chariots or learn Age of sigmar (pray warhammer comes back)

Yeah, there's a lot not to like about these changes if you play mono-Slaanesh:

The engagement range change from 1" to 1/2" really hurts models on 25 mm bases like Daemonettes as fewer models will be able to attack in the fight phase.
Making characters more vulnerable to shooting really didn't help given our tissue paper characters; especially since we absolutely rely on the Heralds +1S aura.
While we have reliable ways to keep units in combat both Fiends and the Epitome have been made even more vulnerable than before.
I'm also disappointed that the Enrapturess's Lyre didn't get blast for its heavy firing mode.

Let's just hope were one of the early codices.

Im hoping that summoning will change (or gain a new option) where we can use it like a medic and return models to units that way instead of only summoning new units. would at least do something... at the very least maybe they will let us take multiple heralds as a single HQ choice.. Hopefully with forgeworld updates Zarakynel becomes playable and falls under supreme leader so we can take her in a supreme command.

It appears that the strength of demons will be in units which where the opposite of competitive in 9th. That’s right, Greater Demons. First off engagement range is much better for them since 5’ inch vertical allows them to engage units on the second floor. Second not
having character protection isn’t as problematic for them, since it’s far weaker in 9th vs 8th. This makes taking a greater demon over a Buffing character far less painful, and means greater demons compare more favorable to other armies HQ’s.

I also think exalted Big Bird is genuinely great. 3++ permanently on 16 wound model is already a strong start. If you add the -1 damage warlord trait, and the 6+++ saves heal wounds exalted trait he’s nearly unkillable. Of course you can turn that 6+++ into permanent denies against grey knights, thousand Sons, Eldar, etc.

4++ keeper of secrets, 4+++ Great Unclean Ones, and protection against 8+ wounds bloodthirsters are solid options. In this case I think I like 4++ keeper of secrets to go with with my unkillable Lord of change, but there’s probably a more optimal combination somewhere out there.

Honestly, I’m not sure if anything besides Big bird is top tier competitive, but threat overload is a tried and true tactic. At the very least, I don’t think this is going to worse than blobs of guys protecting characters. That strategy got nerfed too much to remain viable. So with any luck Greater Demon builds will work, and demons won’t be bad until the codex drops.

I think Ol' Fatey has a place. He's not as tanky as an ELoC but his d3 CP before the game is really good, he's got a 36" Smite that goes off on 3+.

I think the key to GD is to run multiples. Depending on our daemon selection and points changes I can see a Brigade being a good option. Or take a battalion, pay 2CP and take a patrol as well. If you roll a 3+ for Fates pregame CP bonus the Pat is essentially free.

Salt donkey wrote:
It appears that the strength of demons will be in units which where the opposite of competitive in 9th. That’s right, Greater Demons. First off engagement range is much better for them since 5’ inch vertical allows them to engage units on the second floor. Second not
having character protection isn’t as problematic for them, since it’s far weaker in 9th vs 8th. This makes taking a greater demon over a Buffing character far less painful, and means greater demons compare more favorable to other armies HQ’s.

I also think exalted Big Bird is genuinely great. 3++ permanently on 16 wound model is already a strong start. If you add the -1 damage warlord trait, and the 6+++ saves heal wounds exalted trait he’s nearly unkillable. Of course you can turn that 6+++ into permanent denies against grey knights, thousand Sons, Eldar, etc.

4++ keeper of secrets, 4+++ Great Unclean Ones, and protection against 8+ wounds bloodthirsters are solid options. In this case I think I like 4++ keeper of secrets to go with with my unkillable Lord of change, but there’s probably a more optimal combination somewhere out there.

Honestly, I’m not sure if anything besides Big bird is top tier competitive, but threat overload is a tried and true tactic. At the very least, I don’t think this is going to worse than blobs of guys protecting characters. That strategy got nerfed too much to remain viable. So with any luck Greater Demon builds will work, and demons won’t be bad until the codex drops.

For some reason when i first read your post i thought you were talking about big daddy bird from forgeworld.

Keepers was one of the only realistic ways in which you could play mono slaanesh, they used to be only slightly more cost than a daemon prince with similar speed and better stats and a worse aura ability. While there are some good defensive options for exalted slaanesh mono slaanesh has been neutered a bit with horde changes, rework of supreme command, there is no way in which you could take keepers, daemon princes, heralds without running at least 2 detachments, and while there arent really good strategems / relics worth using on slaanesh daemons (im not too familiar with the new ones as i haven't bought any psychic awakening book after how insulting the DE book was) it still puts us on a disadvantage compared to other armies that dont need to take 2+ detachments to make the army work.

Im still not even sure what the stats are on keepers anymore they have changed like 2-3 times and i honestly cant tell if the most recent one is intentional or if they were just lazy copy/paste transcription errors.

Ill probably be sitting on the sidelines until i see a new DE and Daemon Codex, and we shall see how SoB turns out with the point changes on release but from the rumors the changes seem pretty bad in comparison.. though i will probably at least try a few games with my slaanesh daemons to see if i can even get them to run how i want with the changes.

Lords of Change are fun but they lack damage. They're only somewhat durable and worse, they can be safely screened, kited, and ignored by most factions.

ELoC's are quite tanky, or can be.

If you roll and get lucky (I know) they can have -1 to hit and 6+++ that heals a wound for every 6 rolled.

Give it the Impossible Robes and make it even harder to kill.

Smiting on 3+, 30" out if given the Rod (and I don't know why you wouldn't).

Not to mention on the smaller board there is less room to kite it around, he's in Smite range more or less the entire game and depending on terrain set up they can be easier to hide.

The GD's have gotten harder to kill in 9th, not easier.

Thinking of doing mono khorne to use some models i have in 9th.

Just looking into the new rules and i'm right in thinking strategic reserve is pretty much only worth it for the chance of your own board edge 1" count as charging thing?

In all other cases it appears the Denizens of the warp strat just trumps it!?

Also how have people been getting on with blood crushers? New strat from engine war, pts seem healthy now and 9th does not mess them up to much for coherency (obv run em in a 5) they seem pretty nasty, or is it a crush one unit - die next turn owing to poor defense still?

 slave.entity wrote:
Lords of Change are fun but they lack damage. They're only somewhat durable and worse, they can be safely screened, kited, and ignored by most factions.

Outside of things that no longer exist like unkillable dreadnoughts, could you name something tougher than a 16 W, 3++, 6+++ healing FNP, -1 damage model monster? I can’t. This is tougher than fully buffed magnus (who won’t always be fully buffed), knights with 3++ save (as a LOC with the regen upgrade has effectively 22.166 wounds, -1 D, and keeps his 3++ save in CC. Also he’s much more resilient to smite than knights since he gets 2, +2 denies.

You are right that he’s pillowfisted in combat but his psychic abilities + raw durability makes up for this. Remember you can spend 1CP to cast another power, meaning you could be using 3 mortal wound powers in 1 psychic phase. That adds up turn after turn. Even 5-3 S6 attacks add up when they do 3 damage and you keep attacking with him turn after turn. Don’t sleep on the LOC!

I play my LOC all the time. But casual only. When I want durability I take plaguebearers.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fun unit and far from unplayable. It just... doesn't contribute much. For your opponent, LoCs are more annoying than strong.

Also in 9th being unable to fall back and infernal gateway is a big problem. He's likely to get charged and spend the next 2 turns munching guardsmen.

just consider that 8th edition was the horde ediction, so for LOC wasn't a nice edition, now maybe could change, this will be the edition of elites, smaller/costly units can be a good target for LOC.

True. If people stop taking cheap screens LoC will be better.

 slave.entity wrote:
True. If people stop taking cheap screens LoC will be better.

if cultist raise to 6pts, i doubt we can see tons of cheap screens on tables

Hey Hey.... We finally got a Faction Focus and....

Daemon beasts and swarms can move like infantry through terrain.

Daemons in general can get a cover save easier, which counts for nothing when you have 6+ armor and an unmodifiable 5+ invulnerable save anyway.

Also Look Out Sir and the changes to Overwatch...okay.


Also Confirmation that the Keeper of Secrets has had is movement reduced down to 12" So effectively Realm Racer just gets you back to the 2" they just took away. Nice.

this was just a recap what we already know, telling us that Daemons gain nothing from the changes made with 9th

 Sersi wrote:
Hey Hey.... We finally got a Faction Focus and....

Daemon beasts and swarms can move like infantry through terrain.

Daemons in general can get a cover save easier, which counts for nothing when you have 6+ armor and an unmodifiable 5+ invulnerable save anyway.

Also Look Out Sir and the changes to Overwatch...okay.


Also Confirmation that the Keeper of Secrets has had is movement reduced down to 12" So effectively Realm Racer just gets you back to the 2" they just took away. Nice.

When was the KoS ever more than a 12" move? The 8th ed Daemon codex listed it as having 12" move; far as I know the CA book upgraded her wounds and added the new wargear options; she used to be a 12 wound GD when all others had 16 wounds. So it's 12 plus the 3" for the warlord trait plus 2" for realm racer. 17" move +1" to her charge range. Min threat distance is 20", max 29".

That's a long goddamn distance.

I like the Sinistrous hand. She's almost guaranteed to kill something and to regain lost wounds makes her quite tanky. The aegis is good too for the 5+++ save against mortal wounds.

Good to know my mono-Nurgle gets CP free trees.

jivardi wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Hey Hey.... We finally got a Faction Focus and....

Daemon beasts and swarms can move like infantry through terrain.

Daemons in general can get a cover save easier, which counts for nothing when you have 6+ armor and an unmodifiable 5+ invulnerable save anyway.

Also Look Out Sir and the changes to Overwatch...okay.


Also Confirmation that the Keeper of Secrets has had is movement reduced down to 12" So effectively Realm Racer just gets you back to the 2" they just took away. Nice.

When was the KoS ever more than a 12" move? The 8th ed Daemon codex listed it as having 12" move; far as I know the CA book upgraded her wounds and added the new wargear options; she used to be a 12 wound GD when all others had 16 wounds. So it's 12 plus the 3" for the warlord trait plus 2" for realm racer. 17" move +1" to her charge range. Min threat distance is 20", max 29".

That's a long goddamn distance.

I like the Sinistrous hand. She's almost guaranteed to kill something and to regain lost wounds makes her quite tanky. The aegis is good too for the 5+++ save against mortal wounds.

Good to know my mono-Nurgle gets CP free trees.

you might play 1 single KOS in casual games, but if you think to be competitive you play at least 3, in that case have a KOS so fast matter a few because it will be wipped out 1st turn. Demons need a new codex, was alredy old in last months of 8th, after marines release it was mediocre, now cant be better. A codex that relay on mass of infantry is not in good spot in 9th.

How is massed infantry bad?

This is a objective, mid board edition. Sure, Daemonettes and Bloodletters are squishy; don't ever see them NOT being squishy.

Plaguebearers are ideal for 9th. Sure it's harder to conga line them but they are extremely good at holding objectives and soaking attacks.

I don't know many Daemon players running just 1GD, not even in 8th ed. All of the EGD's are a threat now. Some more than others. The KoS and LoC are the hardest to kill; the GUO comes in 2nd for tanky; the BT if ignored will chew through units like they don't exist.

I don't think Daemons are that bad off in 9th edition. Blast hurts the squishier infantry but the changes to cover (not everyone played using ITC "magic box" rules) helps our infantry out more than it did in 8th edition.

jivardi wrote:
How is massed infantry bad?

This is a objective, mid board edition. Sure, Daemonettes and Bloodletters are squishy; don't ever see them NOT being squishy.

Plaguebearers are ideal for 9th. Sure it's harder to conga line them but they are extremely good at holding objectives and soaking attacks.

I don't know many Daemon players running just 1GD, not even in 8th ed. All of the EGD's are a threat now. Some more than others. The KoS and LoC are the hardest to kill; the GUO comes in 2nd for tanky; the BT if ignored will chew through units like they don't exist.

I don't think Daemons are that bad off in 9th edition. Blast hurts the squishier infantry but the changes to cover (not everyone played using ITC "magic box" rules) helps our infantry out more than it did in 8th edition.

very optimistic, we will see maybe you are right, i own hundred of demons infantry model, i would be happy if you are right

 blackmage wrote:

jivardi wrote:
How is massed infantry bad?

This is a objective, mid board edition. Sure, Daemonettes and Bloodletters are squishy; don't ever see them NOT being squishy.

Plaguebearers are ideal for 9th. Sure it's harder to conga line them but they are extremely good at holding objectives and soaking attacks.

I don't know many Daemon players running just 1GD, not even in 8th ed. All of the EGD's are a threat now. Some more than others. The KoS and LoC are the hardest to kill; the GUO comes in 2nd for tanky; the BT if ignored will chew through units like they don't exist.

I don't think Daemons are that bad off in 9th edition. Blast hurts the squishier infantry but the changes to cover (not everyone played using ITC "magic box" rules) helps our infantry out more than it did in 8th edition.

very optimistic, we will see maybe you are right, i own hundred of demons infantry model, i would be happy if you are right

We won't be top tier but don't think we'll be the worst either. Have to see in a few months what the meta is. This covid lockdown has cancelled/postponed tournaments and other gatherings. I can't even play at my LGS so I can't really test out the army against other armies. I'd have to play against myself and that's not really a fair outing.

Hope to have a new Codex in the next 12 months. Daemons aren't top tier, even with soup, so it's not like we can fall much further in the rankings.

I'm expecting CSM to be mid-low tier and daemon soup to be below CSM. No more 3x HQ Supreme Command hurts a lot.

I never souped so my Daemons aren't hit at all with changes to SC.

Guess we can't all be so lucky.

3 EGD of any or same type plus massed troops I think is going to be a very solid core for 9th. I'm likely going for undivided mix of PB blobs for objective sitting, horrors for my screens and forward troops and bloodletters for direct assault. Nurglings get the shelf.

As in 8th, our other non-HQ or troops choices are middling at best. I'm going to experiment with 2-3 skull cannons and a seeker blob.

jivardi wrote:
How is massed infantry bad?

This is a objective, mid board edition. Sure, Daemonettes and Bloodletters are squishy; don't ever see them NOT being squishy.

Plaguebearers are ideal for 9th. Sure it's harder to conga line them but they are extremely good at holding objectives and soaking attacks.

I don't know many Daemon players running just 1GD, not even in 8th ed. All of the EGD's are a threat now. Some more than others. The KoS and LoC are the hardest to kill; the GUO comes in 2nd for tanky; the BT if ignored will chew through units like they don't exist.

I don't think Daemons are that bad off in 9th edition. Blast hurts the squishier infantry but the changes to cover (not everyone played using ITC "magic box" rules) helps our infantry out more than it did in 8th edition.

Bloodletters used to be T4 and a 3+ save, or really khorne in general, rip brass armor.

I think massed infantry will go the way of the dodo. Nurglings, however, are poised to be amazing as troops. They can chuck a lot of wounds into an obsec tough 5 man unit.

I expect a mono-patrol of slaanesh (2 keepers and 1 daemonettes) for the aura and then an undivided bat to be the way to go.

The mirror will be uniquely valuable because tri-pointing is gone, leaving daemons one of the only ones able to lock into melee.

The character protection debuff is kind of a shadow buff to daemons whose HQs already often didn't get character protection (greater demons). It will also now be much easier to hide the two better greater demons (KoS and LoC) since they can both have LoS blocked by obscuring, which was a pipe dream for much of 8th.

Points will determine a lot, but I think daemons will be better off, not worse off. Not that they will be good; I very much doubt that, but I do think they will be better now.

 buddha wrote:
3 EGD of any or same type plus massed troops I think is going to be a very solid core for 9th. I'm likely going for undivided mix of PB blobs for objective sitting, horrors for my screens and forward troops and bloodletters for direct assault. Nurglings get the shelf.

As in 8th, our other non-HQ or troops choices are middling at best. I'm going to experiment with 2-3 skull cannons and a seeker blob.

I've been digging the idea of 3 soul grinders with the 3 EGD. They help to increase threat skew. I think having Slaanesh SG will be a good option - T1 move up the board, T2 advance and charge. Really, Soul Grinders have become better now that they can shoot in combat.

drakerocket wrote:
I think massed infantry will go the way of the dodo. Nurglings, however, are poised to be amazing as troops. They can chuck a lot of wounds into an obsec tough 5 man unit.

I expect a mono-patrol of slaanesh (2 keepers and 1 daemonettes) for the aura and then an undivided bat to be the way to go.

The mirror will be uniquely valuable because tri-pointing is gone, leaving daemons one of the only ones able to lock into melee.

The character protection debuff is kind of a shadow buff to daemons whose HQs already often didn't get character protection (greater demons). It will also now be much easier to hide the two better greater demons (KoS and LoC) since they can both have LoS blocked by obscuring, which was a pipe dream for much of 8th.

Points will determine a lot, but I think daemons will be better off, not worse off. Not that they will be good; I very much doubt that, but I do think they will be better now.

I am not so sure mass infantry will go the way of the dodo. the morale change in 9th ed benefits big blocks of infantry. Morale will not wipe a big squad now. So, that big blob of plague bearers will be so much harder to remove now, because even if you kill off half of the squad, the rest are not going to run from morale. Nurgle daemons seem to be good in 9th ed because 9th ed is about holding midboard objectives and they are very good at doing that.

Nurglings will be really good I feel. -1 to hit when in dense cover (trees particularly), 5++/5+++

Fiends will be good too. Enemy units can't fall back unless they have FLY. With FLY nerfed those units that can fall back can't shoot our fiends off the table (unless a special rule allows them to do so)

Opponents can also spend CP to force a unit to fall back out of combat with our fiends but that unit still isn't doing anything. I think units of 4-6 will be good for tying things up.

Also, expect more Assassins, specially with IG and Sisters. They don't mess up Orders and Sacred Rites nor do they mess with SM Chapter traits. The Callidus is especially nasty. A bolt pistol that does d3 mortals against our LD of 7 on 3d6 and her melee attacks with her phase blade are at S4, ap-3, 2 damage and we don't get our invul save. She can also fall back and then shoot and charge again. Plus with 4++ save and 5 wounds she'll be hard to kill.

And she can be left off the board and placed D6+3" away so a possible 4" "deepstrike" away from something valuable such as a character.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

I am not so sure mass infantry will go the way of the dodo. the morale change in 9th ed benefits big blocks of infantry. Morale will not wipe a big squad now. So, that big blob of plague bearers will be so much harder to remove now, because even if you kill off half of the squad, the rest are not going to run from morale. Nurgle daemons seem to be good in 9th ed because 9th ed is about holding midboard objectives and they are very good at doing that.

I am sure mass infantry will go the way of the dodo. Points will go up, and blast weapons will do maximum hits on 11+ models. Unit coherency will require the 6+ model unit for every model to be within 2" of two other models, if not they run away, until unit coherency is restored.