Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/06/06 23:24:47
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Most of you are probably familiar with most of the armies at this point.
GW has sent indices to the FLGSs and GW shops for people to preview them.
So we all should have a decent idea of what the new rules look like, including what the power levels of the armies are.
What are your opinions on power levels?
Tyrannids strike me as the new top-tier army. They're insanely fast, hit like bricks, have excellent shooting, and have excellent army synergy. Taken together, the other armies don't seem as good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 23:24:57
2017/06/06 23:34:04
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
I actually think there is a really good balance between that armies at the moment.
Tyranids do seem really good.. but at the same time they are what I have focused on the most so far... But they do seem to be one of the more variable lists
I think a big thing is that there has been a lot of change on what is good and not with the other races, so while there is a lot of balance between the armies.. it is a case a lot of people will need to change up what they own for these armies
2017/06/06 23:45:58
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
GodDamUser wrote: I actually think there is a really good balance between that armies at the moment.
Tyranids do seem really good.. but at the same time they are what I have focused on the most so far... But they do seem to be one of the more variable lists
I think a big thing is that there has been a lot of change on what is good and not with the other races, so while there is a lot of balance between the armies.. it is a case a lot of people will need to change up what they own for these armies
My impression is that they are too fast.
They can be across the table as early as turn 1.
That's a problem because the obvious counter to tyrranids is supposed to be shooting. But they are too fast for the shooting to matter.
And once they get into close combat, good night. It's over.
2017/06/06 23:50:18
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
I'm not really sure I can evaluate Tyranids well enough without seeing them play. I am pretty confident that Imperial Guard are absurdly good now, especially since they have access to all the other Imperial factions and can take Assassins. I suspect they beat Tyranids because they can easily screen the first turn assault and they can lay down just a ridiculous amount of fire on the big monsters. Ultimately a single Conscripts unit is going to suffice to make the rest of your army un-assaultable for a whole turn, and possibly more than that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 23:51:20
2017/06/06 23:53:35
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Dionysodorus wrote: I'm not really sure I can evaluate Tyranids well enough without seeing them play. I am pretty confident that Imperial Guard are absurdly good now, especially since they have access to all the other Imperial factions and can take Assassins. I suspect they beat Tyranids because they can easily screen the first turn assault and they can lay down just a ridiculous amount of fire on the big monsters.
My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially. Tanks are now more susceptible to anti-tank guns like MLs and lascannons. Their firepower has been toned down quite a bit. And now you don't get the advantage of cover 9 times out of 10.
And I'm not sure, but I think that you might actually be able to put fewer models on the field at the 2000 points level.
I have significant doubts that an IG list would have an even chance against a tyrranids list.
2017/06/06 23:54:51
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
That's a problem because the obvious counter to tyrranids is supposed to be shooting. But they are too fast for the shooting to matter.
And once they get into close combat, good night. It's over.
Everyone can get across the table T1, especially you can now DS from T1 and charge from DS
Tyranids 'speed' isn't that much faster then other races.. pretty sure on average the Eldar are faster with the Majoritty of Craft World having a 7" move and a lot of Dark Eldar having 8"
Maybe you should have a proper read of all the races before jumping to conclusions about Tyranids
2017/06/06 23:56:22
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/06/06 23:56:42
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
I've seen marine books and chaos mostly.
Seems characters got dialed up. New wound mechanic, rules plus general buffs mean the two classics have some pretty potant HQ options.
Used right with right synergy, some could be pretty deveststing when let used for intended purpose.
Emparoes champion for example is a character killing blender.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/06/06 23:58:28
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
That's a problem because the obvious counter to tyrranids is supposed to be shooting. But they are too fast for the shooting to matter.
And once they get into close combat, good night. It's over.
Everyone can get across the table T1, especially you can now DS from T1 and charge from DS
Tyranids 'speed' isn't that much faster then other races.. pretty sure on average the Eldar are faster with the Majoritty of Craft World having a 7" move and a lot of Dark Eldar having 8"
Maybe you should have a proper read of all the races before jumping to conclusions about Tyranids
Tyrranids actually have the capacity to be even faster because of the Swarm Lord. Deepstrike unit. Activate swarmlord to confer an extra movement. And boom. You can charge whatever you want with virtually zero chance of failure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jhe90 wrote:Seems characters got dialed up.
Captains and chapter masters got significant buffs. The fact that their AoE's self-apply is a huge bonus.
Chaplains are underwhelming, as before, but at least they're cheaper!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/07 00:04:47
2017/06/07 00:05:34
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Tyrranids actually have the capacity to be even faster because of the Swarm Lord. Deepstrike unit. Activate swarmlord to confer an extra movement. And boom. You can charge whatever you want with virtually zero chance of failure.
So your entire basis for Tyranids being too fast is on a single 300pt character and his ability to buff 1 unit a turn.. so that unit can pull off 1 charge 'guaranteed' (based on your opponents ability to deploy, as he can only buff a unit within 6") first turn..
In a game where you are no longer 'locked' into combat
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/07 00:07:08
2017/06/07 00:16:07
Subject: Re:8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
My impression of IG so far is that they've been toned down substantially. Tanks are now more susceptible to anti-tank guns like MLs and lascannons. Their firepower has been toned down quite a bit. And now you don't get the advantage of cover 9 times out of 10.
And I'm not sure, but I think that you might actually be able to put fewer models on the field at the 2000 points level.
I have significant doubts that an IG list would have an even chance against a tyrranids list.
Things have changed, yeah. I wouldn't expect to see tanks. A Taurox Prime is 98 points and if it can sit and let the Tyranids come to it it expects to kill 13 gaunts or 8 genestealers in a single volley. A Scion plasma squad and Tempestor Prime are something like 165 points and they can appear anywhere and take something like 5 wounds off of a T6 or T7 3+ monster. If you can't deal with the squad very quickly it'll do it again next turn even if you tie it up in combat. I already mentioned Conscripts which seem fantastic as a screener and entirely prevent a first turn charge, pretty much. Culexus and Eversor Assassins can hold their own against pretty much anything for cost, and the Culexus gets even better around psyker Tyranids. A mortar heavy weapon squad is 27 points and expects to land 5.25 bolter hits on anything it wants inside 48" every turn. You would need double that many points in Marines to have the same effect inside rapid fire range.
I don't know. I haven't played against a list that just takes a lot of IG good stuff. But I'm having an extremely hard time even trying to tailor something that clearly beats it. Probably just tons of very big things and almost no small things. I can at least see how you go about answering the scary stuff Tyranids have now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 00:22:04
2017/06/07 00:17:17
Subject: Re:8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
BrianDavion wrote: yeah one thing worth noting, seriously, is that Imperial armies are really going to be a lot more varied now,
I doubt it, it'll still mostly be Marines. But at least Guard and Sisters are going to be considerably less weak than they were before-- though I still doubt either will be anywhere close to top tier. As for Inquisition... eh... it's Inquisition. It never really was an "army", but they'll probably make decent editions along with the various freakshow units across the Imperial lists, or in addition to stormtroopers from the IG list.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/07 00:21:47
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/06/07 00:21:40
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Screening units are a thing now. If your opponent catches something valuable in a first turn assault, you screwed up your deployment or your army creation.
niv-mizzet wrote: Screening units are a thing now. If your opponent catches something valuable in a first turn assault, you screwed up your deployment or your army creation.
That's true.
What are your impressions thus far?
2017/06/07 00:26:27
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Dakka Wolf wrote: I'm looking forwards to Nids being turbo killing machines.
Different meta sounds fun.
That's pretty much what they are. The little bugs are super fast and are cheap enough to swarm the opponent and catch units in close combat early. And the big bugs are unstoppable forces of death, destruction and mayhem.
One thing that I like about 8th is that the armies basically feel about right.
Marines feel like marines.
Anti-tank guns feel like anti-tank guns.
IG feel like IG.
I am really liking what I am seeing of 8th.
I just fear that tyrranids might be a little too good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 00:31:09
2017/06/07 00:35:26
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
So far it seems the non codex marines lost way more than they gained (DA/BA/SW). Guard look ok, less based on the Russ though. Nids and orks look solid. Tau I'm not sure of given the large suit nerfs. Eldar are supposed to be kinda bad. Harlequins are supposed to be monsters.
2017/06/07 00:38:50
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Noise marines are great, they seem to be better than plague marines as versatile ranged+melee troops and manage to outshoot rubrics through sheer quantity of fire (with sonic blasters of course). Not as tough as either of those, but their unique ability patches that nicely (they get a free shot with their gun when killed).
DG are... not amazing.
Spoiler:
Plague marines are fine overall, but I fell they are a bit expensive currently. The toughness boost honestly lost a lot of mileage now that str 3 will still wound on a 5+, arguably rubrics are tougher and shootier out of the box (the sorcerer tax is what hurt rubrics tbh). The special weapons are nice but increase the cost even more. Blight Launchers are great and one of the few ways the unit might actually kill enough to justify its cost. They also aren't that good in melee now, losing bolt pistols hurt and plague knives are decidedly mediocre. They just seem a bit expensive for what they offer.
The bloat drone is one of the most worthless units in the game. It's a slower immolator without transport capacity, with a bad melee attack and %+ fnp. For 55 points more, meaning three immolators for the same price as two bloat drones. It's a hilariously useless unit, that's overcosted by an absurd degree. It's more durable, but not that much more durable. It can handle being caught in melee a bit better as it gets the free disengage for flying. so there is that. Honestly though, it's a stand alone unit that can barely do it's own job better thana dedicated transport goes it, at 2/3rd the point cost mind you. It's a joke unit that should be treated with the contempt once reserved for the now potentially useful pyrovore (who can also do the same thing but better thanks to tyrannocytes. If you could save 30 points by not buying the utterly worthless melee weapon it might be worth taking, so if the actual kit comes with options not present in the starter set/index it could be decent, but for now laughable.
Poxwalkers are not my favorite, but the at least fill a role. Slower slightly more expensive cultists without guns, but far tougher, fearless and about as good in melee. Blightbringer is a way to increase the speed of a footslogging army, marginally. Good with the above poxwalkers and footslogging plague marines (particularly with assault weapons). Typhus also helps poxwalkers, so grab him, a blight bringer, a few units of max size poxwalkers and march up the field, zombie horde style.
The new Lord isn't bad, but typhus is better points wise (I'm thinking some of the monoload units from the starter set accidentally had their gear's point costs included, as that'd go a long way towards explaining this and the bloat drone's cost). The new psyker is actually pretty decent, thanks to DR being able to block mortal wounds.
In short, plague marines are okay but a bit expensive while the new blight launcher is one of the better special weapons this edition. It also costs a single point more than a plasma gun, being relatively cheap for the amount of damage it can do. Poxwalkers are good and get a lot of synergy, all the new IC are pretty good, even the lord though he is a bit expensive. The bloat drone is hilariously, mind numbingly awful and should be treated with the utmost contempt. Nothing about it justifies its point cost.
So... yeah. Nothing amazing, the only real stand out are the poxwalkers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 01:38:12
2017/06/07 01:40:35
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Tyrranids actually have the capacity to be even faster because of the Swarm Lord. Deepstrike unit. Activate swarmlord to confer an extra movement. And boom. You can charge whatever you want with virtually zero chance of failure.
So your entire basis for Tyranids being too fast is on a single 300pt character and his ability to buff 1 unit a turn.. so that unit can pull off 1 charge 'guaranteed' (based on your opponents ability to deploy, as he can only buff a unit within 6") first turn..
In a game where you are no longer 'locked' into combat
Worth mentioning that Chaos Marines can do the same thing with a Jump Pack/Terminator Sorcerer and any of their deep strike units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 01:41:40
2017/06/07 01:40:43
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
SilverAlien wrote:Noise marines are great, they seem to be better than plague marines as versatile ranged+melee troops and manage to outshoot rubrics through sheer quantity of fire (with sonic blasters of course). Not as tough as either of those, but their unique ability patches that nicely (they get a free shot with their gun when killed).
I was impressed by Noise Marines. It seems like GW did a really good job of making them good and flavorful, but not OP.
DG are... not amazing.
Good to know. I have an associate who plays DG.
2017/06/07 01:55:56
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
SilverAlien wrote:Noise marines are great, they seem to be better than plague marines as versatile ranged+melee troops and manage to outshoot rubrics through sheer quantity of fire (with sonic blasters of course). Not as tough as either of those, but their unique ability patches that nicely (they get a free shot with their gun when killed).
I was impressed by Noise Marines. It seems like GW did a really good job of making them good and flavorful, but not OP.
DG are... not amazing.
Good to know. I have an associate who plays DG.
Noise marines are arguably the best infantry for their points in the game currently. Sonic blasters are just amazing for their price, noise marines are still nasty in close combat. With sonic blaster, they put out the same/more damage than a primaris marine will, more if the enemy is in cover/not in RF range. They can also grab special/heavy weapons unlike primaris, combining the strong infantry shooting with anti tank options as well. They aren't as tough they still have that nifty shooting attack on death rule to get more mileage out of every model. They are far better than chosen tbh, being cheaper to start with despite the same basic statline and better options.
2017/06/07 02:21:56
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
SilverAlien wrote:Noise marines are arguably the best infantry for their points in the game currently.
I'm unwilling to go that far.
Noise marines are still 16 ppm base, 20 with the sonic blasters. Blast masters and doom sirens are good, but also very expensive.
That's what I mean by flavorful and good, but still more or less balanced.
Noise marines with sonic blasters vs. sternguard with special issue boltguns is a pretty close call, imho.
Sonic blasters are just amazing for their price
They don't have a rend value. I think that sonic blasters are good, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them "amazing."
At the end of the day, it's 3 S4 shots with no rend value.
You forget, ignores cover is often going to amount to a -1 rend Also, they tend to win over sternguard everywhere but rapid fire range with no cover, and the noise marines don't make it into close combat (where they would again have the upper hand). Even in rapid fire range they don't lose badly, close enough both squads may be wiped due to the noise marine ability.. Don't forget the blastmaster is a buffed missile launcher that also ignores cover and has an assault more for a measly three points over a normal missile launcher, so fully equipped squads actually shifts things slightly further in the noise marine's favor..
it's not like they stomp the sternguard into the ground (you still lose 60%-80% of the squad). But it is a slight and notable advantage. A squad of 5 with 4 sonic blasters and a blastmaster is pretty consistently coming out atm. If I find something better I'll use them as the bench mark though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/07 03:11:31
2017/06/07 03:09:23
Subject: Re:8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Actually, with how difficult is to had cover in 8th, unless you are playing in a table with a good amount of cover and terrain (Like mine ) the "Ignore cover" rules aren't that important as 7th edition.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/06/07 03:30:56
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
I'm betting that army tiers are going to be really hard to pin down, because comp matters much more. If I bring a monolith to your lascannon party it's going to be a bad day for the monolith regardless of the monolith being a very solid unit. With everything having a counter and every army having access to every counter, comp trumps faction.
Certain factions may be better or worse at certain comps, and that will make certain factions better against other factions. However we won't have a 7th ed apex predator style list where it can reasonably expect to beat any army it comes across.
Where I do expect their to be tiers is for certain functions, EG: devastators are trash tier at vehicle removal. That just a made up example though, I have no idea how any of the vehicle removal units compare to each other, yet. I expect role based tier lists to gel much earlier than army based tier lists.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
2017/06/07 04:18:37
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Grimgold wrote: Where I do expect their to be tiers is for certain functions, EG: devastators are trash tier at vehicle removal. That just a made up example though, I have no idea how any of the vehicle removal units compare to each other, yet. I expect role based tier lists to gel much earlier than army based tier lists.
Infantry are the most cost effective way to get heavy weapons onto the field, but also the easiest to remove from the field. If I had to guess, mid range vehicles that can take numerous guns will be the general preference for heavy weaponry.
Of course that's me assuming lascannons and other heavy weapons are the best way to remove vehicles.
20000+ points
) the "Ignore cover" rules aren't that important as 7th edition.
