Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

"X counters IG so you can't use it because it invalidates my argument."

 Wolfblade wrote:
It's weird if I were so OP that they never placed all too well in tournaments.

I already addressed this early. This is a logical fallacy.

"It's not as x as y. Therefore, it's not x"?

People take the most broken things they can come up with to tournaments. The fact that IG don't fare well against the most broken things in 7th doesn't in and of itself indicate that they are balanced against the vast majority of unit selections in the game.

Also, I vehicles were overpriced, as was their infantry.

Relative to what?

It takes on average 18 Las gun shots to kill one marine. Yeah, SUPER OP.

Who takes an army of nothing but guardsmen wielding lasguns?

No. Chances are, you are taking those guardsmen to unlock a ton of heavy and special weapons.

And if you look at a group of guardsmen, or even a group of veterans, merely as an opportunity cost, they're not a bad deal.

 Traditio wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Guard got gakked on by tacs and devs in rhinos, idk what you're talking about. 8-10 grav cannons reduced mech guard lists to ash before the guard player got through half the rhinos.

This is not a real answers. Grav cannons are commonly recognized to be one of the most OP things of 7th edition.

Tacticals, devastators and assault marines in rhinos generally are not beating IG lists without grav.

That's idiotic. 'Oh ya, stormsurges are pretty strong but they'd never beat orks without guns or stomps.'

Whether or not they could beat guard without grav is utterly irrelevant because THEY HAVE GRAV! Grav is a thing they have, and they can use it.

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Why did we need a nerf, again?

May I point out that Gladius, Riptidewing, Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Wraithknights are a thing, and that the Optimized Stealth Cadre hard-counters our entire army? May I point out that our AT tanks have a worse gun than the Tideline Rig and aren't indestructible, move at the same speed, and are more expensive? May I point out that, of all the overpowered Monstrous Creatures that infest this game, and of all the hideous deathstars, none of them are ours? May I point out that, of the selections of Lord of War, ours, the most iconic superheavy series in the game, is almost unplayable competitively? May I point out that the only D-Weapon we can take is on a 500 point Shadowsword?

So please, tell me what we did to deserve a nerf.

This is such a logical fallacy.

"X isn't as bad as Y. Therefore, X is not bad."

No, 7th IG didn't have the same level of OP stuff as other codices.

However, IG did have access cheap, spammable AV, some of which is virtually immune to most shooting in the game, and much of which puts out a ridiculous number of shots.

IG still has that in 8th. But at least in 8th, marines get better cover against it, you are hitting on 4s (and not relying on rerolling blast masters), and you're likely wounding on 3s, not 2s, Not to mention that that 20 shot gun you have is only ever going to deal wounds to one squad. Not several.

In addition to that, IG had ridiculously cheap infantry and extremely spammable heavy and special weapons.

No, it didn''t matter that you were hitting on 4s. The sheer numbers were on your side.

When you take both of those things together, the result is obvious.

No, IG weren't as OP as wraithknights and scatter bikes.

But how imagine how the standard IG lists would fare against assault marines, devastators, tactical marines and rhinos.

In my view, IG are still OP in 8th.

In fact, they're overall much stronger since so many other things got nerfed.

But compared to assault marines, devastators and tactical marines in rhinos, they got nerfed. Hard.

And they needed to be.

I think that people will come to agree with me when I say now that IG needs further nerfs (manticores need a thorough beating with the nerf bat in particular), and likely will be nerfed harder.

But already, have no doubt about it, they have been nerfed substantially.

UHHH.... Huh...

I don't know what to say. The Leman Russ is a pile of crap, and it's going to be even more of a pile of crap in 8e. Have you been trying to lose? Seriously.

And with regards to how standard IG lists fare to standard marine ones: TERRIBLY. SERIOUSLY.

Grav guns make our armor meaninless beyond meaningless. Drop-pods rain from the skies filled with meltaguns! The Vindicator Linebreaker Squadron rolls up and carpets a 10" diameter section of our line in A10, AP2, Ignores Cover and all our guys turn into a bloody mist [and half our artillery caught in that blast too!] Rhinos and Razorbacks roll across the field by the score, which were ALL FREE. If you're not intentionally trying to lose, we won't have enough guns to kill you.

Dakka Wolf wrote:I'm not so sure. Every army copped a beating with the Nerf Hammer at the start of the edition

Every codex received a massive beating with the nerf hammer, not every army.

My main army actually experienced massive buffs.

My missile launchers are now essentially strength D weapons.

My marines are 2+ in cover.

My rhinos can thoroughly ruin your day if you don't have the fly special rule (or equivalent).

Pedro Kantor now is virtually incapable of missing, and not only that, but he's no longer punching people at I1.

My captain ensures that my missile launchers are much more accurate.

And my sternguard can consistently kill terminators.

My army got buffed massively from trash tier to probably somewhere in the mid tier range.

 Traditio wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
It's weird if I were so OP that they never placed all too well in tournaments.

I already addressed this early. This is a logical fallacy.

"It's not as x as y. Therefore, it's not x"?

People take the most broken things they can come up with to tournaments. The fact that IG don't fare well against the most broken things in 7th doesn't in and of itself indicate that they are balanced against the vast majority of unit selections in the game.

Also, I vehicles were overpriced, as was their infantry.

Relative to what?

It takes on average 18 Las gun shots to kill one marine. Yeah, SUPER OP.

Who takes an army of nothing but guardsmen wielding lasguns?

No. Chances are, you are taking those guardsmen to unlock a ton of heavy and special weapons.

And if you look at a group of guardsmen, or even a group of veterans, merely as an opportunity cost, they're not a bad deal.

It doesn't take long reading your posts to realize that there's no way you're good enough at the game for your opinions on what is and is not good to hold water.

Also, Mr. Space Marine Rhinos player, you have to gall to complain about me spamming Vehicles?

Are you kidding me, seriously? I pay 160 points for each tank and 65 points for each transport. How many points does it cost you to bring a transport for tactical squads 1-10? THAT'S RIGHT, 0. ZERO! At most, you pay the points to glue a twin linked Lascannon on top of the 12 tanks YOU GOT FOR FREE.

My army is supposed to have tanks. We're supposed to have lots of them, and they're supposed to be good because nothing else is. Except the Leman Russ is so laughably bad.

You know what also pisses me off? When I bring 3 tanks, you know what I got out of it? 3 TANKS! YAY! They all have to shoot the same target too! You know what happens if you bring 3 tanks, each of which is cheaper than my equivalent one? They all get a buff.

Let me spell this out for you: A Leman Russ Demolisher is flat-out 165. A Vindicator is 125. They're both pretty much equally survivable, though the Leman Russ has much better side armor. Except, when you bring 3 Vindicators, you get to combine them into a 10", Str.10, AP2, Ignores Cover blast. And they can still split their fire, or concentrate fire normally for 3 5" blasts. You know what my Demolishers get? NOTHING.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I don't know what to say. The Leman Russ is a pile of crap

The Leeman Russ is virtually immune to most shooting if you don't specifically load your list with things that can consistently hurt AV 14.

I can now slaughter them with krak missiles.

This is a good thing.

And with regards to how standard IG lists fare to standard marine ones:

Except, that's not what I asked. I'm not asking about the "standard marine ones." I'm specifically asking about assault marines, devastator marines and tactical marines in rhinos without grav.

Again, the fact that there are OP options in the SM codex doesn't make standard IG lists not OP.

Necrons dont look as strong as in the 7th ed.
Still not a bad army but I guess they will be mid tier at most.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Mr. Space Marine Rhinos player, you have to gall to complain about me spamming Vehicles?

Are you kidding me, seriously? I pay 160 points for each tank and 65 points for each transport. How many points does it cost you to bring a transport for tactical squads 1-10? THAT'S RIGHT, 0. ZERO! At most, you pay the points to glue a twin linked Lascannon on top of the 12 tanks YOU GOT FOR FREE.

I agree. The 7th edition gladius was OP. It needed to die.

But that still doesn't make standard 7th edition IG lists not OP relative to the non-OP army selections of the game.

I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.

That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.

 Traditio wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Also, Mr. Space Marine Rhinos player, you have to gall to complain about me spamming Vehicles?

Are you kidding me, seriously? I pay 160 points for each tank and 65 points for each transport. How many points does it cost you to bring a transport for tactical squads 1-10? THAT'S RIGHT, 0. ZERO! At most, you pay the points to glue a twin linked Lascannon on top of the 12 tanks YOU GOT FOR FREE.

I agree. The 7th edition gladius was OP. It needed to die.

But that still doesn't make standard 7th edition IG lists not OP relative to the non-OP army selections of the game.

Really? Really?

Are you ******* ******* me?

Yeah, if you brought nothing but boltguns on footslogging tactical marines all lined up B2B across your field, then sure we're OP, because you're TRYING TO LOSE. If you brought a meltagun or a grav gun, you safely ignore our armor. If you're worried about making it to my line, lookee, you get a nice little box for 35 points! You can get a box with a gun for 75 points! You can get a deep-striking box, that can drop right next to our artillery and never mishap and deliver a meltaguns squad right there for a pittance! I Pay 65 points for each transport.

Do you realize how hard it is to kill your little metal boxes? Do you? Put your grav guns in your little metal boxes and roll around and shoot my tanks to death, there's nothing I can do. Your cute little 11/11/10 box, the worst of your metal box collection, costs less than half the price of the unit I need to have any chance of killing it, assuming you actually paid for it at all.

Here's my current favorite list:
INQ
Coteaz

CAD
CCS
Platoon, 5x Infantry w/ Plasma & Lascannon
Lascannon weapons team
Missile weapons team
Vets, Meltaguns
Shadowsword
ADL

Emperor's Wrath
CCS+Chimera
Basilisk
Manticore
Wyvern

ABG
TC Vanq + BH Shells + Lascannon
LRBT + Lascannon

You are free to judge your rhino-rush against it.

 Traditio wrote:
But that still doesn't make standard 7th edition IG lists not OP relative to the non-OP army selections of the game.

Only because your definition of non-OP is "the exact list that Traditio is currently playing", and everything else is OP. IG were indisputably a lower-tier army in 7th, and the only way to consider them OP is to ignore half the game and only consider IG relative to the weakest lists you can build.

Peregrine wrote:Only because your definition of non-OP is "the exact list that Traditio is currently playing", and everything else is OP. IG were indisputably a lower-tier army in 7th, and the only way to consider them OP is to ignore half the game and only consider IG relative to the weakest lists you can build.

How is 7th edition IG vs. trukk spam?

How about against Khorne Berserkers?

What about against noise marines?

How are IG against tyrranids list that don't include one or more flyrants?

How about against DE lists that don't spam raiders?

Again, if your point of reference is "the best lists that can be brought in the current meta," then IG are not OP.

But if you consider all of the army selections that are actually available, IG are overwhelmingly strong against non-competitive lists.

 Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:Only because your definition of non-OP is "the exact list that Traditio is currently playing", and everything else is OP. IG were indisputably a lower-tier army in 7th, and the only way to consider them OP is to ignore half the game and only consider IG relative to the weakest lists you can build.

How is 7th edition IG vs. trukk spam?

How about against Khorne Berserkers?

What about against noise marines?

How are IG against tyrranids list that don't include one or more flyrants or use the invisibility psychic power?

How about against DE lists that don't spam raiders?

Again, if your point of reference are "the best lists that can be brought in the current meta," then IG are not OP.

But if you consider all of the army selections that are actually available, IG are overwhelmingly strong against non-competitive lists.

Vs. Trukks, I win. Orks are the only army worse than us. He made it to my lines, then choked and I rallied and pushed him back.

Vs. Khorne, I get massacred terribly. Seen that. It leaves nothing but a trail of wrecked tanks behind, and they're our tanks.

Vs. Noise Marines, I've never tried it.

Vs. Tyranids, I lose. Been there, played it at least 50 times. I can't kill MC's for my life. Drop Carnifexes in Tyrannocytes. There's a reason I have that big block of Lascannons with Coteaz in my "good" list.

Vs. DE, Seen that too. Ends badly for the Guard.

If I bring my best list, the list I worked on since the edition started and revised to meet all comers in competitive play, and you bring your worst one, sure, I'm going to win most of the time. And if I bring my medicore list against yours, I die horribly.

Here's my non-competitive list:
ABG
TC Vanq + BH + Las
TC Vanq + BH + Las
LRBT + Las
LR Demolisher
Shadowsword

Emperor's Wrath
CCS+Chimera
Basilisk
Wyvern
Manticore

It's great for losing games, actually, but it's damn fun to play. You're free to find a guard player where you live and convince him to run it, then play against it. If you can't see at least 3 ways to obliterate it with a standard SM list, no Gladius required, I can't help you.

So seriously, our competitive lists is only a little better than your crappy list.


Also worth mention:
My Guard list versus my Sisters list results in my Sisters winning almost every time. They're better equipped to deal with literally every single threat that I see regularly than my Guardsmen. Every threat except Knights, actually, but that's besides the point. Are the Sisters of Battle OP?

 Traditio wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
It's weird if I were so OP that they never placed all too well in tournaments.

I already addressed this early. This is a logical fallacy.

"It's not as x as y. Therefore, it's not x"?

People take the most broken things they can come up with to tournaments. The fact that IG don't fare well against the most broken things in 7th doesn't in and of itself indicate that they are balanced against the vast majority of unit selections in the game.

Also, I vehicles were overpriced, as was their infantry.

Relative to what?

It takes on average 18 Las gun shots to kill one marine. Yeah, SUPER OP.

Who takes an army of nothing but guardsmen wielding lasguns?

No. Chances are, you are taking those guardsmen to unlock a ton of heavy and special weapons.

And if you look at a group of guardsmen, or even a group of veterans, merely as an opportunity cost, they're not a bad deal.

1. It's not a matter of IG being less OP than marines/eldar/etc, it's a matter of IG being underpowered. Their tanks are weak and overpriced. The stock LR can't fire anything but snapshots if it fires it's main gun, and if it gets stunned/shaken it can't fire any blasts/templates anyways. Combined with only 3HP, a large profile and being slow means they die very quickly (I. E. Drop melta, 6 sternguard with combi meltas will deal enough to put it down fairly easy).

2. Infantry? T3, 5+ with LD8 won't stick around long. They either run off, or simply get vaporized by even basic weapons.

3. Who takes an army of marines with only a couple MLs (with flakk), a melta gun or two, and flamers? And you mean the special/heavy weapons on the T3 5+ who can't survive if they aren't stuck in cover? Or the (mostly) overpriced heavy weapons?

4. Vets are OK, but again T3 5+ before upgrades, costing 60pt. That's pretty expensive considering 5 marines are 65pt.

 Traditio wrote:
But if you consider all of the army selections that are actually available, IG are overwhelmingly strong against non-competitive lists.

Only because "all of the army selections that are actually available" consists of things like bringing a naked 5-man tactical squad (and nothing else) to a 50,000 point Apocalypse game. All you're doing is proving that if you cut out enough stuff you can find a "rest of the game" that loses to IG. But that doesn't make IG anywhere near a good army.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Necrons dont look as strong as in the 7th ed.
Still not a bad army but I guess they will be mid tier at most.

Not sure about that. They have lost some of the Decurion synergy buffs but a lot of other stuff is looking strong.

RPs now work every turn as long as the unit is still alive. This means that you can still be rolling to reanimate guys several turns later as long as one of their buddies is still alive. Warriors can now wound anything in the game and have -1AP to boot. Large blobs of Warriors with Crypteks form a very solid core.

Necron vehicles are looking good too as they have a pile of hitpoints to keep living metal ticking over. Also the Quuantum Armour no longer pops like a bubble after the first hit. Destroyers are still good and any heavy destroyers embedded in units can split fire.

The trick is to stop your enemy focussing fire and wiping out 1-2 units each turn so that they cannot repair/reanimate. This is where our fast units come in handy. Wraiths are not as scary as they were but they are still great for tying up enemy units. I think Necrons will play a little differently but are still looking strong.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
But if you consider all of the army selections that are actually available, IG are overwhelmingly strong against non-competitive lists.

Only because "all of the army selections that are actually available" consists of things like bringing a naked 5-man tactical squad (and nothing else) to a 50,000 point Apocalypse game. All you're doing is proving that if you cut out enough stuff you can find a "rest of the game" that loses to IG. But that doesn't make IG anywhere near a good army.

There's a wide gulf between "conforming to the meta" and "taking only a single infantry squad without upgrades in a 50,000 point game."

Again, yes, IG are at a disadvantage to 7th edition lists that "conform to the meta."

However, there are many lists (which, for the sake of argument, have an HQ, troops, fast attacks, elites, heavy supports and various upgrades, total up to the agreed upon points limit, are drawn from a single faction, etc.) which standard IG lists would steam roll.

In fact, if you compare the number of meta-conforming lists against which IG would lose to the number of non-meta conforming, but still "reasonable" lists against which IG would win, the number against which standard "competitive" IG lists would win is greater.

 Karhedron wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Necrons dont look as strong as in the 7th ed.
Still not a bad army but I guess they will be mid tier at most.

Not sure about that. They have lost some of the Decurion synergy buffs but a lot of other stuff is looking strong.

RPs now work every turn as long as the unit is still alive. This means that you can still be rolling to reanimate guys several turns later as long as one of their buddies is still alive. Warriors can now wound anything in the game and have -1AP to boot. Large blobs of Warriors with Crypteks form a very solid core.

Necron vehicles are looking good too as they have a pile of hitpoints to keep living metal ticking over. Also the Quuantum Armour no longer pops like a bubble after the first hit. Destroyers are still good and any heavy destroyers embedded in units can split fire.

The trick is to stop your enemy focussing fire and wiping out 1-2 units each turn so that they cannot repair/reanimate. This is where our fast units come in handy. Wraiths are not as scary as they were but they are still great for tying up enemy units. I think Necrons will play a little differently but are still looking strong.

Good observations.
We'll have to wait and see how other armies fare. It has been said that most of the armies got nerved or toned down.
Genestealer Cult and Nids may be the exceptions.

Now you're just being dishonest, comparing "competitive" IG lists to poorly-optimized lists from other codices. Compare like to like and IG were clearly lower-tier.

Wolfblade wrote:1. It's not a matter of IG being less OP than marines/eldar/etc, it's a matter of IG being underpowered. Their tanks are weak and overpriced. The stock LR can't fire anything but snapshots if it fires it's main gun, and if it gets stunned/shaken it can't fire any blasts/templates anyways. Combined with only 3HP, a large profile and being slow means they die very quickly (I. E. Drop melta, 6 sternguard with combi meltas will deal enough to put it down fairly easy).

All of what you are saying is perfectly meaningless without a point of reference.

Their tanks are overpriced relative to what? You mention the limitations of LRs, but why does that make them either overcosted or underpowered? Relative to what?

Furthermore, you understand what you are actually saying with the last bit of what you just said, right?

What you are saying is:

"If you take scissors, you'll beat paper. Every single time."

The fact that scissors beats paper doesn't make paper bad.

2. Infantry? T3, 5+ with LD8 won't stick around long. They either run off, or simply get vaporized by even basic weapons.

They're not supposed to stick around long. That's why they only cost 5 ppm in 7th edition. Again, the reason you take them is: 1. to unlock special/heavy weapons, 2. to hold objectives and 3. to screen the rest of your stuff/deny space to the opponent.

Viewed in that light, basic guardsmen are pretty effective.

They're even MORE effective in 8th edition in those regards.

3. Who takes an army of marines with only a couple MLs (with flakk), a melta gun or two, and flamers? And you mean the special/heavy weapons on the T3 5+ who can't survive if they aren't stuck in cover? Or the (mostly) overpriced heavy weapons?

Why would you put a heavy weapons team outside of cover? And why would you NOT put a special weapons team in a dedicated transport?

4. Vets are OK, but again T3 5+ before upgrades, costing 60pt. That's pretty expensive considering 5 marines are 65pt.

No, they're not "pretty expensive considering that 5 marines are 65 pt."

You're simply viewing the matter from the wrong perspective.

What you are paying for when you pay that x number of points for the tactical squad is a delivery system for a SINGLE heavy or special weapon.

What you are paying for when you pay that x number of points for vets is a delivery system for THREE special weapons that you can stick in a dedicated transport.

Point for point, the vets are more cost efficient for what they do.

Again, that's part of what makes IG OP in my view.

"Elite" equivalents like tactical marines, etc. can't compete with that level of points efficiency.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Now you're just being dishonest, comparing "competitive" IG lists to poorly-optimized lists from other codices. Compare like to like and IG were clearly lower-tier.

To be fair, it's specifically the competitive IG builds that I think needed nerfing (and still need nerfs in 8th; the manticore in particular comes to mind).

Obviously, many things in the 7th ed. IG codex are either fine or needed a buff.

"Their tanks are overpriced relative to what? You mention the limitations of LRs, but why does that make them either overcosted or underpowered? Relative to what?"

The Stock Leman Russ is 150 points, for a single 72" Large Blast S8 AP3 Gun and a Heavy Bolter. Oh, and that big gun also is Ordnance, so the HB is worthless 90% of the time. It only gets worse when you go to specialty tanks such as the Vanquisher, with its single shot gun hitting on a 4+ and most of its damage capacity requiring that roll to succeed. The Demolisher pays the points for its gun, which, funnily enough, is 24" S10 AP2 Large Blast Ordnance, so still not doing anything with auxiliary weapons. The only good Russ objectively is the Eradicator and that's because its gun actually allows the Russ to take sponsons that work within its desired target envelop, unlike the Vanquisher which is stuck with Multi Meltas.


"They're not supposed to stick around long. That's why they only cost 5 ppm in 7th edition. Again, the reason you take them is: 1. to unlock special/heavy weapons, 2. to hold objectives and 3. to screen the rest of your stuff/deny space to the opponent.
Viewed in that light, basic guardsmen are pretty effective."

But they aren't. A basic infantry squad is 50 points, with an autocannon, you're looking at 60. Congratulations, you've spent 60 points to sit there and plink away at light armor and maybe get lucky. How rare do I have the pleasure of not doing anything with my basic infantry!

"Why would you put a heavy weapons team outside of cover? And why would you NOT put a special weapons team in a dedicated transport?"

SWS can not purchase a dedicated transport, and HWS are only three men with Ld7, even if they are two wound models. Force morale, and on average, they're going to break quite a bit without morale support, which costs more points on top of that. A three lascannon HWS also costs 105 points and will only ever have a 5+ save hitting on 4s

"You're simply viewing the matter from the wrong perspective.
What you are paying for when you pay that x number of points for the tactical squad is a delivery system for a SINGLE heavy or special weapon.
What you are paying for when you pay that x number of points for vets is a delivery system for THREE special weapons that you can stick in a dedicated transport.
Point for point, the vets are more cost efficient for what they do."

A Min tactical squad with meltagun is 75 points, 110 with a Rhino. An Infantry Squad with Meltagun in a Chimera is 125. A Veteran squad with three Meltaguns in a Chimera is 155. Oh, and the Infantry Squad requires taking a platoon, so you're mandated into a command squad and another infantry squad. Oh, and the Chimera is more vulnerable to the sides against, funnily enough, almost every faction in the game's basic infantry weapons. Turns out, boltguns can glance AV10 and corner to corner gives a wide side arc. Also, the delivery system comparison is moot, when a Tactical Squad at five men can take a Grav Cannon and rhino for 135 points and be drastically more efficient against all sorts of targets compared to a triple meltagun chimera.

""Elite" equivalents like tactical marines, etc. can't compete with that level of points efficiency."

Yes they can, because a five man tactical squad has a reliable chance of breaking a 10 man guard squad in a single round of shooting, or assault, or by just ignoring their lasgun shots or by killing the russ they've been forced to bubble wrap to keep the russ alive

Point of reference is obvious Traditio, it's vs similar units. Such as Fire prisims/falcons/doomsday arks/hammerheads/etc.

As for point efficiency that IG squad is 155 points (with 3 melta guns, 170 with plasma guns and no other upgrades) and a stock chimera, which by the way is an AV12/10/10 HP3 vehicle. Not exactly hard to cripple, then proceed to murder the the T3 5+ infantry inside.

And "marines, etc. can't compete with that level of points efficiency." Is that why marines are top tier and guard and lower mid tier? Marines can't compete if you only bring flamers, and MLs, true but most people bring more than that. As for competitive IG, they're about as effective as a wet noodle is at taking down a tiger. They don't score/hold objectives well, they don't wipe out vast parts of an army in an amazing alpha strike, and they're slow as feth, and everything is overpriced with a few exceptions I think (wyvern are pretty good).

 Traditio wrote:
To be fair, it's specifically the competitive IG builds that I think needed nerfing (and still need nerfs in 8th; the manticore in particular comes to mind).

Only if you apply a principle that every "competitive"* build, from every codex, needs to be nerfed, and that's an absurd thing to claim.

*Where by "competitive" you clearly mean "any army that can beat my 'tactical squads with missile launchers' army".

Holy Emperor are you people still arguing with Traditio over balance?

The guy doesn't even play the same game as us, leave him be...

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
To be fair, it's specifically the competitive IG builds that I think needed nerfing (and still need nerfs in 8th; the manticore in particular comes to mind).

Only if you apply a principle that every "competitive"* build, from every codex, needs to be nerfed, and that's an absurd thing to claim.

*Where by "competitive" you clearly mean "any army that can beat my 'tactical squads with missile launchers' army".

Have you seen the new manticore's stats?

I don't think that it's an overstatement to say that, in certain respects, as grav was to the SM army, so too is the manticore to the IG army.

GodDamUser wrote:

Frag Cannons are a Assault Weapon, You can Advance and still shoot a Assault Weapon at -1
You cannot charge though

But One thing for people to remember is that these Indexes are gap fillers until the armies get their own Codex.

We have all seen pic of the upcoming models for Death Guard and Primus Marines, So I would expect their Codex's to be released shortly (Death Guard really got the short end of the stick in the Index)

This is true, I expect Primaris and DG Codices before Christmas. However, we may have a loooong wait for other stuff. Just look at AoS, it has been 2 years since it dropped and there are many factions still without a Battle Tome. And even for some factions that have received Tomes, they may only cover part of a faction (Flesh Eater Courts). As one of the older armies with no sign of a revamp, I suspect BAs will be using the Index list for some time to come. Our best hope is that GW FAQ some of the more absurd points values like the Angelus.

The 7th ed Manticore? It's OK, but the 36" min range REALLY hurts it.

 Wolfblade wrote:
The 7th ed Manticore? It's OK, but the 36" min range REALLY hurts it.

You may want to check out the 8th edition manticores when you get the chance.

Imho, they are overpowered.