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Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.

The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.

 Traditio wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
The 7th ed Manticore? It's OK, but the 36" min range REALLY hurts it.

You may want to check out the 8th edition manticores when you get the chance.

Imho, they are overpowered.

not really, the guns on it are powerful sure, but it suffers from the same problems a LOT of guard heavy ordinance does, it now needs a direct hit, and as such their weapons are more likely to miss. witrh a 4+ BS a manticore has a 50% chance of missing any target. it fires at, and only has 4 of the missiles. sure it'll wipe out a tac squad right quick, and be pretty devestating on any army that can run a LARGE number of multi wound troops (about the ONLY unit in 40k I can think of that the Manticore would be "uniquely well suited to kill" would be a horde of 30 Boyz) but it's not THAT great. remember it can fire 1 missile a turn, and only has 4 shots. situationally it's good, but TBH I'd rather have a Wyvren.

I am pretty happy with crons, most things within reason seem to have a place in the army. Looking forward to a event or two with them.

A Long Fang costs fifteen points, plus another fifteen for his nearly useless bodyguard pack leader and twenty five points for his Missile Launcher - Wolf Scouts cost eleven points per model and come as a squad of five plus another twenty five points for a Missile Launcher and three points per model for camo cloaks.
A grand old total of a hundred and fifty points.

How much does an 8th edition Manticore cost?

133pts if I'm remember all the wargear correctly.

It's worth remembering it can only shoot 4 rockets in the course of a game, and only 1 per turn.

EDIT: I'm not saying it's bad by any means - in fact it's quite good - but I wouldn't say it's overpowered or anything.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
A Long Fang costs fifteen points, plus another fifteen for his nearly useless bodyguard pack leader and twenty five points for his Missile Launcher - Wolf Scouts cost eleven points per model and come as a squad of five plus another twenty five points for a Missile Launcher and three points per model for camo cloaks.
A grand old total of a hundred and fifty points.

How much does an 8th edition Manticore cost?

133 points.



for point of comparison a Storm Eagle Rocket deals heavy 2d6 S 10, AP -2, Damage: D3. (range 120 inches)

it's not bad at all but if I was fighting Tradio and his "missile tac squads in rhinos" list I'd prefer the cheaper Wyvren.

You never specified which, and we are talking about 7th IG

And it's not even that crazy. S10, AP-2 d3 damage and 2d6 shots per missile. Assuming to hit is a 4+ that's 3.5 hits. Not exactly fear inducing.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.

The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.

I agree. Outside of some things that just seem a bit weirdly costed, I think there's a lot of nuance to army build and playstyles that will take a few weeks to really hammer out.

For example, after a couple of games I realise that screening units seem very important now. Protecting your good shooting units from being charged gives a huge boost to their efficiency so it's often worth sacrificing 50-100 points to keep 150-200 points of guys at full effectiveness. They also allow your proper assault units to avoid being charged themselves. That's a tactic that wasn't quite so prevalent in 7th ed, mainly because the lethality of weapons in the previous edition meant your screening units tended to die very quickly. I'm not saying it's revolutionary or anything, but it's an example of how things have changed in the new edition.

Any army with cheap characters and infantry will probably be good in 8th. It's a bit more difficult to remove masses of infantry now that blasts and templates have gone and models get saves more often. Cheap characters allow armies to utilise the different force org charts and get more command points so I think we'll be seeing them quite often. There are some good, cheap buffing characters now too.

So three would be just shy of four hundred points, plus however much their little hidey buff boys cost.
With a hundred and fifty points I put down one and got a second down to a single wound, plus kept them firing into cover for four rounds before my Fangs and Scouts kicked the bucket.
This was in a game, not a vacuum and my other points were tied up elsewhere but if I'd invested smarter and purchased more Missile Launchers for another unit of Fangs or even another unit of Scouts, maybe shown some patience and waited for the results of the shootout rather than rushing across the field like an idiot I might have been charging towards an enemy under suppressing fire rather than being the target of it.
Manticores are nifty with their ability to shoot without Line of Sight but they're a far cry from an Over Powered unit.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.

That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.

It was not easy to beat IG in 5th. There were no easy exploitations vs good IG players. Not all dominant IG lists were leafblower. It was just a good codex.

IG worked fine vs BA in 7th. IG players saying otherwise are terrible at the game and shouldn't be listened to. Also, good IG lists in 7th didn't use Russes at all. Just as good BA lists didn't use ASM at all. Fluff means nothing in the crunch.

Breng77 wrote:


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 Karhedron wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Baal Preds are super good.

Or you could save yourself 42 points and take a Razorback with TLAC which only has 1 wound less, has a transport capacity for 6 models and is a dedicated transport rather than using up an HS slot.

Granted you lose the option to take sponsons but by the time you have added those, you are getting close to the price of 2 Razorbacks. Baals are definitely significantly overpriced IMHO.

You also need to buy a squad in order to take them, so they don't end up cheaper unless you already wanted that squad. They are also slower.

You don't need to buy a squad specifically to take a Razor. You can take one for every other choice in your army, it doesn't have to be a unit that can fit in it - you can take one for a HQ, a Dread, a Pred etc

Baals are also only really faster if you're taking the Flamestorm variant, you're likely not be advancing the AssCan one as you'll want to be firing the gun.

Baals are overpriced compared to the Razorbacks, and Razors not taking up a slot is a big bonus.

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.

That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.

It was not easy to beat IG in 5th. There were no easy exploitations vs good IG players. Not all dominant IG lists were leafblower. It was just a good codex.

IG worked fine vs BA in 7th. IG players saying otherwise are terrible at the game and shouldn't be listened to. Also, good IG lists in 7th didn't use Russes at all. Just as good BA lists didn't use ASM at all. Fluff means nothing in the crunch.

Space Wolves weren't/aren't overly fond of them either.
Laugh at that Strength 10 Ap1 large blast as you roll three 3s and it bounces off your Storm Shield but fear the fifty plus Lasgun shots that you'll be taking the same save against.

Traditio, you are f##### hilarious. And your beatings will continue.

When fluff and crunch don't align, or the game devolves into RAW versus RAI, or the nerfs destroy the whole purpose of fielding a unit in the first place, that's when the game falls apart for me.

Tyranids in 7th are the prime example of this. When they're described as an all-devouring swarm, I guess they don't mean in terms of the models fielded but in terms of how many Devourer shots are being fired by Hive Tyrants.

Or with 8th, it takes a lot of nerve for people to imply that Obliterators were overpowered in 7th. So why were they hit so hard with the nerfbat? Why was their "morph-a-gun" shtick replaced with an Orky Autocannon? Why force them to run in squads of 3 or remove their Fists? Sure, they can reliably Deepstrike and they can shoot while advancing, but if the same "tactics" for a Landspeeder are now the same for this slow hulking gun-brute, something went wrong.

The fact Traitor Legions is gone (it was only out since December), with no Legion rules is insulting. The fact you can now freely field Magnus (as a LOW, he is a detachment of one) alongside Death Guard is even more insulting for this edition too. Then you notice the detail in which Warhammer Community articles go into for armies (compare the detail that went into the Chaos Faction Focus vs Harlequins), to the bold-faced lies in other articles (seriously, I had to take a break from reading Frankie talk about Thousand Sons) and there's still obvious favoritism going on.

I think Chaos look like Saturday morning cartoon villians because their players have the exact same hissy fits.
"It's not fair! Why does everyone take the good guy's side? It's just a damn popularity contest!".

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I think Chaos look like Saturday morning cartoon villians because their players have the exact same hissy fits.
"It's not fair! Why does everyone take the good guy's side? It's just a damn popularity contest!".

HYDRA! RETREAT!!!!!!

Seriously though, this is the second time I've collected a Word Bearers army only for it to be rendered functionally unplayable. Fool me once GW, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Honestly, as a fellow Word Bearer player, I'd say 8th is much kinder overall to our style of play.

It's no longer 'spam Sorcerers & DPs in order to not be the worst Legion'.

Bloody unfluffy Sorcerer Spam... a true follower of the Dark Gods has a Dark Apostle and summons daemons with rituals!

Boiling Word Bearers down to 'lol summonz' was horrible. At least now other units that fit the army just as well if not better (in a spam sense) like Possessed and actual Chaos Space Marines are good (or at least decent) rather than complete trash (even if the lack of bolter/chainsword marines kind of stings a bit).

I'm fairly keen for this new edition, everything seems balanced enough so far. Finally I can have a match against an opponent and not feel guilty just for taking a certain army against an opponent playing with another certain army.

Perhaps the only thing that really stands out to me for IG is the 27pt mortar spam. That's some serious infantry killing power there for a pittance of points.

The lack of so many units in the Death Guard army is really disheartening, ill give it a couple weeks until the codex releases hopefully but until then not gonna play them much, get in my face orks

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Honestly, as a fellow Word Bearer player, I'd say 8th is much kinder overall to our style of play.

It's no longer 'spam Sorcerers & DPs in order to not be the worst Legion'.

Bloody unfluffy Sorcerer Spam... a true follower of the Dark Gods has a Dark Apostle and summons daemons with rituals!

Boiling Word Bearers down to 'lol summonz' was horrible. At least now other units that fit the army just as well if not better (in a spam sense) like Possessed and actual Chaos Space Marines are good (or at least decent) rather than complete trash (even if the lack of bolter/chainsword marines kind of stings a bit).

Lorgar *was* the fourth most powerful Psyker in the Imperium behind Malcador, Magnus and the Big E.

You didn't need to spam Sorcerers. You really only needed *one* on a Palanquin (perfect warshrine), maybe two tops. Word Bearers were horrible for a CAD but the Grand Host made them quite workable and their Warlord Table was actually rather handy. Massed Obsec wins games, and army-wide Crusader gets you places faster (I could almost always guarantee perfect running for my Spawn).

By contrast, Cultists have a point hike with nothing to show for it (by contrast, Guard went from 5 to 4, while getting auto-pass krders), the list of psychic buffs (Poison Cultists were always hilarious)/Warlord Traits are gone, Marks are gone period (Black Legion and Word Bearers were the only 2 Legions that could mix/match marks), Champion of Chaos is gone, Spell Familiars are gone...they've lost a lot compared to their previous iteration, but I guess it's now possible to build a 6-Heldrake list for games now so yay?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.

The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.

I am waiting till I have the actual books and got a few games in to have a firm opinion.

Thus far I am heartened by the base mechanics and apparent play style but need to try it out for real.

Also positive that there is so much debate about units at the moment and that so many different units appear to be viable.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
When fluff and crunch don't align, or the game devolves into RAW versus RAI, or the nerfs destroy the whole purpose of fielding a unit in the first place, that's when the game falls apart for me.

Tyranids in 7th are the prime example of this. When they're described as an all-devouring swarm, I guess they don't mean in terms of the models fielded but in terms of how many Devourer shots are being fired by Hive Tyrants.

Or with 8th, it takes a lot of nerve for people to imply that Obliterators were overpowered in 7th. So why were they hit so hard with the nerfbat? Why was their "morph-a-gun" shtick replaced with an Orky Autocannon? Why force them to run in squads of 3 or remove their Fists? Sure, they can reliably Deepstrike and they can shoot while advancing, but if the same "tactics" for a Landspeeder are now the same for this slow hulking gun-brute, something went wrong.

The fact Traitor Legions is gone (it was only out since December), with no Legion rules is insulting. The fact you can now freely field Magnus (as a LOW, he is a detachment of one) alongside Death Guard is even more insulting for this edition too. Then you notice the detail in which Warhammer Community articles go into for armies (compare the detail that went into the Chaos Faction Focus vs Harlequins), to the bold-faced lies in other articles (seriously, I had to take a break from reading Frankie talk about Thousand Sons) and there's still obvious favoritism going on.

The crunch has NEVER followed the fluff. It's so disjointed that I actively avoid the fluff, not just because it is terrible fiction, but so I don't have my perception of the game skewed.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.

That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.

It was not easy to beat IG in 5th. There were no easy exploitations vs good IG players. Not all dominant IG lists were leafblower. It was just a good codex.

IG worked fine vs BA in 7th. IG players saying otherwise are terrible at the game and shouldn't be listened to. Also, good IG lists in 7th didn't use Russes at all. Just as good BA lists didn't use ASM at all. Fluff means nothing in the crunch.

Space Wolves weren't/aren't overly fond of them either.
Laugh at that Strength 10 Ap1 large blast as you roll three 3s and it bounces off your Storm Shield but fear the fifty plus Lasgun shots that you'll be taking the same save against.

Wolves were tanking lasguns with a 2+ armor IC. Let's be real here.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.

The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.

I am waiting till I have the actual books and got a few games in to have a firm opinion.

Thus far I am heartened by the base mechanics and apparent play style but need to try it out for real.

Also positive that there is so much debate about units at the moment and that so many different units appear to be viable.

And that there is nothing anyone has picked out as "oh my god, that's ridiculously powerful." When the Eldar Codex came out, anyone could see that spamming bikes with the right loadout was going to be broken before playing a single game with it. There is nothing like that I've seen anyone bring up here so far.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.

The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.

Good. They can burn as far as I care.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I think Chaos look like Saturday morning cartoon villians because their players have the exact same hissy fits.
"It's not fair! Why does everyone take the good guy's side? It's just a damn popularity contest!".

Other than some concerns about the relative cost of Space Marines, I haven't heard too much complaining from CSM players.

If anything, the game is a little more fair than it's been in years.

Even within the scope of an individual codex there's a dramatic gap between the fluff and crunch. From rare prototype Riptides being fielded in massed numbers, to Dark Angels and Space Wolves teaming up to form The Superfriends, or the Eldar fielding a solo Culexus Assassin in order to disable said Superfriends, or Asdrubael Vect being absent altogether because he doesn't have a current model.

Tyranids, the all-devouring swarm are outnumbered by their foes as they relied on massed Flying Hive Tyrants for an aerial alpha-strike that would do Moshe Dayan proud, while Tactical Marines only serve as a "tax" to flood the board in cheap APCs to run over enemy troops. Meanwhile, there was a saying prior to Traitor Legions that "you win with Chaos Space Marines if you don't take any Chaos Space Marines in your army."

It's funny because tactical marines have ALWAYS been a dumpster fire unit. All the way back to 2nd. They were passable in 3rd until Xenos got codices. Then back to the dumpster fire.

8th ed, with universal split fire, has probably done the most to make THE iconic unit not a pile of poo. And heavies get -1 to hit when moving, not snap fire or no fire.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I think Chaos look like Saturday morning cartoon villians because their players have the exact same hissy fits.
"It's not fair! Why does everyone take the good guy's side? It's just a damn popularity contest!".

Other than some concerns about the relative cost of Space Marines, I haven't heard too much complaining from CSM players.

If anything, the game is a little more fair than it's been in years.

Obliterators are the big one, just because it was a pointless nerf to a unit that wasn't even that powerful for its points, that removed the whole point of fielding in the first place. Meanwhile a unit like the Riptide got costed upwards to impracticality, but it at least got to keep its Nova Reactor mechanic and play like it did.

I think that's a very accurate pricing for the Riptide. And yes, it's combination of abilities, when accurately priced are rather impractical. Sorry, but these playtesters are just being honest about its in-game worth.

Martel732 wrote:
It's funny because tactical marines have ALWAYS been a dumpster fire unit. All the way back to 2nd. They were passable in 3rd until Xenos got codices. Then back to the dumpster fire.

8th ed, with universal split fire, has probably done the most to make THE iconic unit not a pile of poo. And heavies get -1 to hit when moving, not snap fire or no fire.

3rd was the era when Eldar could spam Starcannons, and the lack of TLOS meant you could hide a pile of War Walkers behind a Conceal/Fortune Guardian-blob. Of course it was also the era where Ulthwe could make a Seerstar by adding Infinity Warlocks to a Council.

5th made Grey Hunters viable, but that was a function of better transport rules then, and them getting the "Chaos grab bag." 6th fixed Rapid-fire but it also nerfed transport disembarks, and 7th kept that.

Honestly, if it was "5e transport rules for disembark/assault", 7e hullpoints with slight adjustments upward, replacing vehicle destroyed with "extra D3 HP", and making all Marines 15 pts base for Bolter/Pistol/Chainsword, you'd have a nice solidified base to work off from there, rather than these little granular differences like "Chaos Space Marines get Bolt Pistols AND Chainswords".