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Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.

If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.

That standard is unreasonable. Lascannon devastators are supposed to be good at killing tanks. If there's a strong possibility that they won't remove your leeman russ on turn 1, is that a sign that they aren't good at killing tanks?

I don't know why Traditio is so scared of a manticore. Im pretty sure a 100 point squad of biovores supported by a single venomthrope would kill it in two or 3 turns. Biovores OP. Please give plastic kit, so I can spam. Astartes tears make excellent dipping sauce for progenoid glands.

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.

If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.

That standard is unreasonable. Lascannon devastators are supposed to be good at killing tanks. If there's a strong possibility that they won't remove your leeman russ on turn 1, is that a sign that they aren't good at killing tanks?

That standard is exactly what we're looking for, over here in the Imperial Guard.

We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.

If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.

That standard is unreasonable. Lascannon devastators are supposed to be good at killing tanks. If there's a strong possibility that they won't remove your leeman russ on turn 1, is that a sign that they aren't good at killing tanks?

That standard is exactly what we're looking for, over here in the Imperial Guard.

We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.

That's not true in 8th edition. Conscripts are able to fall back and then "Get Back in the Fight."

 Traditio wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Because the tank was alive at the beginning of your turn two.

If it can't kill a tank in 2 turns, it's not good at killing tanks. If it can't cripple a tank in 1 turn, it's not good at killing tanks.

That standard is unreasonable. Lascannon devastators are supposed to be good at killing tanks. If there's a strong possibility that they won't remove your leeman russ on turn 1, is that a sign that they aren't good at killing tanks?

That standard is exactly what we're looking for, over here in the Imperial Guard.

We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.

That's not true in 8th edition. Conscripts are able to fall back and then "Get Back in the Fight."

That cuts their firepower in half, you realize.

I'd say its a bit early to start thinking about army "Tiers" especially since comparatively few people here have actually played the new edition and there haven't been any major tournaments for 8th yet. But from what I seen and discussed with my regular playing group, 8th Edition looks at this moment to be very balanced between the various armies.

Personally, I'm looking forward to a game where the core rules aren't a total mess and I don't get funny looks from people when I tell them I play Eldar. And as much as I enjoy the look and lore behind Dark Eldar, I would appreciate if they didn't suck so much thank you.

niv-mizzet wrote:Screening units are a thing now. If your opponent catches something valuable in a first turn assault, you screwed up your deployment or your army creation.

Screening units are important, as is proper deployment, but I think mobility is going to be critical this edition too. Infiltrate and Deep Strike have changed enough to where they can totally alter the board state, arguably even more so than last edition. It seems like if you aren't aiming for a first-turn charge, you need to have some way of either kiting your enemy back&around the table edges or drop in/sneak up in their deployment zone.

Crimson Devil wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
I guess I need to read through the other indicies, because I have no idea what people are on about with this "guard got nerfed" business. I mean, if you haven't played since 5th ed? Yeah, maybe. Compared to 7th though? Well, either I was playing a different game or I really need to see what everyone else got if guard look nerfed by comparison.

It's mainly panic setting in for those that can't see how their army is going to rank in 8th. It's simply too early to know. If you look around there is a thread for every army with someone losing their gak over the new edition. In a couple of months we will have a better idea of where each army stands in the rankings, Once those handful of players that actually create the net lists do their thing.

From what I've seen of the Eldar codex, the most ridiculously OP things got toned down severely but Eldar are far from being bad. Battle Focus has been changed to make the army want to move much more aggressively, and the various Aspect Warriors are still quite capable at their jobs.

Wave Serpents are going to be scary. Eight S6 shots from a Twin Scatter Laser will be brutal, and with the standard loadout they won't have had as large of a price increase compared to other Transports.

Not entirely sold on Dire Avengers being 17ppm, but the 7" move+Battle Focus and the ability to Overwatch on a 5+ might compensate for that. I'll need to play with them myself to see, but I'm also not sold on them being useless.

Ubl1k wrote:The lack of so many units in the Death Guard army is really disheartening, ill give it a couple weeks until the codex releases hopefully but until then not gonna play them much, get in my face orks

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't generic CSM gain the ability to join one of the "Legion" armies if they take a Mark for the respective Chaos God?

Purifier wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Is it just me, or does it feel like it's way too soon to be talking about tiers in 8th edition? It's going to take some time to learn how mechanics and stats interact to create imbalances.

The only general observation I can make is that Eldar are no longer way, way OP. Having watched a couple battles with them vs Orks and Tyranids, it's clear they are a lot more susceptible to horde armies than they once were.

I am waiting till I have the actual books and got a few games in to have a firm opinion.

Thus far I am heartened by the base mechanics and apparent play style but need to try it out for real.

Also positive that there is so much debate about units at the moment and that so many different units appear to be viable.

And that there is nothing anyone has picked out as "oh my god, that's ridiculously powerful." When the Eldar Codex came out, anyone could see that spamming bikes with the right loadout was going to be broken before playing a single game with it. There is nothing like that I've seen anyone bring up here so far.

Apart from the OP and Manticores, but fortunately nobody takes him seriously. If it isn't his exact army and balanced against his exact setup, it must be overpowered!

Azreal13 wrote:I love how, having repeatedly demonstrated a total and fundamental lack of understanding of what "OP" is in 7th, and displayed a total lack of concern for actual balance as long as you had the balance you wanted, you've actually started already on an edition that isn't even out yet.

Frankly, it's ridiculous to the point of parody, and I say this not as an attack but as a simple statement of opinion, Dakka is a better forum when you're not posting in it.

Quoted and Exalted for truth.

Marmatag wrote:I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).

Tyranids: +++
Necrons: +
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: even
Eldar: - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: -
Grey Knights: - -
Blood Angels: ++
Space Wolves: +
Dark Angels: - - -
Tau: even
Daemons: - -
Chaos Space Marines: ++

Tau got toned down almost as much as certain Eldar units. See Stormsurge and Riptide base prices, along with the change to how Markerlights work.

If I'm reading this chart right with all the + and - the various armies might, for what may very well be the first time ever, be in a balanced state vs. each other.

Traditio wrote:That's not true in 8th edition. Conscripts are able to fall back and then "Get Back in the Fight."

You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.

It's why Tau haven't magically gained CC durability because they can now leave after the 1st round. You have to have models remaining in the unit for it to fall back.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Wave Serpents are going to be scary. Eight S6 shots from a Twin Scatter Laser will be brutal, and with the standard loadout they won't have had as large of a price increase compared to other Transports.

I would of thought it's going to be all about Tri Shuricannons on the Wave Serpents as they're assault, no ?
Ditto everyone ripping Scatters Lasers off their bikes to put Shuricannons on.

For the manticore discussion it is really about what options you use.

Droppodding devs with grav cannons have a good chance to destroy the Mantacore if you include a re-roll character in the pod with them.

The same with lascannons has a good chance at severely crippling it

The mantacore is very good, but it is not game winning on its own.

Killing a knight over the course of the game is not game breaking, it is not amazing against hordes, or cheap infantry in general. IT has a very specific role that it is good at, I don't have a problem with that.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
I'd say its a bit early to start thinking about army "Tiers" especially since comparatively few people here have actually played the new edition and there haven't been any major tournaments for 8th yet. But from what I seen and discussed with my regular playing group, 8th Edition looks at this moment to be very balanced between the various armies.

The relative balance between units has changed, this is obvious. The most Over Powered stuff of 7th has been toned down a lot, that is without question. It seems that some people are sad because their 7th edition stuff of doom is not as crazy as it used to be and I can totally understand this.

From what I have seen it seems that battles in 8th edition are far more depending on player skill during the game than on list building. IMO in 7th the battle was decided before the game begun far too often.

Of course not everything is exactly balanced. As long as you are trying to achieve game balance by playtesting (and not by... say excessive computer simulations that run millions of games) you will never succeed.

But so far 8th seems indeed to be the most balanced edition of 40k ever (I admit that the bar is not high to achieve this, though)

Necron, tau, and space marines got better, which is mind boggling since they were already top tier. But I guess what do you expect when you have tournament players, who play mostly those armies, advise on rules.

GSC got completely gutted of all their core rules and flavor, yet went up in points.

Danny slag wrote:
Necron, tau, and space marines got better, which is mind boggling since they were already top tier. But I guess what do you expect when you have tournament players, who play mostly those armies, advise on rules.

GSC got completely gutted of all their core rules and flavor, yet went up in points.

Errr, I think tau and SM got worse overall. No gladius, and a price hike on riptides/stormsurges (which were the only tau units seen in top levels of tournies anyways)

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).

Tyranids: +++
Necrons: +
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: even
Eldar: - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: -
Grey Knights: - -
Blood Angels: ++
Space Wolves: +
Dark Angels: - - -
Tau: even
Daemons: - -
Chaos Space Marines: ++

I'm really curious how you came to these guesses? ...Specifically I'd like to know how you believe the Blood Angels increased "++"? ...they were a weak codex prior, that relied heavily on Drop-pods to compete at a lower tier, now they've essentially lost the drop-pods, gained in points and lost most of their special rules.

And Grey Knights "--"? ...they were a weak codex prior and have seen some minor improvement at least.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
That standard is exactly what we're looking for, over here in the Imperial Guard.

We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.

Considering how cheap heavy weapon teams are, IG can spam lascannons like no other army. You should be fine. If you aren't that means tanks are extremely hard to kill this edition, in which case you are also one of the best armies for spamming tanks.

Really a win win for you.

I still think ba pod lists were not that great to begin with.

At any rate, jump packs got a lot better, so i'd say a single + is in order.

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?

Drop pods, and deep strike in general, don't work in 8th edition. You have to deploy at least 9 inches away from the opponents' models.

If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).

Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.

Again, the problem with manticores is indirect fire.

Literally the only significant threat to manticores in the SM codex is the primaris rhino, and even then, the SM player is hoping against all hope that those dice actually come out with good results. Because he only gets one shot.

I gotta agree with Tradition on this particular case, 133 points Manticores are broken for what they do, they should be priced appropriately (like 220 minimum considering they can fire behind a wall unpunished)
If manticores were 48 inch range, needed line of sight, and could use their missiles every single turn, they wouldn't be a problem.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.

Every Conscript squad is going to have a Commissar close to it. That limits battleshock to a maximum of 1 death. Sure, you can kill the Commissar in a variety of ways but it definitely makes the Conscripts better.

For manticores, SM have drop pods and anything that gets some variety of deepstrike, as well as flying vehicles whose movement+elevated LoS should make that easier. Oh, and whirlwinds of course, both varieties could put a dent in manticores.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Necron, tau, and space marines got better, which is mind boggling since they were already top tier. But I guess what do you expect when you have tournament players, who play mostly those armies, advise on rules.

GSC got completely gutted of all their core rules and flavor, yet went up in points.

Errr, I think tau and SM got worse overall. No gladius, and a price hike on riptides/stormsurges (which were the only tau units seen in top levels of tournies anyways)

Toning down one insanely OP thing per army, but making everything else across the board bettter, especially with being able to walk away from combat then shoot in the same turn, primary's marines, etc, doesn't really sound "worse." One thing per Amy may have gotten worse, everything else either staid the same or got better.

Conscripts seem to be the most scary thing to me - and other things like them. Big blobs of cheap effectively immune to morale infantry. Others are Ork Boys and Gaunts.

You can only kill so much and Battleshock is clearly the way to get past that - but every one of those has easy ways to make Battleshock not a factor. And even if you manage to remove those methods, 2CP can cover you for a critical turn easy enough.

Combine with objectives being controlled by who has the most models, or achieved by killing units? Much harder to kill 30 boys or 50 conscripts than it is to kill 5 dudes with special weapons.

Those with flying assault troops - or just flying guys in general may be able to get to Commissars easier. Boyz reinforce each other for morale though, and with Tyranid Warriors quite possibly being a lot better you may see quite a bit more gaunts and plenty of Synapse available.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
That standard is exactly what we're looking for, over here in the Imperial Guard.

We need to render a tank unable to complete it's mission quickly. A rhino or razorback only needs to survive for one turn. It needs to live through my first round of shooting, and if it did that, it completed it's mission.

Considering how cheap heavy weapon teams are, IG can spam lascannons like no other army. You should be fine. If you aren't that means tanks are extremely hard to kill this edition, in which case you are also one of the best armies for spamming tanks.

Really a win win for you.

Okay, I just checked the numbers, the Manticore is pretty okay at wrecking vehicles 8e edition. Everything sucks at it. Spammed HWT's come up to equivalent efficiency as the Manticore. Melta Veterans come out about as efficient. I should probably have noticed the manticore has to be a tank-killer now, because it's terrible at killing infantry, so it has to do something.

Shadowsword rocks at tank killing, but it also costs an insane amount of points to evaporate 1 Razorback a turn. It does make that poor sorry thing very, very dead though.

I'm just pointing out to Traditio that it's not good enough at killing tanks to prohibit counter-play. Your vehicles, half the price of it, can take the hit. Because Space Marines are likely to have fewer drops than guard, they go first, move up to half board on their turn, and all of their troops are now within close-assault range of the Imperial Guard frontline. If I pound his tank with 2 Manticores to clean it off and let me shoot the guys inside, it took four times its cost in firepower to remove. To quote Traditio: "Does that sound like a good trade to you?"

It's worth mention, to Traditio, that his tanks don't even have to survive the turn, just the guys inside them. But, in order for the guys inside them to die, the tanks have to die. So Razorback or Rhino rushing is a very, very effective counterplay to a manticore.

The Happy Anarchist wrote:Conscripts seem to be the most scary thing to me - and other things like them. Big blobs of cheap effectively immune to morale infantry. Others are Ork Boys and Gaunts.

You can only kill so much and Battleshock is clearly the way to get past that - but every one of those has easy ways to make Battleshock not a factor. And even if you manage to remove those methods, 2CP can cover you for a critical turn easy enough.

Combine with objectives being controlled by who has the most models, or achieved by killing units? Much harder to kill 30 boys or 50 conscripts than it is to kill 5 dudes with special weapons.

Those with flying assault troops - or just flying guys in general may be able to get to Commissars easier. Boyz reinforce each other for morale though, and with Tyranid Warriors quite possibly being a lot better you may see quite a bit more gaunts and plenty of Synapse available.

Yep, Conscripts are where it's at now, I think.


On the Shadowsword:

The lines show the chance of inflicting at least X wounds, the bars show the chance of inflicting X wounds.

It's interesting that a Land Raider is more survivable than a Baneblade against the Volcano Cannon.

Danny slag wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Necron, tau, and space marines got better, which is mind boggling since they were already top tier. But I guess what do you expect when you have tournament players, who play mostly those armies, advise on rules.

GSC got completely gutted of all their core rules and flavor, yet went up in points.

Errr, I think tau and SM got worse overall. No gladius, and a price hike on riptides/stormsurges (which were the only tau units seen in top levels of tournies anyways)

Toning down one insanely OP thing per army, but making everything else across the board bettter, especially with being able to walk away from combat then shoot in the same turn, primary's marines, etc, doesn't really sound "worse." One thing per Amy may have gotten worse, everything else either staid the same or got better.

Grav got worse for SM, but I haven't looked through much to see what really changed. I suppose no more insane psyker support/invis deathstars/smashfether for now too.

Tau suits all got WAY more expensive (broadsides more than doubled, crisis suits tripled or worse depending on what weapons they take), markerlights got way worse, and leadership overall got worse for tau (everyone dropped by 1 pretty much). Plus, you can only walk from combat if you have anything LEFT to walk away, which given the new LD values is pretty unlikely.

Yeah "better".

Breng77 wrote:
For the manticore discussion it is really about what options you use.

Droppodding devs with grav cannons have a good chance to destroy the Mantacore if you include a re-roll character in the pod with them.

The same with lascannons has a good chance at severely crippling it

The mantacore is very good, but it is not game winning on its own.

Killing a knight over the course of the game is not game breaking, it is not amazing against hordes, or cheap infantry in general. IT has a very specific role that it is good at, I don't have a problem with that.

Neither of what you said is a viable tactic vs. manticores.

Even if you throw in a captain or a chapter master, do the math.

Chances are, the SM player won't kill the manticore. And even if he does, the (much more expensive squad) that dropped in to kill that manticore is most certainly going to get wiped on the following turn.

The manticore is patently OP. It needs either a significant points increase, or a significant nerf in terms of its rules (personally, I recommend 48 inch range, requiring LoS and being able to use its missiles every turn).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheNewBlood wrote:You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.

This is what I feel like you guys aren't getting:

The fact that can technically kill the conscripts doesn't make either conscripts, manticores, etc. balanced, because you have to take into account the relative price that I have to pay to do it. To kill those conscripts, I have to expend way more resources than those conscripts are worth, especially given the fact that, whatever MEQ unit I deploy to charge those conscripts is most certainly going to get wiped.

This is why IG was OP in 7th and is still OP in 8th. Virtually nothing an MEQ player does actually matters simply because of numbers.

The manticore is patently OP.

Then prove it. Because even taking every single disengenuous little sidestep you've thrown around under the guise of "the math" at face value the most you've proven is that it's maybe slightly too strong for its points in an ecosystem specifically created to favour its strengths.

Which goes back to my earlier point that you've no clue what you're talking about and the concept of OP is something that's clearly too complex for you to grasp.

Virtually nothing an MEQ player does actually matters simply because of numbers.

No, not "MEQ player" it's "scrub mentality MEQ player who insists on sub optimal choices and cries when he gets bent over as a consequence."

SilverAlien wrote:
For manticores, SM have drop pods and anything that gets some variety of deepstrike, as well as flying vehicles whose movement+elevated LoS should make that easier. Oh, and whirlwinds of course, both varieties could put a dent in manticores.

Again, none of these things are viable option.

Before someone proposes another solution and tries to hand-wave off my allegation that manticores are OP, I request that you meet the following criteria:

1. Do some math. Is it statistically likely that what you are proposing is actually going to kill the manticore?

2. Do some math. Is it statistically likely, under normal conditions, that the losses that I will suffer will be greater than the cost of the manticore?

Unless the answer to question 1 is "yes," and the answer to the second question is "no," what you are proposing is NOT a viable solution to manticores, and manticores are overpowered.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).

Tyranids: +++
Necrons: +
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: even
Eldar: - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: -
Grey Knights: - -
Blood Angels: ++
Space Wolves: +
Dark Angels: - - -
Tau: even
Daemons: - -
Chaos Space Marines: ++

I'm really curious how you came to these guesses? ...Specifically I'd like to know how you believe the Blood Angels increased "++"? ...they were a weak codex prior, that relied heavily on Drop-pods to compete at a lower tier, now they've essentially lost the drop-pods, gained in points and lost most of their special rules.

And Grey Knights "--"? ...they were a weak codex prior and have seen some minor improvement at least.

Blood Angels benefit as what made them unique got stronger. Their HQs are actually really solid now, Jump Packs got WAY better for them, the psychic phase changes immediately helped them. Additionally, they can add all primaris stuff on top of that. Codex wide buffs coupled with new units that will synergize well and give them the shooting they lacked in previous editions. Buffs overall to melee really helped these guys. They got measurably better so they get two +'s. I'm not saying they're "two +'s better than average," just that they improved significantly. I can't define what "average" is at the moment - no one can.

Grey Knights got measurably worse, this army is an army of psykers that can really only cast smite at reduced effectiveness and range. Their heavy weapons, psilencers and psycannons, are very weak overall, and they can't take any of the new primaris marines in their army. They have very limited HQ options, and their "force multipliers" really only come into play against Daemons. Grey Knights still have no anti-vehicle, pretty much no anti-air, will get dwarfed by any MSU army, and can't hang with the elite melee units in other codexes. Dreadknight ability to shunt was removed, the flamer received colossal nerf from what it was... Bottom line is these are a gutter army.


+++ = Most improved army
++ = huge improvements over previous edition
+ = slight improvements over previous edition
even = net positives and net negatives make it a wash
- = got slightly worse from previous edition
- - = got measurably worse than previous edition
- - - = heavily nerfed, or core armies invalidated.

In fact, if you want to know just HOW overpowered the manticore is, find a solution to manticores that allows you to answer "yes" to the first question, but also "yes" to the second question. Find out the points difference between my losses and that manticore.

That's how overpowered it is simply in terms of durability.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Not entirely sold on Dire Avengers being 17ppm, but the 7" move+Battle Focus and the ability to Overwatch on a 5+ might compensate for that. I'll need to play with them myself to see, but I'm also not sold on them being useless.

Ubl1k wrote:The lack of so many units in the Death Guard army is really disheartening, ill give it a couple weeks until the codex releases hopefully but until then not gonna play them much, get in my face orks

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't generic CSM gain the ability to join one of the "Legion" armies if they take a Mark for the respective Chaos God?

Yes and no; generic CSM can take a Legion tag, but only Plague Marines can take the <Death Guard> tag. Anything not on the army list can't be <Death Guard>.

 Traditio wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
For the manticore discussion it is really about what options you use.

Droppodding devs with grav cannons have a good chance to destroy the Mantacore if you include a re-roll character in the pod with them.

The same with lascannons has a good chance at severely crippling it

The mantacore is very good, but it is not game winning on its own.

Killing a knight over the course of the game is not game breaking, it is not amazing against hordes, or cheap infantry in general. IT has a very specific role that it is good at, I don't have a problem with that.

Neither of what you said is a viable tactic vs. manticores.

Even if you throw in a captain or a chapter master, do the math.

Chances are, the SM player won't kill the manticore. And even if he does, the (much more expensive squad) that dropped in to kill that manticore is most certainly going to get wiped on the following turn.

The manticore is patently OP. It needs either a significant points increase, or a significant nerf in terms of its rules (personally, I recommend 48 inch range, requiring LoS and being able to use its missiles every turn).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheNewBlood wrote:You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.

This is what I feel like you guys aren't getting:

The fact that can technically kill the conscripts doesn't make either conscripts, manticores, etc. balanced, because you have to take into account the relative price that I have to pay to do it. To kill those conscripts, I have to expend way more resources than those conscripts are worth, especially given the fact that, whatever MEQ unit I deploy to charge those conscripts is most certainly going to get wiped.

This is why IG was OP in 7th and is still OP in 8th. Virtually nothing an MEQ player does actually matters simply because of numbers.

I did the math and it is viable. You then use you other stuff to make it less likely you will get wiped out. It is clear you have no desire to consider tactics that might work and have given up assuming something you have yet to play against is broken.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I love how, having repeatedly demonstrated a total and fundamental lack of understanding of what "OP" is in 7th, and displayed a total lack of concern for actual balance as long as you had the balance you wanted, you've actually started already on an edition that isn't even out yet.

Frankly, it's ridiculous to the point of parody, and I say this not as an attack but as a simple statement of opinion, Dakka is a better forum when you're not posting in it.

Hahahaha. I might quote you for my sig.

Breng77 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Traditio wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
For the manticore discussion it is really about what options you use.

Droppodding devs with grav cannons have a good chance to destroy the Mantacore if you include a re-roll character in the pod with them.

The same with lascannons has a good chance at severely crippling it

The mantacore is very good, but it is not game winning on its own.

Killing a knight over the course of the game is not game breaking, it is not amazing against hordes, or cheap infantry in general. IT has a very specific role that it is good at, I don't have a problem with that.

Neither of what you said is a viable tactic vs. manticores.

Even if you throw in a captain or a chapter master, do the math.

Chances are, the SM player won't kill the manticore. And even if he does, the (much more expensive squad) that dropped in to kill that manticore is most certainly going to get wiped on the following turn.

The manticore is patently OP. It needs either a significant points increase, or a significant nerf in terms of its rules (personally, I recommend 48 inch range, requiring LoS and being able to use its missiles every turn).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheNewBlood wrote:You can only fall back if you're still alive. Vs. 10 of most MEQ (or a given army's closest equivalent) with standard weapons, a round of shooting followed by a round of Assault (assuming the Conscripts aren't hitting first) will wipe out enough of a 20-strong Conscript blob to where Battleshock will wipe them out thanks to low Ld.

This is what I feel like you guys aren't getting:

The fact that can technically kill the conscripts doesn't make either conscripts, manticores, etc. balanced, because you have to take into account the relative price that I have to pay to do it. To kill those conscripts, I have to expend way more resources than those conscripts are worth, especially given the fact that, whatever MEQ unit I deploy to charge those conscripts is most certainly going to get wiped.

This is why IG was OP in 7th and is still OP in 8th. Virtually nothing an MEQ player does actually matters simply because of numbers.

I did the math and it is viable. You then use you other stuff to make it less likely you will get wiped out. It is clear you have no desire to consider tactics that might work and have given up assuming something you have yet to play against is broken.

As per usual.