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2 pods of lascannon devs and shrike will be fairly likely to kill a mantacore and take little damage in return. Barring crazy terrain you can drop in LOS and at long rang (mitigating retaliation by other units) perhaps even in cover.

10 lascannon shots 6 hitting 75% of the time, 4 hitting 89%. So likely to be 8 times. Wound on 3+ so ~6 wounds one will get saved so that is 5d6 damage an average 17 wounds.

Breng. It's not viable. Here are the numbers:

Drop pod grav cannons and Chapter Master Shryke vs. manticore, even assuming ideal conditions (literally a flat table with no terrain; this is another problem with drop pod grav cannons. If you've deployed properly, I have to deploy 9 inches away from your conscripts. If I take grav cannons, I may not be able to reach your manticore: assuming hammer and anvil, 24 inch deployment zone + 9 inches = 33 inches):

Prior to rerolls:

4/1 (number of shots) X 2/3 (to hit) X 1/3 (to wound) X 5/6 (to bypass saves) = 40/54 unsaved wounds

12/1 (number of shots) X 1/2 (to hit) X 1/3 (to wound) X 5/6 (to bypass saves) = 60 /36

Rerolls:

4/3 X 2/3 X 1/3 X 5/6 = 20/54

6/1 X 1/2 X 1/3 X 5/6 = 30/36

20/54 + 40/54 = 60/54
30/36 + 60/36 = 90/36

Added together, that's 3 11/18 unsaved proto wounds.

Actual average damage will be 6 22/18, or 7 2/9 unsaved wounds.

So, what the math reveals is that not only does a MUCH more expensive squad get wiped on the following turn, but I still couldn't even kill the manticore.

Likewise, lascannon drop pod + Shryke:

Prior to rerolls:

2/3 X 2/3 X 5/6 = 20/54

3/1 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 5/6= 30/36

Rerolls:

1/3 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 5/6 = 20/162
3/2 X 1/2 X 2/3 X 5/6 = 30/48

Added together, that adds up to almost 2, which means average damage of almost 7 wounds.

So, once again, not only do I not kill the manticore, but a MUCH more expensive squad gets wiped on the following turn.

Your math is as suspect as your logic.

 Melissia wrote:
Your math is as suspect as your logic.

Feel free to point out the mathematical errors, but all of this is very basic stuff.

So that just proves you don't know how probability works.

Rerolls mean a 3+ hits 88.89% and a 4+ hits 75%.

You also take the armorium cherub to shoot twice with you 3+ hitting model.

So for grav

12 x 3/4x1/3x5/6= 180/72=2.5
And
8x8/9x1/3x5/6= 320/162= 1.97

Or about 4.5 so 9 wounds.

But deployment could be trouble so double lascannon team who can deploy at range is a better option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Your math is as suspect as your logic.

For re-rolls you need to calculate the odds of missing both shots, the subtract that from 1 for your odds to hit.

 Traditio wrote:
In fact, if you want to know just HOW overpowered the manticore is, find a solution to manticores that allows you to answer "yes" to the first question, but also "yes" to the second question. Find out the points difference between my losses and that manticore.

That's how overpowered it is simply in terms of durability.

Fellblade. There. Done, both answered.

8x Lascannon shots, plus Fellblade cannon shot, plus Demolisher cannon, on a nice 26+ wound chassis that's going nowhere.

You wipe the manticore off the board in one round of firing, and sustain no meaningful damage yourself.

Also, Rhino. Half the price of the Manticore. It doesn't kill the manticore, but it doesn't need to.


Also, do you want to know why the manticore can kill more than it's points cost? Because Guardsmen can't.

Breng77 wrote:
So that just proves you don't know how probability works.

Rerolls mean a 3+ hits 88.89% and a 4+ hits 75%.

You also take the armorium cherub to shoot twice with you 3+ hitting model.

So for grav

12 x 3/4x1/3x5/6= 180/72=2.5
And
8x8/9x1/3x5/6= 320/162= 1.97

Or about 4.5 so 9 wounds.

I won't even bother going through the trouble to dispute this.

Let's suppose that your math were accurate.

What you are alleging is STILL that the grav cannons don't kill the manticore, and a much more expensive squad gets wiped.

But deployment could be trouble so double lascannon team who can deploy at range is a better option.

Do you know how much a double lascannon team costs? And are these teams in drop pods? Are they accompanied by Shryke?

You understand why, even if this technically meets the first criterion (actually kills the manticore), it does not meet my second criterion (my losses are not greater than the cost of the manticore), yes?

I was going to, then Breng posted basically what I was going to say.

You're sitting here whining about Imperial Guard being overpowered when they've never even made a dent on the competitive scene since Leafblower back in fifth-- and even leafblower had serious vulnerabilities that the competitive scene quickly adapted to in order to counter it, leaving it little more than a short-lived fad. In 6th and 7th, the only way they're competitive is literally if you decide to gimp your army and play it at its weakest possible state, and even then, you STILL stand a good chance at beating them-- the same cannot be said of if Guard played at its weakest against a competitive Marine army.

You can't even make a successful argument about a single unit in the codex, never mind anything else in it. The elite units in the codex are a joke and often rarely ever actually taken, the fast attack units are usually iffy save for the fliers, which themselves aren't even better than what the various flavors of Marines or Eldar can get, and their troops choices are often little more than meat shields with the heavy weapons you vaunt as being oh so op dramatically underperforming point per point compared to heavy weapons carried by marines.

Have you ever considered that you just suck at playing the game and make poor tactical decisions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your math is as suspect as your logic.

For re-rolls you need to calculate the odds of missing both shots, the subtract that from 1 for your odds to hit.

Was talking about Traditio.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Fellblade. There. Done, both answered.

8x Lascannon shots, plus Fellblade cannon shot, plus Demolisher cannon, on a nice 26+ wound chassis that's going nowhere.

1. Even assuming that the fellblade is able to kill the manticore (you are ignoring LoS and range issues),

2. there is no Fellblade in the SM index.

 Traditio wrote:
I won't even bother going through the trouble to dispute this.

Because you can't.

Also, Rhino. Half the price of the Manticore. It doesn't kill the manticore, but it doesn't need to.

A rhino with what embarked models?

A rhino by itself is not going to do anything except, perhaps, crash into your conscripts, who, in turn, will fall back, get back in the fight, and deal wounds to the rhino.

Also, do you want to know why the manticore can kill more than it's points cost? Because Guardsmen can't.

1. They don't need to. That's not what they're for.

2. 8th edition conscripts and guardsmen are much more effective in 8th. Lasguns now wound T5 models on 5s. Furthermore, they are able to deal wounds to vehicles.

Combined with orders, the damage dealing capacity of conscripts and guardsmen is non-negligible.

 Traditio wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
So that just proves you don't know how probability works.

Rerolls mean a 3+ hits 88.89% and a 4+ hits 75%.

You also take the armorium cherub to shoot twice with you 3+ hitting model.

So for grav

12 x 3/4x1/3x5/6= 180/72=2.5
And
8x8/9x1/3x5/6= 320/162= 1.97

Or about 4.5 so 9 wounds.

I won't even bother going through the trouble to dispute this.

Let's suppose that your math were accurate.

What you are alleging is STILL that the grav cannons don't kill the manticore, and a much more expensive squad gets wiped.

But deployment could be trouble so double lascannon team who can deploy at range is a better option.

Do you know how much a double lascannon team costs? And are these teams in drop pods? Are they accompanied by Shryke?

You understand why, even if this technically meets the first criterion (actually kills the manticore), it does not meet my second criterion (my losses are not greater than the cost of the manticore), yes?

Sure it meets #2. What makes it a necessity that you will lose those squads? With 48" range there will be plenty of safe in LOS deployment options, You can also apply threat with other things to draw fire. It is more expensive sure, but there is no auto loss of those units.

Breng77 wrote:Sure it meets #2. What makes it a necessity that you will lose those squads? With 48" range there will be plenty of safe in LOS deployment options, You can also apply threat with other things to draw fire. It is more expensive sure, but there is no auto loss of those units.

You can't assume that I'll be able to deploy 48 inches away. The likelihood is that IG counter-deployment will force a midfield deployment of the drop pods, lascannon teams and shryke simply in order to draw LoS to the manticore with both teams.

And then here's the question: will those teams have the luxury of cover? Again, we cannot assume that.

So what is likely going to happen is that those teams will be in plain sight and in range of the entire IG army.

So we can safely assume that the squads will get wiped, or if they don't, it's because the IG opponent is taking an even bigger chunk out of my army.

No, that is not a viable solution.

Propose a solution that costs as much as or less than the manticore, or else, admit that the manticore is OP.

Everyone needs to stop acting as though shooting is the way to kill anything in this edition.

It's melee. A bunch of power fists / hammers will absolutely smash vehicles.

Terminators are better anti-tank than anti-tank gun squads.

 Marmatag wrote:
Everyone needs to stop acting as though shooting is the way to kill anything in this edition.

It's melee. A bunch of power fists / hammers will absolutely smash vehicles.

Terminators are better anti-tank than anti-tank gun squads.

How do you propose that I get those terminators to the manticore? You realize that conscripts are 3 ppm and will only ever lose 1 model in the battleshock phase due to commissars, yes?

No it is not a viable assumption that you will need to deploy in the open in range of his entire army. And this is the problem you assume optimal conditions for IG (Big LOS blocker in their deployment zone, can deny all good shooting angles, will both deny all good land zones and be in range with everything. ). And assume the wise for the marines. I assume normal things from both. I assume I can get range above 30", can maybe get some cover. I assume I can bring other threats to bear to occupy a good deal of the guard shooting. Maybe termies within 10" of their blobs, bikes or razorbacks peppering those squads, making full firing on those devs a mistake. Or I could just go super rhino MSU and ignore the mantacore entirely.

Breng77 wrote:
No it is not a viable assumption that you will need to deploy in the open in range of his entire army. And this is the problem you assume optimal conditions for IG (Big LOS blocker in their deployment zone, can deny all good shooting angles, will both deny all good land zones and be in range with everything. ). And assume the wise for the marines. I assume normal things from both. I assume I can get range above 30", can maybe get some cover. I assume I can bring other threats to bear to occupy a good deal of the guard shooting. Maybe termies within 10" of their blobs, bikes or razorbacks peppering those squads, making full firing on those devs a mistake. Or I could just go super rhino MSU and ignore the mantacore entirely.

1. "Ignore the manticore entirely" is not an acceptable answer. It was not an acceptable answer for wraithknights. It was not an acceptable answer for riptides. It is not an acceptable answer for manticores. If you are telling me to ignore it, you are admitting that there is no viable answer to it, and it's OP.

2. Even assuming "normal" conditions, in order to make the points back, the IG player only has to kill 4 models from one of the lascannon teams. If he wipes an entire lascannon team, then he's made back his points plus some for that manticore.

3. And even if not, then "take termis" has to be counted as part of the overall strategy you are proposing (so now we are at...what? Almost 700 points worth of models to deal with ONE model on the IG side?), and if the IG player kills 3-4 termis, then the manticore has made its points back.

 Traditio wrote:

Also, Rhino. Half the price of the Manticore. It doesn't kill the manticore, but it doesn't need to.

A rhino with what embarked models?

A rhino by itself is not going to do anything except, perhaps, crash into your conscripts, who, in turn, will fall back, get back in the fight, and deal wounds to the rhino.

Whatever the hell you want that's going to help you win the game.




IMO, the Rhino is way too powerful.

It's fast and hilariously resilient for something that costs 40 points. Against an army riding in Rhinos there's simply nothing I can do.

It's just far too versatile. You can stick assault weapons in it and have a rolling box of meltaguns or plasmaguns for half the price the Imperial Guard pays for it. You can stuff them full of assault troops, and get turn 2 charges on me, or if you don't want to lose your guys, you can charge on turn 3 and use the Rhino as a buffer after your disembark. There's just nothing I can do, because they're way too tough. When I shoot them with my premier antitank guns, which cost as much as the thing does just for one gun, the Rhino is at most mildly annoyed! And, once it's unloaded, it can just tank-shock my guys over and over and over again, to secure objective locations.

And of course, to rub the point home, there's the Razorback, which is a Rhino that has a gun on it! A TWIN LINKED gun! That gives the Razorback ability to confront any of my tanks or infantry units! You get a TL Lascannon or Assault Cannon on a survivable chassis for 75 points, while I get a squad of lascannons, that has the same projected damage output but far less survivability, for over 100! And, of course, my gun team will, on at best, mildly annoy the Razorback before the Razorback, or the guy firing from it's fire point, wipes them off the board!

Seriously. It's great the Rhino and Razorback lost their firepoints and recieved price hikes in 8e, but now you can assault out of them! And they're even tougher! There's nothing I have that can kill them that costs less than they do! I mean, they took the step to nerf them, but then they went ahead and buffed them through the roof!

Space Marines are OP and are even more OP in 8th.




By the way, you will always be able to put a model within 48" of a Manticore. The board is only 48" from my edge to your edge. Or 48" from my edge to the front edge of your deployment zone. Since the Manticore cannot, in fact, set up off of the board, you will always be able to set up within 48" of it.

Also, Fellblades are on Page 20 of the Index for FW models, so it is, in fact, legal in 40k games. Unlike the Volkite Glaive, which is not legal. I'm always on the fence about whether I want a Fellblade for my Space Wolves. It's really cool and definitely good, but it's also very expensive.

 Traditio wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
No it is not a viable assumption that you will need to deploy in the open in range of his entire army. And this is the problem you assume optimal conditions for IG (Big LOS blocker in their deployment zone, can deny all good shooting angles, will both deny all good land zones and be in range with everything. ). And assume the wise for the marines. I assume normal things from both. I assume I can get range above 30", can maybe get some cover. I assume I can bring other threats to bear to occupy a good deal of the guard shooting. Maybe termies within 10" of their blobs, bikes or razorbacks peppering those squads, making full firing on those devs a mistake. Or I could just go super rhino MSU and ignore the mantacore entirely.

1. "Ignore the manticore entirely" is not an acceptable answer. It was not an acceptable answer for wraithknights. It was not an acceptable answer for riptides. It is not an acceptable answer for manticores. If you are telling me to ignore it, you are admitting that there is no viable answer to it, and it's OP.

2. Even assuming "normal" conditions, in order to make the points back, the IG player only has to kill 4 models from one of the lascannon teams. If he wipes an entire lascannon team, then he's made back his points plus some for that manticore.

3. And even if not, then "take termis" has to be counted as part of the overall strategy you are proposing (so now we are at...what? Almost 700 points worth of models to deal with ONE model on the IG side?), and if the IG player kills 3-4 termis, then the manticore has made its points back.

1.) no it is saying that against the army I proposed it is of little significance. It will maybe (big maybe) kill 4 units. It is great against high value targets if I have none, it is not that amazing.

2.) assumes I don't take redshirted in those squads. If he kills 2 or 3 bolter marines and 2 lascannons.

3.). Nope, it is considering army against army. As you are giving a whole army to the mantacore player that will kill the drop pod units so it is only fair to say that using my whole army this can be mitigated. You are requiring people to come up with a unit of less than 200 points that will be able to do 11 wounds, and withstand 2000 points of firepower unsupported. No such unit exists. You play the game with your whole army of which the mentioned squads are part of a larger strategy. Killing the mantacore doesn't win the game on its own. So maybe I kill the mantacore and a bunch of those conscripts and lure the opponent to target other units. Trap him in his deployment and win on objectives.

Traditio, are you factoring in the cost of all these bubble wrap squads you keep talking about? Because all of those raise the price of the manticore without actually doing anything other than sitting around the manticore.

indeed a 50 conscript blod is 150 points, a Commissair is 31. making the "doomsday unit" here cost 314 points. for that much I could just take a Land Raider, or a Storm Raven.

And of that, 189 of it isn't doing anything. (8pt for the HB on the manticore, conscript blob and commissar) for 3-4 turns.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:





IMO, the Rhino is way too powerful.

It's fast and hilariously resilient for something that costs 40 points. Against an army riding in Rhinos there's simply nothing I can do.

I'm pretty sure it's 70 points, not 40.
And that's without equipment.

I struggle to see how Manticores will be overpowered unless you put together an army which is especially vulnerable to it.

It will make its points back if it gets to fire four times without anything happening to it. If you get optimal targets it might be 3 turns.

Well great but that is kind of where a lot units are.
Even conscripts will do that in some scenario where they can just throw out rapid fire and are just ignored.

If the Manticore isn't dramatically more damaging than anything else in the army then yes you can ignore it because in points/damage you can kill anything else and have a similar effect.

Wraithknights in 7th were overpowered because they had the capacity to reliably delete whole units a turn. Unless you could feed it chaff if you ignored it then it could wipe half an elite army on its own.
Because of this it tended to attract every gun in the enemy's arsenal but because it had great defensive stats this was usually a good thing and meant the rest of your army wasn't getting torn to pieces.

This is not going to be true of a unit which on average kills a terminator or does 3 wounds to the average vehicle every turn.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:





IMO, the Rhino is way too powerful.

It's fast and hilariously resilient for something that costs 40 points. Against an army riding in Rhinos there's simply nothing I can do.

I'm pretty sure it's 70 points, not 40.
And that's without equipment.

They're 35 right now, 40 for the Sisters of Battle, 45 for the Sisters of Silence.

And, of course, I was trying to be funny.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:





IMO, the Rhino is way too powerful.

It's fast and hilariously resilient for something that costs 40 points. Against an army riding in Rhinos there's simply nothing I can do.

I'm pretty sure it's 70 points, not 40.
And that's without equipment.

They're 35 right now, 40 for the Sisters of Battle, 45 for the Sisters of Silence.

Oh, you mean in 7th. In 8th they will receive a price hike.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Oh, you mean in 7th. In 8th they will receive a price hike.

Yeah, I know. This makes a bit of a mess of my Melta-Dominion lists.

I don't actually have a problem with rhinos and razorbacks. I was just imitating Traditio.

Clearly, we know the Rhino isn't overpowered, but my points aren't entirely wrong. It's fast, it has 2 fire point from which embarked troops can fire from, and if I shoot it with a 105 point lascannon gun team it has about a 1-in-8 chance of dying. It's entirely unfazed by Leman Russ Battle Tanks and Basilisks and Manticores, which are many times their value. Even supposedly dedicated antitank units, like the Leman Russ Vanquisher, or hell, even the 520-point Shadowsword, are fairly poor at killing them. And 75 point Razorback vs. 105-point Lascannon squad results in 3 dead lascannons and a Razorback less 1 out of 3 HP. And they're very spammable, even without getting them for free from the Gladius.

 Traditio wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
For manticores, SM have drop pods and anything that gets some variety of deepstrike, as well as flying vehicles whose movement+elevated LoS should make that easier. Oh, and whirlwinds of course, both varieties could put a dent in manticores.

Again, none of these things are viable option.

Before someone proposes another solution and tries to hand-wave off my allegation that manticores are OP, I request that you meet the following criteria:

1. Do some math. Is it statistically likely that what you are proposing is actually going to kill the manticore?

2. Do some math. Is it statistically likely, under normal conditions, that the losses that I will suffer will be greater than the cost of the manticore?

Unless the answer to question 1 is "yes," and the answer to the second question is "no," what you are proposing is NOT a viable solution to manticores, and manticores are overpowered.

Question: Why is killing the manticore needed? It's fairly easy to neutralize the manticore while leaving it alive, with vanguard veterans deepstriking in and some storm shields so actually using the gun on them would be a huge waste of points. This the safest and cheapest way to deal with it. If it disengages, no firing and they can easily charge it again, it won't kill them in melee anytime soon, and if it gets a shot at them (failed first turn charge) it won't do much more than maybe kill one model. Desperation overwatch with the missles is even sadder.

If you want to kill it, you can run a thunder hammer on your sarge, maybe grab a melta bomb as well given it's pretty cheap. That'll reliably kill it in 2-3 turns, and the unit is at little to no risk from the manticore. Or, if you want to keep the price under the manticore, a normal assault squad can do the trick with a thunderhammer on the sarge and plasma pistols on 3 models. Riskier to be sure (particularly if you wanna go for the first turn overcharge) but it's under the price and can reliably take it out in 3-4 turns.

You've also got a few good chapter specific options. Blood angels can do combi melta+storm shield+company veterans+jump packs. That's probably the best option point wise, though deathwing knights look tempting. Also, most greyknight units can do something like the above assault squads, between daemon hammers and force falchions.

The biggest problem is finding anti tank that can get close without costing a fortune and drop pods cost a ton these days. Note that this is partially a SM issue, many armies have much easier access to counters (CSM has raptors and terminators for deepstriking melta goodness, tau has battlesuits with melta as always).

That and to defend the whole damn thing from a deep strike is somewhat of a waste. 300+ some points to get something that can shoot a few turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is like a laugh track or something whenever Traditio posts or is it just me?

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
That and to defend the whole damn thing from a deep strike is somewhat of a waste. 300+ some points to get something that can shoot a few turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is like a laugh track or something whenever Traditio posts or is it just me?

Don't mind me, Mr. Manticore. I'll just be sitting here on objectives with my infantry, winning the game.

There's a laugh track running after every line of text Traditio writes.