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In Rise of the Primarch, Roboute Guilliman and friends end up working together with Cypher and some of the Fallen that are working with him. Guilliman does realize that Cypher is a Son of the Lion and wonders about him. Of course, Cypher disappears at the end of the story, but I would still think that Guilliman might want to sit down with Azrael or somebody and start asking some rather sticky questions. The fact that Cypher was desperate to visit with the Emperor should really raise some red flags in Guilliman's mind, I would think, and would make him even more likely to want some answers from the Dark Angels.

My question is, do you think that they will cover this eventuality in the story? Maybe this will be connected to whatever event somehow brings back the Lion from his sleep and then he can tell his brother Bobby G all about the Fallen.

I foresee GW bringing the Lion back relatively soon to answer this very dilemma

I'd like to see some sort of internal conflict within the DA over it though, not the "and then the lion got out of bed and they lived happily ever after" that's more likely to happen.

 n0t_u wrote:
I'd like to see some sort of internal conflict within the DA over it though, not the "and then the lion got out of bed and they lived happily ever after" that's more likely to happen.

I'm sure there will be plenty of conflict either way; the Lion returning will only exacerbate the issue of secrecy with the DA and the Fallen, and will likely immediately put him at odds with Guilliman.

I’d love it if he just shrugged it off. “Part of your legion went over to chaos. News flash, it happened to all of us. And is old news. Now put on your big-boy pants and help save the Imperium."

I'd proffer the fluff shows most of these guys were pretty power hungry when it comes down to it. Any of them coming back will conflict with the New Emprah. But he has the power now so logically, it would be short and sharp.

 Frazzled wrote:
I'd proffer the fluff shows most of these guys were pretty power hungry when it comes down to it. Any of them coming back will conflict with the New Emprah. But he has the power now so logically, it would be short and sharp.

Yeah, the best way I could see of conflict working is for the new Primarch to pop up in the Dark Imperium and unite it.

'Saviour of the Dark Imperium' would come with a ton of political capitol. Enough to challenge Guilliman (who I understand hasn't managed that despite a 100 year crusade SuperMarines+1) for being the best leader for the Imperium.

'The Imperium needs a General, not an Accountant. Vote El'Johnson 41,257'.

keep in mind, outside of MAYBE the Lion, all the loyalist primarchs conceeded the rule of the IoM to Gulliman, while they all did their thing, even the Lion seems to have arrived on Terra beforeheading off to caliban, so Gulliman may have been running the show back then. it could thus result in the Lion coming back and the following conversation happening

The Lion> alright my sons so tell me what's been happening of note here.
Dark Angel> well Caliban blew up and we've spent the last ten thousand years hunting the fallen dark angels down. Ohh and Gulliman took control of the Empire.
The Lion> that last bit I know, it happened before I took my nap. I assume he's been running tyhings alright, the man was always good at the paper work of an empire.
Dark Angel> ohh no my lord, he only just came back himself, after being gravely unjured a few hundred years after the Heresy.
The Lion> Ohh. well then... wanna go kill that Abbaddon fella?

He travelled all the way from Macragge to Earth with Cypher and the Fallen alongside him. I think he's going to figure out something was going on.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
He travelled all the way from Macragge to Earth with Cypher and the Fallen alongside him. I think he's going to figure out something was going on.

He recognizes the Lion's Sword on Cypher on that trip. He knows that something is up.

 Nevelon wrote:
I’d love it if he just shrugged it off. “Part of your legion went over to chaos. News flash, it happened to all of us. And is old news. Now put on your big-boy pants and help save the Imperium."

This would be perfect. Why? Becuase then it just makes all the Lion's and DA's secrecy look foolish and a waste of effort.

Lion: Brother, I have to tell you my deepest darkest secret. I had to kill some of my own legion for turning heretic.

Guilliman: Seriously? Who didn't?

He got to talk to BiG E, so he could already know.

Everybody knows there is nothing Gulliman could "find out".

 SickSix wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
I’d love it if he just shrugged it off. “Part of your legion went over to chaos. News flash, it happened to all of us. And is old news. Now put on your big-boy pants and help save the Imperium."

This would be perfect. Why? Becuase then it just makes all the Lion's and DA's secrecy look foolish and a waste of effort.

Lion: Brother, I have to tell you my deepest darkest secret. I had to kill some of my own legion for turning heretic.

Guilliman: Seriously? Who didn't?

it's even worse when you realize the Lion wasn't the one keeping the secret, but it was the dark angels after the Lion went for a nap. it could be even worse.

the Lion could promptly wake up, look at the dark angels and go "........you went to HOW MUCH effort to keep something secret everyone proably already knew?!"

 SickSix wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
I’d love it if he just shrugged it off. “Part of your legion went over to chaos. News flash, it happened to all of us. And is old news. Now put on your big-boy pants and help save the Imperium."

This would be perfect. Why? Becuase then it just makes all the Lion's and DA's secrecy look foolish and a waste of effort.

Lion: Brother, I have to tell you my deepest darkest secret. I had to kill some of my own legion for turning heretic.

Guilliman: Seriously? Who didn't?

Lion: But maybe the part of the Legion that turned heretic is not the part you think it is...

I don't get why it's such a dark and terrible secret.

Lots of legions and chapters had traitors. Even Ultramarines. Why are they the only ones hiding it?

Maybe someone can answer this for me: Why did Cypher have the Lion's sword in the first place, and why was he so keen to see the Emperor? Was he intending to kill the Master of Mankind with the sword to free his soul to reincarnate so he's not tied to the golden throne anymore? That might just be the 'Terminus Decree' GK in me talking.

Bluebeard wrote:
I don't get why it's such a dark and terrible secret.

Lots of legions and chapters had traitors. Even Ultramarines. Why are they the only ones hiding it?

Because when the fluff was first written it was somethi g unique to the dark angels. Of all the loyalist chapters theirs was the only one divided.

Then more of the Heresy was expanded and it turns out there were traitors and loyalists from all the legions, but the Dark Angels' guilt thing was too entrenched in their backstory, so now it seems a bit silly for them to be so het up about it when previously it was completely justified.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Bluebeard wrote:
I don't get why it's such a dark and terrible secret.

Lots of legions and chapters had traitors. Even Ultramarines. Why are they the only ones hiding it?

Because when the fluff was first written it was somethi g unique to the dark angels. Of all the loyalist chapters theirs was the only one divided.

Then more of the Heresy was expanded and it turns out there were traitors and loyalists from all the legions, but the Dark Angels' guilt thing was too entrenched in their backstory, so now it seems a bit silly for them to be so het up about it when previously it was completely justified.

I'm far from an expert on the fluff, especially pertaining to the Horus Heresy era, but I expect that there were far fewer traitors from the other loyalist legions combined compared to the Dark Angels. Plus it was the Lion's right-hand man (Luther) who was the arch-traitor of the bunch. So it really is still justified somewhat that the Dark Angels hide what happened.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Bluebeard wrote:
I don't get why it's such a dark and terrible secret.

Lots of legions and chapters had traitors. Even Ultramarines. Why are they the only ones hiding it?

Because when the fluff was first written it was somethi g unique to the dark angels. Of all the loyalist chapters theirs was the only one divided.

Then more of the Heresy was expanded and it turns out there were traitors and loyalists from all the legions, but the Dark Angels' guilt thing was too entrenched in their backstory, so now it seems a bit silly for them to be so het up about it when previously it was completely justified.

I'm far from an expert on the fluff, especially pertaining to the Horus Heresy era, but I expect that there were far fewer traitors from the other loyalist legions combined compared to the Dark Angels. Plus it was the Lion's right-hand man (Luther) who was the arch-traitor of the bunch. So it really is still justified somewhat that the Dark Angels hide what happened.

I agree with the notion that the DA seem to be more fractured as a result of the Heresy than other loyalist legions, and it would make sense to be embarrassed about that fact even if they bounced back in the present day. Sort of a case of 'the legion that came closest to turning traitor but didn't actually'...

they also lost their homeworld to chaos revolt. I can't think of ANY other loyalist legion that can make that claim

BrianDavion wrote:
they also lost their homeworld to chaos revolt. I can't think of ANY other loyalist legion that can make that claim

Very true; I can only imagine how things will go once the Lion returns.

Its not just that they had several orders of magnitude more traitors than other loyalists, its that they hid it from the imperium and have been this whole time. That they have been covering it up for so long could cause more fallout than the actual event (we see this in real-world politics all the time, even).

Hopefully they Dark Angels split off as their own faction, would make sense fluff wise; they are traitor hating traitors IMO.

 Rippy wrote:
Hopefully they Dark Angels split off as their own faction, would make sense fluff wise; they are traitor hating traitors IMO.

The best kind of traitor!

I prefer the notion that the Unforgiven are the real traitors, attacking their now-Fallen brethren led by Luther whilst believing that the Lion had gone to Chaos, leading to the destruction of Caliban and the Lion's current state. I like to think that the biggest, darkest secret of the Dark Angels - the secret that the upper Inner Circle know - is that they just don't know, and they never knew, what the Lion's loyalty was.

It makes sense for the zealotry displayed by the Unforgiven, the relentless pursuit of any and all traces of the truth, and their ruthlessness with dealing with the Fallen. It's not that they want to find the truth, it's that they want to silence anything that contradicts their belief that the Lion was always loyal, that Luther was always the traitor. Their brutal interrogation methods and secrecy aren't about keeping hidden the fact that much of the Legion went traitor, but about drowning out their own fears and shame over exactly which side went traitor. Their intense themes of shame and redemption don't really work unless they themselves were the traitors.

The Dark Angels won't be happy until they find every single Fallen Angel and force them to tell not the truth, but what they want to hear. Plus, the plight of the Fallen is much more unique and interesting as something more involved than "they went to Chaos and are bitter about it".

 Aetare wrote:
Maybe someone can answer this for me: Why did Cypher have the Lion's sword in the first place, and why was he so keen to see the Emperor? Was he intending to kill the Master of Mankind with the sword to free his soul to reincarnate so he's not tied to the golden throne anymore? That might just be the 'Terminus Decree' GK in me talking.

Cypher was given the sword by the Lion when he found him "dying" before the Watchers spirited him away.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I prefer the notion that the Unforgiven are the real traitors, attacking their now-Fallen brethren led by Luther whilst believing that the Lion had gone to Chaos, leading to the destruction of Caliban and the Lion's current state. I like to think that the biggest, darkest secret of the Dark Angels - the secret that the upper Inner Circle know - is that they just don't know, and they never knew, what the Lion's loyalty was.

It makes sense for the zealotry displayed by the Unforgiven, the relentless pursuit of any and all traces of the truth, and their ruthlessness with dealing with the Fallen. It's not that they want to find the truth, it's that they want to silence anything that contradicts their belief that the Lion was always loyal, that Luther was always the traitor. Their brutal interrogation methods and secrecy aren't about keeping hidden the fact that much of the Legion went traitor, but about drowning out their own fears and shame over exactly which side went traitor. Their intense themes of shame and redemption don't really work unless they themselves were the traitors.

The Dark Angels won't be happy until they find every single Fallen Angel and force them to tell not the truth, but what they want to hear. Plus, the plight of the Fallen is much more unique and interesting as something more involved than "they went to Chaos and are bitter about it".

Except we already know everything about what happened to the First Legion and Luther's mini-heresy, for years, and none of that's true.

Keep in mind, it's not just the betrayal, the Fallen's perspective on the war on Caliban highly suggests that it was the Lion who had fallen to Chaos. Additionally, the prisoners the Dark Angels have would hold significant interest for the Inquisition, who in their (somewhat understandable) paranoia would most likely view the entire chapter as tainted and thus, destroy them.

Even if this didn't happen, other Imperial armed forces may, upon learning of the unresolved nature of the treachery, may refuse to assist the Dark Angels in campaigns.

It also implicates any successors of the Dark Angels, whom are known to have secretive ties back to their parent chapter.

Essentially, the backlash and consequences would be catastrophic for the Imperium, but even moreso for the Dark Angels.

In the 41st Millennium, shooting first and asking questions later is par the course.

except now that we're getting a clear look at it, the fallen's prespective isn't so much that the Lion had fallen to chaos, as the Lion was the traitor. and that he ahd betrayed not the IoM, but had betrayed CALIBAN

It would be interesting if the Lion fell to Chaos after the heresy ended -or at least seemed like he did- by having begun to openly/apparently plot against Roboute as the head of the Imperium, looking to sieze It for himself. The DA having just been through a mini civil war and having cought the nightlords and having been late to Terra couldnt deal, and put him into stasis.

It would be a great secret.

Dark Angels had about 30'000 Marines fall, out of ~200'000, according to Forgeworld.

15% is quite big, but its not all that out there compared to the others.

It's just that since Forgeworld started expanding the story, there are inconsistencies.