Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DanielFM wrote:

 Khaine wrote:
Shadow Spectres are great, I'd argue the easily strongest of all Aspects this edition. The fact that they all have to ability to fire what is essentially a Heavy Flamer is extremely nasty. A unit of 6 will put on an average of 21 strength 5 Ap -1 hits with overwatch. In addition, they average 9 strength 6 Ap -3 hits at 18" range with the prism rifle fire. They make Warp Spiders look like a complete joke for +1 ppm.

Maybe that's why many people keep considering FW rules unbalanced against the core game?

I think people are more referring to Titans and Superheavies then small infantry units like Shadow Spectres. They've been pretty bad in all their past rules incarnations so its nice to see them good. The positive comparison with Warp Spiders/other Aspects I think is more reflective of the aspects being very weak this edition rather than the Spectres being overpowered.

Shadow Spectres.

3 models. May at up to two more.

But in the summary part it says unit size 3-10.

Any news which is the correct?

So played a few games today with a 1500 ynnari list. Was very impressed.

My list
Eldrad
Yvraine

2x 11 guardians with shuriken cannon
10 guardians with bright lance

10 warp spiders
6 shining spears

Hemlock

Night spinner

Soulburst backed with psychic is super good. Getting multiple uses out of guide and ancestors grace a turn is really good. And doom with focused fire almost guarantees a dead unit for soulburst. Everything is short range anyway so the soulburst is easy to be within range.

The hemlock was super impressive. With conceal up it is a massive fire sponge plus can run with the spears and spiders to conceal them as well easily.
The shining spears were very impressive as well. They were surprisingly resilient and a great target for ancestors grace for reroll 1s to all attacks. Their short range and rate of fire means they will soulburst more often then not. In one game managed to advance up turn 1 to shoot down a blight drone allowing them to soulburst and charge into a nearby predator, half killing it too.

 DanielFM wrote:

 Khaine wrote:
Shadow Spectres are great, I'd argue the easily strongest of all Aspects this edition. The fact that they all have to ability to fire what is essentially a Heavy Flamer is extremely nasty. A unit of 6 will put on an average of 21 strength 5 Ap -1 hits with overwatch. In addition, they average 9 strength 6 Ap -3 hits at 18" range with the prism rifle fire. They make Warp Spiders look like a complete joke for +1 ppm.

Maybe that's why many people keep considering FW rules unbalanced against the core game?

Well, Warp Spiders are complete puke, so being better than them isn't unbalanced.

what is your take on Shadow Spectres from FW ?

Wyldcarde wrote:
So played a few games today with a 1500 ynnari list. Was very impressed.

My list
Eldrad
Yvraine

2x 11 guardians with shuriken cannon
10 guardians with bright lance

10 warp spiders
6 shining spears

Hemlock

Night spinner

Soulburst backed with psychic is super good. Getting multiple uses out of guide and ancestors grace a turn is really good. And doom with focused fire almost guarantees a dead unit for soulburst. Everything is short range anyway so the soulburst is easy to be within range.

The hemlock was super impressive. With conceal up it is a massive fire sponge plus can run with the spears and spiders to conceal them as well easily.
The shining spears were very impressive as well. They were surprisingly resilient and a great target for ancestors grace for reroll 1s to all attacks. Their short range and rate of fire means they will soulburst more often then not. In one game managed to advance up turn 1 to shoot down a blight drone allowing them to soulburst and charge into a nearby predator, half killing it too.

This is very similar to my 1.5k list, except I run the guardians in Wave Serpents instead of he warp spiders and shining spears.

Eldrad/Yvraine combo is definitely going to be very potent like you said.

Now all I need to do is find a good "counts-as" Yvraine model as I don't like unhelmed minis.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:

 Khaine wrote:
Shadow Spectres are great, I'd argue the easily strongest of all Aspects this edition. The fact that they all have to ability to fire what is essentially a Heavy Flamer is extremely nasty. A unit of 6 will put on an average of 21 strength 5 Ap -1 hits with overwatch. In addition, they average 9 strength 6 Ap -3 hits at 18" range with the prism rifle fire. They make Warp Spiders look like a complete joke for +1 ppm.

Maybe that's why many people keep considering FW rules unbalanced against the core game?

Well, Warp Spiders are complete puke, so being better than them isn't unbalanced.

How are they puke? Sure they aren't as good as 7th but they needed to be toned down. A squad of 10 has done a chunk of heavy lifting for me. Between a 2+ save in cover and -2 to hit from flickerjump and conceal makes them difficult to kill. And 22 Str 6 shots, albeit at close range, is nasty. Especially when they can soulburst to do it twice or warpjump away 4d6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would strongly suggest at least trying out one if not both of them in the army. They do a ton of heavy lifting in the army and are my first 2 soulburst targets every time. I find my guardians generally get ignored anyway as my opponent is more concerned with the other 3 big threats.

Haven't Played a game since 2nd edition, but looking to get back in the game. Nice to see all factions at a somewhat even playing field.

I'm planning a 2000pt Craftworld list that hits hard and fast and hopefully be able to take on all comers (hordes, tank swarms ect..)

This list is based on 3 concepts..
1) SPEED
With the exception of one guardian squad, all units are highly mobile. I want to dictate the pace and decide the matchups for each game. My plan is to concentrate force on one flank at a time using my superior mobility so that I can always have local superiority. This is especially true against horde armies.

2) MORTAL WOUND SPAM
Having the ability to spam alot of mortal wounds will be important for this list. Three Wave serpent shields, the Farseer casting smite, 8 Swooping hawks (6+ on a fly over), and Lord Baharoth (4+ on up to 3 dice on fly over)...Mortal wounds becomes pretty impressive.

3)HARD HITTING
in addition to speed, The list is hard hitting IMO.
Anti-Armor
3 Twin linked bright lances
5 Laser lances + 1 Star lance
mortal wounds
5 D-scythes
also Doom will help here..

anti-horde
9 Shuriken cannons,
6 twin linked shuricats
30 guardian defenders
8 swooping hawks at 4 shots each

CC
The shining spears on the charge can really put a hurt on vehicles or tought infantry
The solitaire is also a beast in combat. I will be using him as a sort of assasin to target buffing characters. He ignores cover and models when moving. bye bye bubble wrap.

Please let me know your thoughts. I feel as thought I have most things covered here... Would have loved to have a 2nd psyker but could not fit another in and have the solitaire as well. Any concerns about the list versus some army builds?

What's everyone thinking for wraithlord loadouts? I want to add them and a unit of wraithguard to my mainly harlequin army.

Shuriken Cannons and sword all the way, or if taking multiples worth grabbing a few Lances or starcannons?

So what are people thoughts on hornets?

For 145 you get 6 S6 -3 D2 shots with bio degrading profile.

I do think they might be a bit expensive, but have great damage output is guided.

Shadow spectres I think are great, the -1 to hit, the speed and the 2+ in cover are good if you add the S6 shots that with guide can turn out to be like 24 hits

>> What's everyone thinking for wraithlord loadouts? I want to add them and a unit of wraithguard to my mainly harlequin army.

They are pretty slow even with increased move, especially for supporting something like clowns. I think a Spearhead just armed with swords for cheapest points might be interesting though.

>> So what are people thoughts on hornets?
They seem like the only way aside from Night Spinner for Eldar to spam D2. Although idea of fast skimmers acting as plasma turrets sitting back '48 makes me cringe.

melbards wrote:
Please let me know your thoughts. I feel as thought I have most things covered here... Would have loved to have a 2nd psyker but could not fit another in and have the solitaire as well. Any concerns about the list versus some army builds?

I would try it out as a ynnari force instead of craftworld. The majority of your units are short ranged so should benefit from soulburst easily for extra activations, which will be worth a lot more than battle focus over the course of the game.
I would find some points to max out the swooping hawks and also find points for a bright lance on the foot slogging unit. That way it can camp rear objectives but still crank out shots against some high priority targets?
I'd consider dropping down One of the wave serpents to just dual cannons?

 Shadenuat wrote:
>> What's everyone thinking for wraithlord loadouts? I want to add them and a unit of wraithguard to my mainly harlequin army.

They are pretty slow even with increased move, especially for supporting something like clowns. I think a Spearhead just armed with swords for cheapest points might be interesting though.

>> So what are people thoughts on hornets?
They seem like the only way aside from Night Spinner for Eldar to spam D2. Although idea of fast skimmers acting as plasma turrets sitting back '48 makes me cringe.

I don't think Wraithlords are slow. Give them Shuriken Cannons and they can advance and shoot if needed. Average 11.5" move first turn and shoot 24", second turn average 15" range to get into combat (if needed) seems pretty decent to me

I like to keep my Wraithlords cheap and simple- I just finished a game yesterday with Ynnari that was planned to be 1000 points but we changed it to 1500 at the last minute. For 489 points I added a Wraithseer and three Wraithlords with glaives to my list, even got +1 command point for doing so. They were very solid as a second wave after my beasts made it to the enemy lines. The Wraithseer is great, I was casting the ignore wounds on a 6 power on the lord that was likely to get shot and then actually needed the reroll charges power in order to turn a failed charge into a successful one. The lords filled in what the rest of my army couldn't quite do by taking Overwatch fire and assaulting (and smashing) enemy characters. For two straight character kills I waited until one of the attacks made it through an invulnerable save and used a CP to reroll the damage to a high enough number to kill the character.

I didn't think 3 attacks on the charge would be very good but now that you're hitting everything on 3+, including the high WS combat specialist characters that used to require a 5+, it's actually likely that one or two of those attacks get through and with D6 damage you only need one to take out most lesser characters.

I'm now contemplating a Spiritseer to accompany them based on how well they performed. It was difficult to justify using a psychic power on a single model with 3 attacks to help out with hit rolls, but adding an aura for 2 or more units would really make these guys consistently destructive.

If i were an Iyanden player I would feel very excited for the potential of a spirit host army.

So seeing shadow spectres rules I really rate them. Warp spiders with conceal and flickerjump take some killing with -2 to hit and the spectres get that also.
Was think a list with spiders, spectres, swooping hawks, warlock on jetbike, hemlock and eldrad/farseer and yvraine with a 10 man guardian squad bodyguard would be a solid foundation for a list. With spiders and spectres in a hemlocks conceal bubble they are at -2 to hit with swooping hawks handing out an additional -1 to hit. All highly mobile. Guide on one unit of ghosts and ancestors word on the other means you should consistently get 20+ shots a turn from each unit. Soulburst to do it again. Close combat will be the main weakness but at least everything has fly so it won't be locked down. Plus you have 40 shots per hawk squad for the hoards armies. Could be viable.

check out the indexes for matched play for understrength units.

Seems like if you want to take just 1 Howling Banshee exarch in her own unit or 1 DA Exarch with DireSword or even better 1 Dark Reaper with shuriken Cannon for 17 points you are permited to do that AND only pay the actual cost of your model+weapons

It looks that way, but you can only take one unit in that manner. This does open up some interesting possibilities for units with 'buffs'.

A 9-point Wych provides No Escape.
A 20-point Ranger denies enemy reserves moving within 9" on turn one.
A 17-point Swooping Hawk Exarch adds +1 Ld to other units within 3".

 admironheart wrote:
check out the indexes for matched play for understrength units.

Seems like if you want to take just 1 Howling Banshee exarch in her own unit or 1 DA Exarch with DireSword or even better 1 Dark Reaper with shuriken Cannon for 17 points you are permited to do that AND only pay the actual cost of your model+weapons

You are reading it wrong. It says you must pay the points cost as if it had a minimum sized unit, even though it contains fewer models.
Otherwise it would be too abuseable.

Wyldcarde wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
check out the indexes for matched play for understrength units.

Seems like if you want to take just 1 Howling Banshee exarch in her own unit or 1 DA Exarch with DireSword or even better 1 Dark Reaper with shuriken Cannon for 17 points you are permited to do that AND only pay the actual cost of your model+weapons

You are reading it wrong. It says you must pay the points cost as if it had a minimum sized unit, even though it contains fewer models.
Otherwise it would be too abuseable.

The rulebook says if you're using points values then you must pay the price of a minimum sized unit. There is an additional rule in the index books when creating an army that, in Matched Play, you may take less than a minimum-sized unit and only pay the points for those models. It can't be abused because you can only do this once per type of unit.

 Oaka wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
check out the indexes for matched play for understrength units.

Seems like if you want to take just 1 Howling Banshee exarch in her own unit or 1 DA Exarch with DireSword or even better 1 Dark Reaper with shuriken Cannon for 17 points you are permited to do that AND only pay the actual cost of your model+weapons

You are reading it wrong. It says you must pay the points cost as if it had a minimum sized unit, even though it contains fewer models.
Otherwise it would be too abuseable.

The rulebook says if you're using points values then you must pay the price of a minimum sized unit. There is an additional rule in the index books when creating an army that, in Matched Play, you may take less than a minimum-sized unit and only pay the points for those models. It can't be abused because you can only do this once per type of unit.

Define type...

The amount of abuse this sees is entirely dependant on the definition of a unit's type. Infantry/Vehicle? Guardians/Dire Avengers/Wraithguard? Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy Support? Space Marine/Aeldari/Drukhari/Necron? Ynnari/Ulthwe/Iyanden?

Well no matter how you define it there can't be doubles of whatever it is you're trying to do. I think it's neat, opens up some other options. You can actually run an Avatar and Court of the Young King this way with individual exarchs.

So this is more a Yanari question but I've been playing with the idea of running a group of wraith guard in a Dark elder Raider and shooting from the open top vehicle since it moves faster(parading my D-weapons around the field) while having some dark reapers in Starweavers to rain mobile death on the outskirts.

I have some banshees and harlequin troupes to run interference. I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on open top vehicles being used as heavy weapon platforms or is it too risky

That would be hilarious. Might be a little easy to pop though, what with T5, W10 and Sv4+... A couple of lucky AT weapons will cripple it, and Heavy Bolter equivalents are legit threats to it.

even with them all sharing the Ynari keywords does the actual rules permit the other groups from now jumping onto the others' transports?

Can't find anything that says they can't.

Shhh... it's 4 am, a'ight. Page 56 of Index: Xenos 1, under Raider: "This model can transport 10 Incubi or Drukhari Infantry models."

To bypass similar restrictions, you need the rule "Ynnead's Will" (Page 76). This is only held by The Visarch and Yvraine.

Going back the main codex, I am mulling over our melee options. Wraithblades with Swords look like the most effective of the Eldar's melee units. The Axe and Shield Wraithblades are hugely expensive, Banshees and fragile and struggle to wound without Doom, Scorpions are not especially points effective.

However, I think I may be underestimating the value of melee units in Wave Serpents in 8th now that we can charge on the same turn we disembark. The Wave Serpent is incredibly durable, pretty fast and very shooty. Banshees etc can disembark 3", make their normal 8" move and then assault with an extra 3". This gives them an average 21" threat range for the starting point of the Wave Serpent which is not bad at all (26" max).

People tend to make complain that units can just retreat from assault units in transports and while that is true up to a point, it means that they are backing themselves out of Rapid Fire range, giving themselves a -1 to hit on the their heavy weapons, moving off objectives and still not backing away as fast as the Wave Serpent can advance. I am planning to test Banshees in a Serpent as I feel we may be underestimating them. Don't forget we can now add a cheap Warlock with Enhance/Drain to give them a bit of an edge in combat.

The real trick with Banshees is not to assault in the centre of the enemy's lines. You target will disengage and their buddies will shoot you up. Attack on the flanks and either use the Wave Serpent to eat overwatch or charge an adjacent unit to prevent them shooting. Serpents can disengage and shoot without penalty thanks to the FLY keyword.

Shining Spears are the best Craftworld assault unit. Although it's mostly because of how good they are at shooting.

 Karhedron wrote:
Banshees etc can disembark 3", make their normal 8" move and then assault with an extra 3". This gives them an average 21" threat range for the starting point of the Wave Serpent which is not bad at all (26" max).

Even though Banshees can charge 15" possibly, they can still only declare a charge against a unit within 12". It may come up frequently enough to worth mentioning.

At least at max they can get to do some wraparound of the target

 Oaka wrote:
Well no matter how you define it there can't be doubles of whatever it is you're trying to do. I think it's neat, opens up some other options. You can actually run an Avatar and Court of the Young King this way with individual exarchs.

I had a whole post rambling about how is it possible for you to think that, but I actually found it and it does say "In matched play games, you only pay the points for models you actually have in an under-stregth unit"

Still, I can't believe people is thinking of abusing this. Most units are sold nowadays as a set, or where sold as 5 but now they are 3-6. I am a hardcore tournament player, and happy to play against the cheesiest lists, but I highly doubt this would be allowed in any tournament, and if you tried doing that to me in a friendly, I would immediately look for someone else in the club to play with.