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I have a large number of Eldar Flyers - 3 Crimson Hunters (2 of them exarchs), a Hemlock, 3 Phoenixes, a Vampire and a DE Razorwing. Any weapon options are magnetized (including the pulsars on the Vampire to use it as a Raider or Hunter). Would a flyer-heavy airforce be doable? Losing jink and snapshots hurt all flyers. I've toyed with at least 70% airforce in a 2000 point army, with the rest being objective grabbers. How feasible would this be?

An Air Wing of Crimson Hunters would be excellent anti-tank up to 2000 pts, and Air Wing of Hemlocks is a very threatening thing to face. However, I think including more than 6 flyers would be an overkill, as you will struggle against large infantry armies. You won't be able to grab objectives from them since by new rules the objective is held by player who has more models on the objective.

kaintxu wrote:
So what are people thoughts on hornets?

I'm a fan. 18 S6 AP-3 2 damage shots per turn will put the hurt on anything. Even moreso with psyker support.

 Marsyas wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So what are people thoughts on hornets?

I'm a fan. 18 S6 AP-3 2 damage shots per turn will put the hurt on anything. Even moreso with psyker support.

How survivable for the points though?

Gibs55 wrote:

 Marsyas wrote:

kaintxu wrote:
So what are people thoughts on hornets?

I'm a fan. 18 S6 AP-3 2 damage shots per turn will put the hurt on anything. Even moreso with psyker support.

How survivable for the points though?

Woah need to slow this down.

First should note that the cost of a pulse hornet is a whopping 150 pts assuming you add the targeting matrix (which note, only works if its the closest enemy unit). Otherwise.. every weapon option except for shurikan cannons, is a heavy weapon.. so you are hitting on 4+ when you move. And further.. if you advance to activate your ability.. you can't shoot at all! So this single hornet is tossing 6 shots.. with 3 hits. s6.. so against other transports.. heck lets say another hornet.. your doing 1-2 wounds.. they will get atleast a 6+ save.. so you are going to do about 2-4 damage. That is not that great...

The 18 shots... that is 450 points you are talking about. 2 hemlocks put out better firepower at the 2D level and cost 422.

I love hornets.. amazing models.. very disappointed in the cost of the pulse simply because of the rage of 7ed. I am going to try running Shurikan hornets as a tankier alternative to windriders. they clock in at a 109 pts.. which is not too expensive for what you are getting when compared to vypers and windriders.

my 2cents of course. I hope they prove better than I see them on paper!

What page does it say you only pay for the models in an understrength unit? Thanks.

xmbk wrote:
What page does it say you only pay for the models in an understrength unit? Thanks.

On all the indices under BattleForged Armies. I think Xenos1 is page 108 and page 198 on Imperium 1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those are rules ONLY for BattleForged Armies IN a Matched Play game...Not in Narrative/Historical or certain Missions. So you have to be bound by Matched Play rules (ie pskers)

I'm stuck between a few variations of 1 list and would really appreciate some help. The only model I have assembled is the vampire hunter but I own 9 unbuilt bikes and an unbuilt bikeseer

Farseer Skyrunner (spear, guide, doom) 178
3×3 corsair cloud dancers (3 splinter cannons) 126×3
2× nightwing 145×2
Phoenix (twin star cannons) 224
Vampire Hunter 930

Comes to 2000 flat.

Farseer Skyrunner (spear, guide, doom) 178
3×3 Windriders (3 shuriken cannons) 96×3
2× crimson hunters 183
Hemlock wraithfighter (conceal / reveal) 211
Vampire Hunter 930

Comes out to 1973 so I've got points but no idea what to do with them.

A third idea is as follows

Autarch Skyrunner 104
Warlock Skyrunner (conceal / reveal) 87
3×3 Windriders (shuriken cannons) 96×3
2× crimson hunters 183×2
Phoenix (starcannons) 224
Vampire Hunter 930

Comes to 1999 i lose out on guide but buff the bikes a lot more I also have slightly more anti infantry but less than the corsair list.

Lastly

Autarch Skyrunner 104
3×3 Windriders (3 shuriken cannons) 96×3
Crimson Hunter Exarch (twin starcannons) 243
Hemlock wraithfighter (conceal / reveal) 211
Phoenix (twin starcannons) 224
Vampire Hunter 930

Also comes out to 2000 flat has the weakest hq in terms of buffs and fighting strongest flier combination I think.

All lists give the same 5 command points. I'm not sure how valuable a farseer is doom seems great for the bikes and while I would like to guide the vampire I want to be moving him 45" a turn to get the 4++ so it could be very hard to do so.

I feel the main contenders are list 1 and list 4. 1 brings I think the most anti horde but I pay a lot for the troops. 4 brings probably better all around fliers with a lot of the nice starcannons to boot, better vs elite infantry but weaker vs a horde.

What would be the better choice as all I have left to buy are the non super heavy fliers for either list.

Hello all,

I am looking to start Warhammer 40k with Eldar.

As such, I am looking to put together an Eldar Armylist of about 500pts to start before purchasing any minis.

I've combed through this thread, and come to the conclusion of the following;

1) The current Eldar Start Collecting! set is not very good in 8th Edition.
2) I need Wave Serpents.

As such; I've put together the following rough list, but I am still missing a few points and I would appreciate any feedback you can give me as to how to fill up the remaining points.

113 - Farseer w/ Wtichblade
80 - 10x Guardians
80 - 10x Guardians
143 - Wave Serpent w/ Triple Shuriken Cannon

This however only puts me at about 416 pts, and I would appreciate any suggestions as to how to fill the last 84 points.

Thank you very much.

The start collecting box is still fine. Windrinders are still good just not omg amazing. The Fire prism can be made into a nightspinner which is quite good in this edition. And farseers are great.
From your initial list you can always just upgrade one of the guardian units to one of the aspects you like and throw it in the wave serpent. Or drop the second guardian squad and take a night spinner? Might need some more points for that tho.

 Kakutodani wrote:

I've combed through this thread, and come to the conclusion of the following;

1) The current Eldar Start Collecting! set is not very good in 8th Edition.
2) I need Wave Serpents.

3) Wraithguard of all flavours rock!

3 wounds a piece behind T5 and a 3+ save makes them hard to shift without the kind of firepower that your opponent would normally rather be aiming at your grav tanks. I prefer D-Scythes over Wraithcannons as they are more flexible. They are almost as good against large targets and far better against infantry. The Overwatch from D-scythes is terrifying and often enough to stop people charging you in the first place. Wraithguard are also "Implacable" meaning they can withdraw from combat and still shoot at full effect which is awesome given their guns.

Wraithblades are pretty tasty too. Swords will chop through multiple targets while the axe/shield unit almost rival TH/SS Terminators.

 Kakutodani wrote:

113 - Farseer w/ Wtichblade
80 - 10x Guardians
80 - 10x Guardians
143 - Wave Serpent w/ Triple Shuriken Cannon

This however only puts me at about 416 pts, and I would appreciate any suggestions as to how to fill the last 84 points.

War Walkers are really nice. 6 Wounds behind T6 and a 4+/5++ save is great. Add in Battle Focus which is handy on the Shuricannon version and they are very fast.

A War walker with 2 Shuricannons comes to 85 points annoyingly. I can't see any way to trim off the extra point unless you downgrade your Farseer to an Autarch.

I have found so far that Guardians are good if you give them a Shuricannon and micromanage their movement. Get in just the right place at the right time to really get in someone's face.

Shuriken weapons are surprisingly dangerous.

Titanicus wrote:I'm stuck between a few variations of 1 list and would really appreciate some help....

So straight up i can tell you love your airforce, which is cool. Keep in mind though that, it is going to be incredibly difficult to win objective games with units that cannot stick to one location, and are somewhat limited in movement. @2k points I think having 2 flyers is probably a good amount, and 3 is probably ok. If you bring a vampire raider, i would almost consider that be your only flyer, and round out the rest of you list.

I know that doesn't answer your question of which list below is best, but hopefully it helps to some degree.

Kakutodani wrote:Hello all, I am looking to start Warhammer 40k with Eldar....

I really like the start collecting box. I think that is probalby one of the best values when starting an eldar army. Both the nightspinner and fire prism are great. Both slightly different tools in the toolbox. If that is where you are looking to start. You can basically fill out 450 points easy (Seer, 3 bikes, Prism) depending on upgrades. Getting that extra few points could be as easy as buying another box for another bike.

If you are looking for a more footslogging force. Guardians are great as others have said. and to fill out the list you constructed, you could add some weapons platforms to fill those couple extra points left. Addtionally I would consider dropping the serpant and running a Fire prism or Nightspinner, heck maybe even Falcon. Just to increase your high damage weapon output.

Welcome to the club, and this edition is a great place to start Eldar, because we finally aren't the bring eldar to win army like we used to be (albeit still strong!)

The Fire Prism is one of the Eldar's worst AT units, even Guardians do a better job if you can get them in range...

 Selym wrote:
The Fire Prism is one of the Eldar's worst AT units, even Guardians do a better job if you can get them in range...

Why do you think so? The prism has a few things going for it that make it good (imo of course).

1) Range - one of the longest ranged weapons we have, it can sit in the backfield in safety and be a threat over the course of the game.
2) Flexible weapon, the multi profile makes it decent across a range of targets, which some dedicated models struggle with.
3) s12 (wounds the average transport on a 2+) ap-5 (most vehicles will not have any save, including the land raider!)

My thoughts on the subject anyway. Would love to hear what your thoughts are !

 Selym wrote:
I have found so far that Guardians are good if you give them a Shuricannon and micromanage their movement. Get in just the right place at the right time to really get in someone's face.

Shuriken weapons are surprisingly dangerous.

I have found them effective in my early games although these are at small points values. A Warlock with Conceal/Reveal is cheap and helps a lot. A Farseer Dooming the target will boost them even more but then the same can be said of more or less anything.

For 80 points base, they fill your Troop tax fairly painlessly and make a good cargo for a Wave Serpent. I am not convinced by weapon platforms if you are going down the mech route as they will not be able to fire a lot of the time. If you have points to spare then a Shuricannon is nice but if points are tight I would rather pimp their ride. Gaurdians on foot do well with platforms though.

Rangers also worked well in early games. My opponent was running a Gravis Captain but I still managed to plink a few wounds off him as well as shooting at regular squads in the absence of other targets. I think that Rangers are best in small games though where they can be deployed in a way to maximise their range advantage. I suspect that in larger games, they would die quite quickly.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Selym wrote:
The Fire Prism is one of the Eldar's worst AT units, even Guardians do a better job if you can get them in range...

Why do you think so? The prism has a few things going for it that make it good (imo of course).

1) Range - one of the longest ranged weapons we have, it can sit in the backfield in safety and be a threat over the course of the game.
2) Flexible weapon, the multi profile makes it decent across a range of targets, which some dedicated models struggle with.
3) s12 (wounds the average transport on a 2+) ap-5 (most vehicles will not have any save, including the land raider!)

My thoughts on the subject anyway. Would love to hear what your thoughts are !

1) It doesn't matter very much that the Fire Prism can sit back in relative safety. First, just because it's one of the only units the Eldar have that can do this, you're going to have to be advancing with all of your other stuff anyway. You can't really make like Guard and use your artillery to force the enemy to come to you. So they'll just shoot your other stuff. Second, the Fire Prism has very low firepower for its cost and so the correct answer to it is just to ignore it, so having long range is not a big advantage. It's 168 points minimum for something that against most tanks is only a little better than a Lascannon, with the option to instead shoot something that's somewhat worse than two Starcannons against single-wound models.

2) I've not done the math but I bet that a twin Starcannon Serpent matches or beats it against basically everything, while being a lot more durable, and that's not even a very good Serpent build. The Prism Cannon's Lance mode will almost never offer a significant benefit over the Focused mode, except I guess against Wave Serpents, and the Focused mode is only ever just as good as a twin Starcannon against T7 and T8. The Dispersed mode is just worse than a twin Starcannon against everything, and much worse against multi-wound models.

3) Just to be clear, the Lance mode is only 5% better than the Focused mode against a Land Raider and 13% worse against a Razorback. It's true that it's 10% better against T6 3+, which is starting to look noticeable. The only thing that really seems to justify its existence as a separate profile is its performance against T6 2+ with no invulnerable save (about 30% better).

So basically: Why not just bring a Crimson Hunter, which is better against basically anything, can move and shoot at 3+ from 36" (although it's competitive with the Prism against many targets even at 48"), re-rolls wounds against flyers, and is as or more durable except against BS3+ S6?

I would agree that the Fire Prism is pants. But the Night Spinner seems really good. Ideal against light vehicles and 2w models but decent against pretty much everything.

Dionysodorus wrote:
2) I've not done the math but I bet that a twin Starcannon Serpent matches or beats it against basically everything, while being a lot more durable, and that's not even a very good Serpent build. The Prism Cannon's Lance mode will almost never offer a significant benefit over the Focused mode, except I guess against Wave Serpents, and the Focused mode is only ever just as good as a twin Starcannon against T7 and T8. The Dispersed mode is just worse than a twin Starcannon against everything, and much worse against multi-wound models.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/eldar-weapons-in-40k-8th-ed/

Twin Starcannon does, in fact, beat all Prism Cannon modes. Though I'd argue based on those listings Twin Starcannon is a good Serpent build if the Wave Serpent is going for T5+.

Yeah saw that chart before, pretty awesome work. I wish he did more with BS modifiers to see the effect on some of the shorter range heavy weapons.

@Dionysodorus - All good points mate. starcannon is finally a solid weapon. and the serpent being such a cheap platform for what you get seems to be the fallback answer on just about everything. When in doubt take a twin star serpent. ... probably shouldnt be the case. I recall when the leaks came out their was a large debate on the cost of the serpent being a typo 107 -> 170 (i disagree.. but i do feel the serpent is a little on the cheap side)

 Karhedron wrote:

War Walkers are really nice. 6 Wounds behind T6 and a 4+/5++ save is great. Add in Battle Focus which is handy on the Shuricannon version and they are very fast.

A War walker with 2 Shuricannons comes to 85 points annoyingly. I can't see any way to trim off the extra point unless you downgrade your Farseer to an Autarch.

War walkers are a weird spot in the list. Yes, the invulnerable save is nice, and a single one as an 80-90 point filler isn't terrible.

But... sadly in numbers they (and vipers, which are worse about this) lose out mathematically to wave serpents. 3 war walkers with Shuricannons are less than 30 points from 2 wave serpents with a trio of Shuricannons, so same amount of firepower, lower toughness, lower save, much fewer wounds, and no serpent shield, and the serpents are effectively slotless, given the way transports work.


Given the weapon options, the 8th ed. answer to Vypers, Warwalkers, Falcons, Fire prisms and possibly even Night Spinners* is effectively 'Why not wave serpent(s)?'

*though granted twin missile launchers are much lower strength than doomweavers in sunburst mode. The math of twin starshot vs Doomweaver is potentially interesting though.

 Grizzyzz wrote:


Woah need to slow this down.

First should note that the cost of a pulse hornet is a whopping 150 pts assuming you add the targeting matrix (which note, only works if its the closest enemy unit). Otherwise.. every weapon option except for shurikan cannons, is a heavy weapon.. so you are hitting on 4+ when you move. And further.. if you advance to activate your ability.. you can't shoot at all! So this single hornet is tossing 6 shots.. with 3 hits. s6.. so against other transports.. heck lets say another hornet.. your doing 1-2 wounds.. they will get atleast a 6+ save.. so you are going to do about 2-4 damage. That is not that great...

The 18 shots... that is 450 points you are talking about. 2 hemlocks put out better firepower at the 2D level and cost 422.

I love hornets.. amazing models.. very disappointed in the cost of the pulse simply because of the rage of 7ed. I am going to try running Shurikan hornets as a tankier alternative to windriders. they clock in at a 109 pts.. which is not too expensive for what you are getting when compared to vypers and windriders.

my 2cents of course. I hope they prove better than I see them on paper!

I'm aware of the point cost. I like to field 3 hornets at 150 points each. They've been very solid for me so far. I've tested them in-game against a number of different targets (generally with farseer support), and they generally erase whatever they shoot at in a single salvo. Far as I can tell, the only thing they actually struggle to kill is wave serpents. ... even with both Guide and Doom, the best I've been able to do to a Wave Serpent with a hornet squadron was 8 damage in one salvo. Stupid Serpent Shield.

 Marsyas wrote:

I'm aware of the point cost. I like to field 3 hornets at 150 points each. They've been very solid for me so far. I've tested them in-game against a number of different targets (generally with farseer support), and they generally erase whatever they shoot at in a single salvo. Far as I can tell, the only thing they actually struggle to kill is wave serpents. ... even with both Guide and Doom, the best I've been able to do to a Wave Serpent with a hornet squadron was 8 damage in one salvo. Stupid Serpent Shield.

Well, it's already 450 points and you're talking about adding another 120-160 in Farseer. So you're firing 600 points at one unit.

Even still, they can't possibly kill 20 Genestealers or 30 orks, which are less than half the price. Maybe you only play against marines.

It's certainly expensive. But that's not really a valid comparison. 500 points of bright lances will never kill 500 points of ork boyz. Points, and points per damage are great tools to estimate the strength of a unit but you can't hold up an AT weapon against it's obvious weakness and say it's not worth it. Of course it won't measure up. It is valid to say you're paying a lot for a unit that will struggle against horde lists without vehicles but removing those targets is exactly the strength of more focused lists; just like a mech list would render anti-horde weapons ineffective.

Is the unit probably too expensive for what you get? Yes. But you could certainly build a list around it and wiping a unit or big vehicle a turn is definitely a strength.

One of the draws of the war walkers is for engaging a shooty threat first turn. With it's scout move it isn't too difficult for them to move shoot and charge something first turn. With toughness 6 and 4+/5+ they are fairly survivable in combat and can easily lock up a shooty unit or tank for a turn. Then can either fall back and shoot with soulburst are just stay in combat. It's not a cheap option but if you can stop a big shooting threat from shooting even for a turn it can be invaluable.

My War Walkers have never died. My opponent tonight put a big hurt on them, but then had to focus on my Wave Serpent cargo and they were left alive again.

My opponent still states that 8th ed a unit of war walkers move and act independently and thus I cannont Guide or Fortune the 3 of them>???? I think this is incorrect. From what I read they must stay within 2" (he still thinks vehicles have 6" coherence) Is he wrong?

anyways He managed to kill 1 serpent each round. But He had to throw most of his army at them. SPIRIT stones ROCK.

Dark Reapers are great vs jet/flyers.

2nd game that I had to deal with a Vindicare. They never kill their points value but are very annoying. I think Rangers would be the perfect unit to use to take out that type of assassin>?

I find the bubblewrap of the Autarch and a Spiritseer to be wasted in a Wraith Army since they duplicate too much.

Really enjoying Fusion Guns and WraithCannons!!!

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Even still, they can't possibly kill 20 Genestealers or 30 orks, which are less than half the price. Maybe you only play against marines.

*shrugs*

I haven't played Orks yet this edition, but Genestealers haven't given me any trouble. I've played eight games of 8th edition so far. Two of those games were against Tyranids, both of whom fielded Genestealers. Two games were against Marines. Two were against Tau, one against Dark Eldar, and the most recent against another Craftworld Eldar player. I haven't lost yet.

As far as I can see the war walkers are a unit of 3.
The other units of vehicles where they act independently state that explicitly in the rules. Vypers and war walkers do not.

Voss wrote:

War walkers are a weird spot in the list. Yes, the invulnerable save is nice, and a single one as an 80-90 point filler isn't terrible.

But... sadly in numbers they (and vipers, which are worse about this) lose out mathematically to wave serpents. 3 war walkers with Shuricannons are less than 30 points from 2 wave serpents with a trio of Shuricannons, so same amount of firepower, lower toughness, lower save, much fewer wounds, and no serpent shield, and the serpents are effectively slotless, given the way transports work.


Given the weapon options, the 8th ed. answer to Vypers, Warwalkers, Falcons, Fire prisms and possibly even Night Spinners* is effectively 'Why not wave serpent(s)?'

*though granted twin missile launchers are much lower strength than doomweavers in sunburst mode. The math of twin starshot vs Doomweaver is potentially interesting though.

I think the Night spinner still pulls it's weight vs the Wave Serpent and is worth taking. With War Walkers you have to factor in Psychic powers, Guide and WotP are much more effective cast on a unit of 3 walkers than on 1 Serpent.

Both are good points. My night spinner has proven effective so far and think they are a good against a variety of targets.
And eldar psychic definitely needs to be factored in when assessing choices made (unless you aren't running it which is shooting yourself in the foot imo). It is becoming increasingly obvious from my games that while in a vacuum the eldar units are generally overcosted and underpowered they start to be well worth their points once the psychic synergy is taken into account.