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2017/07/03 20:28:17
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Martel732 wrote: I've only seen one WK in 8th, and it seemed to do a pretty good job as a red herring.
In my view, the cost on the WK is off by 10% at most. It should pay something for having access to benefits the IK simply doesn't have.
I still don't think Eldar players are really grasping what overcosted truly looks like. It's not the 8th ed Eldar army. It's a very powerful army that has to kind of pay for the power now.
I think Eldar players should suffer a little bit for past sins. A bit. I want them to work for their wins like everyone else. 8th ed makes them do that, and 7th ed didn't. I don't think 10% miscosted is too bad given GW's track record. Consider yourself lucky that this is the worst nerf you've taken since 3rd.
10% overcosted would be tolerable. 80 points over 320 is a 25% increase. Just to piss Eldar players and for the ability to bennefit from some buffs (that you already must pay for).
It's crazy and shouldn't have been approved
2017/07/03 21:02:11
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Selym wrote: I never played a single game as eldar in 7th. I spent most of 5e-7e as IG and Chaos. Don't talk to me about the have-nots.
Those lists had their ups and downs for sure. 5th ed, IG was great. And the end of 7th, CSM were pretty good if you owned 4 books. But at the end of the day, I don't care what you played. Eldar deserve a turn on the bottomish. Not BA or Tyranid bottom. The slight bottom. So they take actual skill to win with, not just achieving victory in the list building phase.
2017/07/03 21:37:13
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Martel732 wrote: Oh, don't want to do your turn even in the slightest of have-nots? That seems awfully entitled.
You sir never played eldar in 3rd ed. 4th ed, or 5th ed. The army never really got "good" again until 6th/7th. So 3 editions, and most of a 4th stuck in at best mid tier.
Personally I really hate the sheer amount of entitlement you're putting out. No one is asking for broken eldar, and having the army fair and balanced is best for everyone who plays the game. The fact that you think every army deserves "their turn", in place of trying to get every army to the same level, shows a lack in your character, a lack in good sportsmanship, and a lack of tact. Punishing players, many of whom very well never used the "problem" units, or the problem units don't deserve to have stuffed armies. Neither do the ones who only took the units because they were cool. Hey, same with the tournament players who try to build the best army they can.
TLR: go grow up.
2017/07/03 21:40:29
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Martel732 wrote: I've only seen one WK in 8th, and it seemed to do a pretty good job as a red herring.
In my view, the cost on the WK is off by 10% at most. It should pay something for having access to benefits the IK simply doesn't have.
I still don't think Eldar players are really grasping what overcosted truly looks like. It's not the 8th ed Eldar army. It's a very powerful army that has to kind of pay for the power now.
I think Eldar players should suffer a little bit for past sins. A bit. I want them to work for their wins like everyone else. 8th ed makes them do that, and 7th ed didn't. I don't think 10% miscosted is too bad given GW's track record. Consider yourself lucky that this is the worst nerf you've taken since 3rd.
You are the kind of player that I try to avoid playing against.
I have not played a single game in 7th edition, and i should "suffer" because eldar were good ?
I bought 2 boxes of dire avengers before 7th. You probably think it serves me right.
Wanting players to suffer and their army turned bad is something I rarely see and almost exclusively in 40k communities.
I have never seen behaviour like that in Infinity community for example.
A community should strive for a balanced game where most of the products (models) are usable and a game that is enjoyable for everyone invovled.
This is even more important for games with such a ridiculous buy-in cost, like warhammer 40k.
2017/07/03 21:51:05
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Yes, I did. Sounds like you just were playing against people who didn't know how to cheese them out properly. 3 shot star cannons and invincible falcons were both a thing.
2017/07/03 21:52:44
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
3 shot star cannons were the ONLY good thing in the codex. Spamming a single weapon doesn't make it a good army. And falcons were no where near invincible, just annoying for my opponents.
Try again please.
2017/07/03 21:53:01
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Martel732 wrote: I've only seen one WK in 8th, and it seemed to do a pretty good job as a red herring.
In my view, the cost on the WK is off by 10% at most. It should pay something for having access to benefits the IK simply doesn't have.
I still don't think Eldar players are really grasping what overcosted truly looks like. It's not the 8th ed Eldar army. It's a very powerful army that has to kind of pay for the power now.
I think Eldar players should suffer a little bit for past sins. A bit. I want them to work for their wins like everyone else. 8th ed makes them do that, and 7th ed didn't. I don't think 10% miscosted is too bad given GW's track record. Consider yourself lucky that this is the worst nerf you've taken since 3rd.
You are the kind of player that I try to avoid playing against.
I have not played a single game in 7th edition, and i should "suffer" because eldar were good ?
I bought 2 boxes of dire avengers before 7th. You probably think it serves me right.
Wanting players to suffer and their army turned bad is something I rarely see and almost exclusively in 40k communities.
I have never seen behaviour like that in Infinity community for example.
A community should strive for a balanced game where most of the products (models) are usable and a game that is enjoyable for everyone invovled.
This is even more important for games with such a ridiculous buy-in cost, like warhammer 40k.
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: 3 shot star cannons were the ONLY good thing in the codex. Spamming a single weapon doesn't make it a good army. And falcons were no where near invincible, just annoying for my opponents.
Try again please.
I'll have to go tell all those tabled people back in 3rd that the starcannon wasn't good after all! They were just picking their models up because Eldar players were asking nicely!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/03 21:56:18
2017/07/03 21:56:52
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: 3 shot star cannons were the ONLY good thing in the codex. Spamming a single weapon doesn't make it a good army. And falcons were no where near invincible, just annoying for my opponents.
Try again please.
I'll have to go tell all those tabled people back in 3rd that the starcannon wasn't good after all! They were just picking their models up because Eldar players were asking nicely!
Ironically, D weapons and scatterlasers are the least changed, and people aren't taking them.
Starcannons were really good. Killed marines, like every existing marine weapon killed eldar. Whoops, guess that means the Space Marines were broken in 3rd. Or hey, try again.
2017/07/03 21:58:50
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: 3 shot star cannons were the ONLY good thing in the codex. Spamming a single weapon doesn't make it a good army. And falcons were no where near invincible, just annoying for my opponents.
Try again please.
I'll have to go tell all those tabled people back in 3rd that the starcannon wasn't good after all! They were just picking their models up because Eldar players were asking nicely!
Ironically, D weapons and scatterlasers are the least changed, and people aren't taking them.
Starcannons were really good. Killed marines, like every existing marine weapon killed eldar. Whoops, guess that means the Space Marines were broken in 3rd. Or hey, try again.
Marines were broken in 3rd. At least, for the early part of it. I've never had such lopsided games as with the 3rd ed BA book with the rhino rush craziness. But when Xenos got their codices, that party was basically over. There would have had to have been marines left on the table to shoot Eldar for Eldar to die. But there weren't.
2017/07/03 22:03:35
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
You clearly do not play eldar yet you come here and moan about our complaints on eldar point costs, I do not get it.
Did someone hit you over the head with a wraithknight after they tabled you or what?
What are you trying to accomplish or contribute to this thread?
2017/07/03 22:05:04
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Just trying to provide perspective. The WK is not that bad. Dire Avengers are not that bad. For bad, please reference codex BA or codex DE or codex Tyranids circa 7th ed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: Your marines players must have SUCKED!
Yeah, most marine players I played against had ways of dealing with SC spam. Numbers, transports, bigger transports (LR), using terrain.
You know, they were competent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Try again please.
No, your Eldar players were terrible from the sounds of it. There was no mathematical way out of that box. Marines dropped precipitously after the Xenos got their 3rd ed codices. They (vanilla marines) continued getting progressively worse until 6th. Marines were bottom 1/4 by the time 5th was done.
You are trying to justify GW's blatant favoritism towards Eldar by saying it never existed. Well, it did. I lived through it. The same can be said for Space Wolves, but they actually had to move to murder everything, they could just stand there and win.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/03 22:10:41
2017/07/03 22:10:02
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Martel732 wrote: Just trying to provide perspective. The WK is not that bad. Dire Avengers are not that bad. For bad, please reference codex BA or codex DE or codex Tyranids circa 7th ed.
No, because this is 8e.
We're all in 8e.
And new players will be trying to join us in 8e.
And some of them will take Eldar as their first army in 8e.
And they will run into people like you who will tell them they deserve an unfair share because GW rigged the rules outside 8e.
And then they will considering quitting 8e.
And then you will have helped ruin 8e.
2017/07/03 22:11:08
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Martel732 wrote: Just trying to provide perspective. The WK is not that bad. Dire Avengers are not that bad. For bad, please reference codex BA or codex DE or codex Tyranids circa 7th ed.
You just lost all credibility saying that Dire Avengers are not that bad.
Also, this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7th edition. This is 8th edition.
Right now nobody cares if BA or Tyranids were bad before and no one should care bacause that edition is GONE.
2017/07/03 22:12:45
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Martel732 wrote: Compared to the crap units of 7th, they aren't that bad.
DA are probably one of the less good units in 8th, I won't dispute that. Why should Eldar be immune to have suboptimal units?
For heavens sake, why should anyone have bad units??
I do not want any army to be bad. Why is that so hard to understand.
You on the other hand want eldar to be bad because they were good once.
2017/07/03 22:17:52
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Selym wrote: The logic of Martel is on par with someone saying that Northern Europe should occupy Italy because the Romans went on a conquering spree once.
That made my day
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see your signature, great sense in humour hahaha
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/03 22:22:24
2017/07/03 22:21:49
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Selym wrote: The logic of Martel is on par with someone saying that Northern Europe should occupy Italy because the Romans went on a conquering spree once.
It's a little more recent than that, but sure, I guess. A little struggle from the Eldar faction would be novel. That's what I'm getting at. After watching mechdar just run over CSM yesterday, I'm getting worried again that GW did it AGAIN.
2017/07/03 22:36:15
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Khaine wrote: Was the Starcannon nerf really necessary? They really hate CW Eldar this edition huh.
Well, it has been publicly stated that CW Eldar were designed to be bad in this edition.
Can you please post a link to that statement ?
If this is explicitly true, then I am done with warhammer.
You can find it in their lead playtester's notes on this site and others.
Incidentally, I doubt GW had much to do with it outside of choosing him as their lead playtester, since he's had personal biases against certain factions for years, houseruled those armies to be worse in tournaments, while buffing his and his friends armies, and was very public about it.
He's the very definition of someone you wouldn't want in charge of such things.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2017/07/03 22:43:27
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
Khaine wrote: Was the Starcannon nerf really necessary? They really hate CW Eldar this edition huh.
Well, it has been publicly stated that CW Eldar were designed to be bad in this edition.
Can you please post a link to that statement ?
If this is explicitly true, then I am done with warhammer.
You can find it in their lead playtester's notes on this site and others.
Incidentally, I doubt GW had much to do with it outside of choosing him as their lead playtester, since he's had personal biases against certain factions for years, houseruled those armies to be worse in tournaments, while buffing his and his friends armies, and was very public about it.
He's the very definition of someone you wouldn't want in charge of such things.
I have tried to find it before but couldn't. If you have time to do it could you please dig that quote for me?
2017/07/03 22:48:04
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls!
If you ever played Tyranids with multiple hidden Lictors with Acid Blast, A slew of Pulsa rockets that kept the entire elder army lying on the ground on turn 1 and turn 2 and turn 3 then cut them down , or the gazillion saves a Chaos army could get with Terminator armor and displacerfields and rerolls and psychic on top of that not to mention their sorcerer lords, ugg.
The elder were good but they could get crushed. My opponent plays a vanilla marine list. He takes a few vehicles a lot of heavy weapons and a warp jumping terminator captain and thunder hammer. He has only lost twice to elder in the past couple years (many other players that I don't know) If you know how to play the game in 2nd ed it is easy to take out Eldar. It was poor players that got gutted by elder that cry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: so any new unit thoughts or experiences?
Have not heard of some of the good for a while now after more games have been played???
spill it!!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/04 05:47:25
koooaei wrote: We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
R: go grow up.
