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 Grizzyzz wrote:
Have any of you guys ran nightspinners in your games?

I was looking though the index again last night, and actually stopped to read some units I 'ignored' over the past few years. They seem decent enough on paper, but ~7 shots on the average, only leads to 3-5 hits a turn.. so on and so forth..

I've played 4-5 games with it alongside 3 WW with missiles and an autarch to support them.

I didn't had that much hopes in the Spinner, but actually he surprised me on multiple occasions, I always rolled average shots (6/7) and he is incredibly good at sniping vehicles, S7 and AP-4 on 6s with 2D a pop he does a good job. His main advantage is the no line of sight, hide him and he will accumulate damages on multiple wounds units rapidly.

Is he better than 4 reapers with Exarch and a tempest launcher (close to the same cost)? No, but he's got more chance to finish the game and thus make more damages. He finished 4 out of 5 games, whilst I won't be so much sure that a squad of reapers will be still around turn 3+

What do we think of a stock nightwing vs pheonix.

The point difference is 19 between the 2. For reference the pheonix is 19 points less than a crimson hunter.

Both have twin shuriken cannons. Nightwing has 2 bright lances but the pheonix has a pheonix pulse laser (s9 pulse laser), the pheonix also has missiles (heavyd6 s5 ap-3 dmg2 or you can take heavy2d6 s4 ap-1 dmg1 both cost the same points).

The pheonix can take twin brightlances or a twin starcannons but those up the points a lot as the pheonix pulse laser is free.

They share the same special rules except the nightwing has a 5++ and can advance 24 instead of 20 or it can change it's wings and lose the above and the -1 to hit but gains free rotation and +1 to hit vs enemies. They otherwise have all the eldar flier rules.

Stat line wise they are identical except the pheonix has 16 wounds instead of 12. And the nightwing has move 20-60 where the pheonix only has 20-50. Otherwise stats are the same as a hemlock but they have crystal targeting matrices as a compulsory upgrade.

SO at a glance I though the phoenix was better.. but I did not look at the points cost differences.

Just take voidraven bombers i think that takes the cake compared to all of them ha.

For a Fast Attack choice (moar command points - it's easier to take 1 Flyer and 2 FA than whole AW), something packing so many weapons and so ludicrously fat (16 wounds? wat) with fairly low point cost seems like a good choice to me. Sure CTM is not BS 2+, but concidering how fat and fast Phoenix is, it can actually use it.

And missiles debuff is at least interesting enough to try out.

How much are people paying for their hemlocks? 211 or 221?
Originally battlescribe had them costing 211 not having to pay for the spirit stone upgrade as it wasn't listed in the equipment list on the hemlock. Now it has updated and is costing an extra 10 points paying for the spirit stones.
I can see why it would be both ways.

Hemlock Spirit Stones are like Autarch Forceshields, they are abilities not wargear. You dont have to pay for abilities, so you shouldn't charge yourself for Hemlock Stones.

That's how I have played it. But it is pretty weird that they give them an ability that has the same name as a piece of equipment that does the same thing. They should have just made it 10 points cheaper and given it the spirit stone equipment upgrade.

Kouzuki wrote:How are people finding the Autarch as a Force Multiplier due to its aura?

At 78pts, you can get
Autarch w/ Fusion Pistol, Power Weapon, Banshee Mask.

This provides rerolls of 1s to hit, which on mostly 3+ to hit units across the army, is pretty strong.

I'm thinking of this, currently been running one, but with a Fusion gun and Warp Spider Jump Generator. Although might build him as cheaper, on foot to buff the main blob of the army. With the left over points, i'll try and squeeze in a second warlock for drain.

I've only ran him once with the main blob (usually he rolls with 2 8man spider squads), but it was a smaller game, and he wasn't very useful(although that game was an easy win, maybe thats why).

Goobi2 wrote:Hemlock Spirit Stones are like Autarch Forceshields, they are abilities not wargear. You dont have to pay for abilities, so you shouldn't charge yourself for Hemlock Stones.

Annoyed and confused me too, last battle scribe update has sorta messed with my lists.

I've used jetautarch and with wings. While wings are cheaper and make it easier to jump to units you want to buff and jumping around table like crazy is fun (unit dies - jump into reserves, come back on your own turn) and can help with things like Linebreaker, any build of Autarch except on a bike with lance is impotent in terms of Autarch's own martial might.

I've seen Autarches on foot with Reaper launcher with squads of reapers as buffers too - a popular choice.

I think just cheapest Autarch (about 60 point difference between having Eldrad with all 3 powers (Guide) or Farseer+Autarch) might be best or go all in and make a Jet autarch for a buffer + small gunboat and character hunter. Things inbetween like sword+pistol, wings or warp jump generator don't seem worth it to me for extra points (even if god the models with wings and stuff are cool).

Time to rip off all our starcannons the new faq says they are dmg d3 now.... what the actual I don't even know. They are by far the most expensive heavy weapon and this is a massive nerf.

Vs a brightlance a starcannons has -2s -1ap (as in 1 worse) and now d3 damage versus d6. The only benefit is you gain 1 shot for 1.5x the cost.

If say a starcannons just went from best weapon to pretty trash.


Serpent shields are also now a shooting attack. For our reborn brethren word of the pheonix only works on jetbikes infantry and the yncarne.

Yes, the starcannon nerf is really weird given that disintegrator cannons exist.

thanks for the notes on WW and Vypers.

Leman Russ and such units have the Vehicle Squadron Ability. Set up with in 6" and then act independently.

WW, Sentinels, etc do not....2" coherence at all times


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment.’

understrength UNITS are NOW part of the game. Get used to it and start using it to build your lists. Not too hard to get a Brigade now



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ive seen a few Vindicare Assassins.

I am rethinking my use of Rangers. They normally take forever to kill anything, but going after Assassins may be a new role.

One: it may kill that vindicare that knockin your leaders
Two: they may annoy the assassin enough to draw his fire.

Heavy 1 ...he cant kill too much vs a ranger squad to make his points back

 admironheart wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment.’

understrength UNITS are NOW part of the game. Get used to it and start using it to build your lists. Not too hard to get a Brigade now

So which understrength units are we considering to be worth it?

I was thinking howling banshee on a WS with d-scythes WG to charge a unit, take a couple of guys but die in the process and trigger SfD.

As for a brigade, can you take 6 solo defender guardians to achieve this? This is ridiculous

kaintxu wrote:

As for a brigade, can you take 6 solo defender guardians to achieve this? This is ridiculous

No, it does not allow duplicate units.

kaintxu wrote:

 admironheart wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment.’

understrength UNITS are NOW part of the game. Get used to it and start using it to build your lists. Not too hard to get a Brigade now

So which understrength units are we considering to be worth it?

I was thinking howling banshee on a WS with d-scythes WG to charge a unit, take a couple of guys but die in the process and trigger SfD.

As for a brigade, can you take 6 solo defender guardians to achieve this? This is ridiculous

You can't do that, but if you wanted to abuse this you would still be able to fill out a brigade for much cheaper than normal. Looking at Ynnari, you can fill out your Troops with Guardians in Serpents and Troupes in Starweavers, which are strong choices that you're happy with and might be taking anyway. If you don't want to take 6 units you can add a 20 point Ranger for taking an early objective and deep strike denial, or 7 point Storm Guardians and Kabalite Warriors to fill requirements. Dire Avengers are generally terrible but a lone Exarch with dual catapults is not too over-priced and you're really only paying a few extra points for the slot. For Elites, Blasterborn, Solitaires, and Wraithguard are good anyway, but you can fill slots easily with a Fire Dragon Exarch, or a single Wraithguard if you're not otherwise taking a squad, or even a lone Scorpion Exarch or Wraithblade to help tie things up. In Fast Attack a lone Shining Spear Exarch seems like a no-brainer, and a Hawk Exarch for 21 points has a good chance of debuffing a whole unit's hit rolls when it deep strikes in. Granted, you could already have been taking 3x 1 Razorwing Flock so you're not actually getting these slots cheaper than you were, but you're getting a lot more out of them now. And then you get an easy Heavy Support pick with a Reaper Exarch, and then you take some Ravagers that are great anyway or maybe a Wraithlord or two.

Was the Starcannon nerf really necessary? They really hate CW Eldar this edition huh. At least Ynarri units can for sure be included in any army now, if only stuck in their own detachment.

edit: also, where tf was the Dire Avenger cost fix? I know they didn't change any points costs but come on I hate using Guardians

The Starcannon nerf is weird. Made an expensive gun that was decent at the current point value into something I imagine I will never run again.

Regarding understrength units I imagine you won't be getting much use out of them. They can still be targeted normally and expunged from the battlefield so if you take that single Dark Reaper Exarch he will be an easy first blood for your opponent.

I would be more worried about people abusing understrength to get cheaper access to Wave Serpents.

Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company
Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the
points values section must be paid for in the same way as
a model’s weapons.

Although one could argue other indexes don't affect us, it's pretty much same as Autarches shield or Hemlock's upgrade.

I would say you pay the points with that question as it is an item they carry and as such you should pay for it, despite it being an ability.

 Khaine wrote:
Was the Starcannon nerf really necessary? They really hate CW Eldar this edition huh.

Well, it has been publicly stated that CW Eldar were designed to be bad in this edition.

And they still failed lol.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Khaine wrote:
Was the Starcannon nerf really necessary? They really hate CW Eldar this edition huh.

Well, it has been publicly stated that CW Eldar were designed to be bad in this edition.

Can you please post a link to that statement ?

If this is explicitly true, then I am done with warhammer.

Is it any better than inadvertently making lists terrible for several editions in a row?

The Starcannon nerf makes sense if you look are it from the perspective of the Suncannon, which is the same tech. The points cost, however, makes it garbage.

On the Autarch and Force shield: until FAQ'd in the Xenos 1 Index, there is no indication that you have to pay the 8pts. "Force Shield" is an ability that Autarchs have and should not be confused with "Force Shield" that is WARGEAR for Wraith Blades.
One is an ability, the other is wargear. You do not pay for abilities.
It may be intended for Autarchs to have it listed as part of their wargear, but it isn't

Yeah, although extrapolating your own index to others may allow you to loot something instead of lost shield and spirit stones: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/07/40k-suffer-not-wound-take.html

Martel732 wrote:
Is it any better than inadvertently making lists terrible for several editions in a row?

I do not know if it is better or worse, they certainly did make many terrible decisions in the past.
For me personally, this could be the last straw.
I can accept mistakes, or when a unit is made intentionally good to drive sales.
But if they make a whole faction bad ON PURPOSE that is a different story.

pingu wrote:

I can accept mistakes, or when a unit is made intentionally good to drive sales.
But if they make a whole faction bad ON PURPOSE that is a different story.

I whole-heartedly agree with this sentiment.
While I don't actually think that GW are trying to make Eldar "bad", there are some peculiarities that stand out as "punishing us for the prior edition"

The WK being 80pts more expensive that an Imperial Knight is the big one for me. They have the same exact profile.
If their weapon loadouts where the source of the points difference, that would be one thing, but is not the case here
If the intention was to account for the potential buffs a WK can get, those points should be added to the buffing unit, not the WK itself.
The WK is more expensive only because they were once undercosted. It's BS and I do not mean 'ballistic skill'

-

"If the intention was to account for the potential buffs a WK can get, those points should be added to the buffing unit, not the WK itself."

Then there would be complaining about the cost of Eldar psykers. You have to pay for your cheese on one end or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pingu wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Is it any better than inadvertently making lists terrible for several editions in a row?

I do not know if it is better or worse, they certainly did make many terrible decisions in the past.
For me personally, this could be the last straw.
I can accept mistakes, or when a unit is made intentionally good to drive sales.
But if they make a whole faction bad ON PURPOSE that is a different story.

It is not a "mistake" to hose a codex with an edition change, wait 4 years to update a faction, and then have that codex suck balls. And they've done this repeatedly to several iconic factions, but NEVER to Eldar or Space Wolves. Their codices are always AMAZING. Don't worry, as soon as your actual codex drops, we'll get back to the familiar "tabled in 2 turns by Eldar" threads.

Martel732 wrote:
"If the intention was to account for the potential buffs a WK can get, those points should be added to the buffing unit, not the WK itself."

Then there would be complaining about the cost of Eldar psykers. You have to pay for your cheese on one end or the other.

It makes more sense to pay for it on the unit that gives the buff so that if you don't want to play that unit, you aren't still paying the tax for its "possibility"
Think of it this way: Dark Eldar Venoms don't pay any extra for a "Farseer bonus" yet can still benefits from Doom (because Doom targets the enemy unit)

The WK is paying for being undercosted in 7E. Pure and simple. If you cannot see what is wrong with that, I'm glad we've never shared table space (which is sad because you seem pretty cool aside from your views on Eldar)

On a Tactical note: How are Eldar at scoring objective? Aside from Guardian spam, it doesn't look like we can really put enough bodies on objectives
Do we even try? Or just take as much dakka to blow away the enemies numbers?

-

I've only seen one WK in 8th, and it seemed to do a pretty good job as a red herring.

In my view, the cost on the WK is off by 10% at most. It should pay something for having access to benefits the IK simply doesn't have.

I still don't think Eldar players are really grasping what overcosted truly looks like. It's not the 8th ed Eldar army. It's a very powerful army that has to kind of pay for the power now.

I think Eldar players should suffer a little bit for past sins. A bit. I want them to work for their wins like everyone else. 8th ed makes them do that, and 7th ed didn't. I don't think 10% miscosted is too bad given GW's track record. Consider yourself lucky that this is the worst nerf you've taken since 3rd.