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 DivineVisitor wrote:

Niiru wrote:

What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :

Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save

Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.


So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.

Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?

They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.

How do you run the Spectres? Might be tempted to pick up a box of 5, if I can find a way to fit them into a wraith heavy list

Shadow spectres are a great all purpose speedy unit that is good for shielding your reapers from deep strikers on deployment and generally kicking the ass of most infantry out there. Swooping hawks are excellent at jumping down at IG and renegade mortar squads

As a Harlequins player.

Death Jesters are terrible.

Solitaires are for fun or if you really need a turn 1 charge (once a game they can move 36" and charge) otherwise your paying 117pts for 8 or 10 attacks when a Troupe is 20 attacks with Embraces for 105pts. So for 12 less points you gain 10 or 12 more attacks.

Shadow spectres range from really good on their own to ridiculous with psychic assistance.
As is they are manouverable and pack a punch. The swooping Hawks may have the advantage with rate of fire but the higher strength and ap of the spectres guns balance that out. With 3+ armour and -1 to hit they are as resilient an infantry as eldar get (apart from wraith guard).

Where they really shine is with psychic support. Both guide and ancestors grace really help their primary mode of fire, resulting in more hits which then means more attacks. Due to their high damage output and short range they are priority target 2 for word of the Phoenix to either move twice to get in position or to double salvo. And conceal from a warlock or hemlock stacks their shrouding to -2 to hit.
Then throw in doom and their Str 6 -3 ap shots can put some hurt on even the higher toughness targets.

Niiru wrote:

I do wonder if the two wraith units are too big of a point sink, but I do like the models I have, so I would rather drop the serpents and have the wraithguard footslog than drop the wraiths... But it seems like the wraiths+serpent combo is a hard to beat combination.

I find 2 units of WG are fine at ~1500 points. Yes they are an investment but the D-scythe ones can handle most targets and opponents will fear to charge them because of their awesome overwatch. Wraithblades are good too and the sword version are the cheapest. Even so they are still 3 T5 wounds and a 3+ save. They will chop up most MEQs and are hard to shift if you get them into cover.

Niiru wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Niiru wrote:

What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :

Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save

Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.


So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.

Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?

They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.

How do you run the Spectres? Might be tempted to pick up a box of 5, if I can find a way to fit them into a wraith heavy list

I run a medium sized 6 man unit buffed with Guide and Word of the Phoenix and a Doomed target. They absolutely wreck things!

My lists tend to contain the following in at least 2 detachments (Craftworld & Ynnari):

HQ:
Avatar Of Khaine
Autarch Skyrunner
Eldrad
Yvraine

ELITES:
6 Fire Dragons
6 Shadow Spectres
10 Howling Banshees/Striking Scorpions

FAST ATTACK:
6 Shining Spears

HEAVY SUPPORT:
6 Dark Reapers

DEDICATED TRANSPORT:
2 Wave Serpents

I play in a fairly casual environment with mostly elite armies. There are ways I could make it more competitive, the Banshees/Scorpions/Fire Dragons for example rarely impress with my play style but I like my list to be thematic rather than going for maximum cheese. Currently 7 wins out of 7 though so it's working for me.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Spoiler:

Niiru wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Niiru wrote:

What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :

Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save

Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.


So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.

Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?

They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.

How do you run the Spectres? Might be tempted to pick up a box of 5, if I can find a way to fit them into a wraith heavy list

I run a medium sized 6 man unit buffed with Guide and Word of the Phoenix and a Doomed target. They absolutely wreck things!

My lists tend to contain the following in at least 2 detachments (Craftworld & Ynnari):

HQ:
Avatar Of Khaine
Autarch Skyrunner
Eldrad
Yvraine

ELITES:
6 Fire Dragons
6 Shadow Spectres
10 Howling Banshees/Striking Scorpions

FAST ATTACK:
6 Shining Spears

HEAVY SUPPORT:
6 Dark Reapers

DEDICATED TRANSPORT:
2 Wave Serpents

I play in a fairly casual environment with mostly elite armies. There are ways I could make it more competitive, the Banshees/Scorpions/Fire Dragons for example rarely impress with my play style but I like my list to be thematic rather than going for maximum cheese. Currently 7 wins out of 7 though so it's working for me.

I totally agree with preferring a theme. It's why I'm thinking I might come up with two seperate army lists, as it's hard to fit the models I like into one list. I'd love to put an Avatar into my army, but with 800 points already in wraithguard units and their transports, it's hard to then spend 250 on an avatar that will be footslogging.

I'm considering removing the harlequin troupe + starweaver from my list plan, just because they are another big points sink and I'm not sure they're justified...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
As a Harlequins player.

Death Jesters are terrible.

Solitaires are for fun or if you really need a turn 1 charge (once a game they can move 36" and charge) otherwise your paying 117pts for 8 or 10 attacks when a Troupe is 20 attacks with Embraces for 105pts. So for 12 less points you gain 10 or 12 more attacks.

Well, ok, for 12 less points you gain 10 attacks, but then you're left with 5 fragile models footslogging across the board, and will probably be dead long before they get anywhere near the enemy. To get them anywhere, you'd need a starweaver, which is another hundred points.

Solitaire is fast, and can't be targetted because it's a character. Though if the enemy do manage to target you, the solitaire is still relatively fragile.

It's Eldar though, most things are fragile!

Though I'm not sure where you got the "Move 36" and charge" from... You can move 12" + 3D6", then charge... so 15"-30", then 2D6 charge. Averages about a total of 28" threat range. Still pretty fast for a dude on foot!


Edit:
I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.

Niiru wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Spoiler:

Niiru wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Niiru wrote:

What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :

Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save

Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.


So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.

Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?

They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.

How do you run the Spectres? Might be tempted to pick up a box of 5, if I can find a way to fit them into a wraith heavy list

I run a medium sized 6 man unit buffed with Guide and Word of the Phoenix and a Doomed target. They absolutely wreck things!

My lists tend to contain the following in at least 2 detachments (Craftworld & Ynnari):

HQ:
Avatar Of Khaine
Autarch Skyrunner
Eldrad
Yvraine

ELITES:
6 Fire Dragons
6 Shadow Spectres
10 Howling Banshees/Striking Scorpions

FAST ATTACK:
6 Shining Spears

HEAVY SUPPORT:
6 Dark Reapers

DEDICATED TRANSPORT:
2 Wave Serpents

I play in a fairly casual environment with mostly elite armies. There are ways I could make it more competitive, the Banshees/Scorpions/Fire Dragons for example rarely impress with my play style but I like my list to be thematic rather than going for maximum cheese. Currently 7 wins out of 7 though so it's working for me.

I totally agree with preferring a theme. It's why I'm thinking I might come up with two seperate army lists, as it's hard to fit the models I like into one list. I'd love to put an Avatar into my army, but with 800 points already in wraithguard units and their transports, it's hard to then spend 250 on an avatar that will be footslogging.

I'm considering removing the harlequin troupe + starweaver from my list plan, just because they are another big points sink and I'm not sure they're justified...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
As a Harlequins player.

Death Jesters are terrible.

Solitaires are for fun or if you really need a turn 1 charge (once a game they can move 36" and charge) otherwise your paying 117pts for 8 or 10 attacks when a Troupe is 20 attacks with Embraces for 105pts. So for 12 less points you gain 10 or 12 more attacks.

Well, ok, for 12 less points you gain 10 attacks, but then you're left with 5 fragile models footslogging across the board, and will probably be dead long before they get anywhere near the enemy. To get them anywhere, you'd need a starweaver, which is another hundred points.

Solitaire is fast, and can't be targetted because it's a character. Though if the enemy do manage to target you, the solitaire is still relatively fragile.

It's Eldar though, most things are fragile!

Though I'm not sure where you got the "Move 36" and charge" from... You can move 12" + 3D6", then charge... so 15"-30", then 2D6 charge. Averages about a total of 28" threat range. Still pretty fast for a dude on foot!


Edit:
I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.

You dont blitz to move that far, you use a Shadowseer to double move, i did fast max in my head and miss add, its 31" then charge on average, but you get the idea.

I mean he is good, he can hide in a Troupes Starweaver now making him more worth it for sure. I just find that i a Troupe with Embraces and FP's is more rewarding and rather take more of those and him, he is very fun to play with.

I still use him time to time, but that past 4-5 games i haven't and i didnt miss him at all.

Niiru wrote:

I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.

Buffing the Wraithknight would be good. It is currently over-priced by 80-100 points compared to Imperial Knights and they are hardly powerhouse models.

The Wraithlord IS a new model. :p. Look how much better it is than the old metal models.

 Karhedron wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.

Buffing the Wraithknight would be good. It is currently over-priced by 80-100 points compared to Imperial Knights and they are hardly powerhouse models.

The Wraithlord IS a new model. :p. Look how much better it is than the old metal models.

Well I mean yeh, it's newer than the old metal models... but it's still a very old model! I think I bought the plastic wraithlord I own 10 years ago or more. Shame there's no alternative models available from other companies. I don't dislkike the model exactly, it's just a bit plain and has weird hips. Could use a better sculpt imo

edit:
Also kinda infuriating that since the wraithlord plastic was released, the monkeighs have gained contemptor dreads, leviathan dreads, deredeo dreads, a bunch of tanks and superheavies, half a dozen or more Imperial Knights, the Dreadknight... I'm sure there's more, and that's just the vehicles. Eldar got the Wraithknight (currently unplayable, apparently), and... oh, shadow spectres. Orks got gorka+morkanaut. I think Tau got the most new stuff from battlesuit variations, but that still doesn't match the imperium options.

It's why I keep considering making an imperium army, just because they actually get new toys to play with.

Though I'm also seriously considering writing my own rules for units for Eldar, using Imperium models as a base. The rules would never be tournament legal obviously, but I only play friendly games.

I just want plastic aspect models.....

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I just want plastic aspect models.....

Probably much easier to get non-gw alternatives for the aspects (with minor conversion to make them wysiwyg) than trying to convert a wraithlord. I don't think there's actually any alternative to buying the real thing. Except the FW wraithseer, which is marginally better I guess.

Though we should maybe make an up to date list of decent Eldar alternative models for different aspects etc. I remember seeing a couple old lists in the past, but they were mostly all broken links and models no longer being made.

Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.

I did remember the skatarch, but I thought they were identical to normal wraithknights but with a new gun option... I assume they're also overpriced, if they're the same as wraithknights? Or is there a difference I didn't notice?

Wyldcarde wrote:
Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.

Corsair rules also got removed.

lets get exodite rules and then models lol

Scout Walkers
Knights (Destroyer, Bright Stallion, etc)
War Walkers
Rangers
Knight riders
world seers
Hunters
Megadons
Scouts
Carnasaurs
Warp Gates
Wraith Towers
and more

 admironheart wrote:
lets get exodite rules and then models lol

Scout Walkers
Knights (Destroyer, Bright Stallion, etc)
War Walkers
Rangers
Knight riders
world seers
Hunters
Megadons
Scouts
Carnasaurs
Warp Gates
Wraith Towers
and more

This is why i think GW is slowed when it comes to making money, they literally could make 1 box of 2-3 spurs, sell it for 50$ as an upgrade box to make Exodites, give them 1 army rule and 2-3 stratagems boom! money for years, and happy players.

Niiru wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.

I did remember the skatarch, but I thought they were identical to normal wraithknights but with a new gun option... I assume they're also overpriced, if they're the same as wraithknights? Or is there a difference I didn't notice?

They can also deep strike.

Wyldcarde wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.

I did remember the skatarch, but I thought they were identical to normal wraithknights but with a new gun option... I assume they're also overpriced, if they're the same as wraithknights? Or is there a difference I didn't notice?

They can also deep strike.

Yeh I noticed that after I compared their stats/rules. I actually thought wraithknights had a deepstrike or teleport ability, but I may have been thinking of dreadknights. Still not sure about their usefullness, though the deepstrike helps I guess.

Still overcosted, but at least starting 9 away from the enemy means they can get stuck in easier.

Decided to convert myself some Dark Reapers as the old models are awful.
I'm thinking the chance of new models with the new codex are slim at best.

I've been messing around with bringing Dark reapers with a tempest launcher. A 3-man squad with a tempest launcher comes out to 115pts, and the exarch has 2d6 shots at S4, -2AP re-rolling 1's to hit, that don't need LOS to the target. The squad can hide behind large terrain pieces until it's advantageous to move out and shoot the other reaper launchers. This way you don't have to try and stick them in a wave serpent, and it leaves yvraine open to using word of the phoenix on other targets. Plus they don't need an autarch or guide from a farseer because the exarch already re-rolls 1's to hit

I ran them as 3 x 3 dark reapers each with a tempest launcher exarch. They put out some steady damage and were able to target key units that I normally didn't have the range to or couldn't see. Even after they got shot at and one squad died, another neighboring dark reaper squad got a free shot with its tempest launcher due to the soulburst. I thought they were great because they required no psychic buffs, and they added some much needed anti-infantry fire power to my list.

Has anyone else tried using MSU dark reapers with tempest launchers?

That's an interesting idea. Though Tempest launcher still only comes out at average of 3-4 kills a turn, plus another 2-3 from the reaper launchers. That's 5-7 kills a turn. Not bad. Does open up ability to fire at targets you can't normally engage.

Down side for me personally is the narrowness of the Tempest launcher compared to the Reaper launcher and the fact that not needing los is in conflict with what the other Reapers are trying to do.

Might try it though, I'm guessing mileage on this approach can be a bit mixed, but certainly less vulnerable than the traditional larger units trying to max out on the SfD.

The Tempest Launcher is basically an auto-pick regardless of what your plan otherwise is for the squad. You only ever prefer a Reaper Launcher against T8 and even then it's not terrible. An Exarch with a Tempest Launcher is so much better than a regular Dark Reaper that you should absolutely only ever be bringing minimum squads unless you have a plan to get Soulbursts out of them.

One option would be to bring 2 small squads alongside a big squad. Your opponent can't kill the little squads because they'll trigger a Soulburst on the big squad, meaning that you get more mileage out of the Exarchs, and the big squad is of course receiving WotP every turn until it gets whittled down.

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of the tempest launcher. It's a good anti infantry gun but it goes against the back field anti tank I would use them for. Lower range and much lower danage.

I've tended to run with the standard Reaper Launcher on my Exarch but that could be sue to the abundance of 2 wound units fielded by alot of my opponents. I find the extra strength, damage and range pretty useful (that and the 7 less points).

Do we know what Codex is out after Guard between us and Nids? We need some love!

 DivineVisitor wrote:
I've tended to run with the standard Reaper Launcher on my Exarch but that could be sue to the abundance of 2 wound units fielded by alot of my opponents. I find the extra strength, damage and range pretty useful (that and the 7 less points).

Do we know what Codex is out after Guard between us and Nids? We need some love!

It should be Eldar or Nids next let's hope for the Craftworlds time to shine!

 DivineVisitor wrote:
I've tended to run with the standard Reaper Launcher on my Exarch but that could be sue to the abundance of 2 wound units fielded by alot of my opponents. I find the extra strength, damage and range pretty useful (that and the 7 less points).

Do we know what Codex is out after Guard between us and Nids? We need some love!

Unless the range advantage is decisive, the Tempest Launcher is probably worth it even if you're commonly seeing multi-wound stuff (below T8). An Exarch with the TL expects 1.8 wounds on T4. An Exarch with a RL expects 1.4 damage against T4 W2. And the TL benefits more from Doom. This is arguably not worth it if you're expecting the Reapers to take a lot of fire before they get to shoot a couple times, since obviously the squad is more expensive, but tbh if you're expecting your Reapers not to get a chance to shoot more than once you probably shouldn't be taking Reapers. Plus the TL makes the Exarch a pretty efficient answer to hordes, which is something Eldar struggle with. The Exarch with TL is actually a slightly more efficient answer to GEQs than even a Guardian Defender, which is otherwise our best option, mathhammer-wise, but has the problem of needing to get close enough to do anything. I think I would only bring a RL on the Exarch if my plan was to allocate single-wound hits to the Exarch first so as to maximize the number of reaper launchers firing next turn.

In my testing I actually preferred the Eldar Missile Launcher. Keeps some of the flexibility.

Still has the single shot option, and has a D6 shot option with the longer range. Yes you need LOS but then you need LOS for your other Reapers anyway otherwise your wasting their points, and the extra range is useful.

And it's cheaper than the RL so fair bit cheaper than the TL.

Drake003 wrote:
In my testing I actually preferred the Eldar Missile Launcher. Keeps some of the flexibility.

Still has the single shot option, and has a D6 shot option with the longer range. Yes you need LOS but then you need LOS for your other Reapers anyway otherwise your wasting their points, and the extra range is useful.

And it's cheaper than the RL so fair bit cheaper than the TL.

This is it right here AML for my exarchs... it's cheaper than the other options and provides great flexibility.