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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 16:26:34
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Spoletta wrote:In 7E you could spam mid strenght high rate of fire weapons and they would be good against any target.
Try to take down tanks without dedicated weapons in 8E (and without a certain primarch that ignores every design decision behind this edition).
Exactly. Even if Scatterbikes cost exactly the same as 7th, had 3+ armour and were Troops, they would not be a top-tier choice in 8th due to the vast differences between editions (vehicles being tougher, massed hordes winning games, etc)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 16:37:41
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Galef wrote:Spoletta wrote:In 7E you could spam mid strenght high rate of fire weapons and they would be good against any target.
Try to take down tanks without dedicated weapons in 8E (and without a certain primarch that ignores every design decision behind this edition).
Exactly. Even if Scatterbikes cost exactly the same as 7th, had 3+ armour and were Troops, they would not be a top-tier choice in 8th due to the vast differences between editions (vehicles being tougher, massed hordes winning games, etc)
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Scatter Lasers also had AP5, meaning they ignoned the armour saves of Guardsmen, Guardians, Kabalite Warriors, Ork Boyz and many other things. In 8th, all those things get a save.
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Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 16:39:13
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Actually they were AP6 - one of the few things those units (aside from Boyz) got saves against.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 16:45:02
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Cream Tea wrote: Scatter Lasers also had AP5, meaning they ignoned the armour saves of Guardsmen, Guardians, Kabalite Warriors, Ork Boyz and many other things. In 8th, all those things get a save.
Ap6, actually, but that didn't matter when EVERYTHING you mentioned got a cover save that was better than their armour. So really nothing changed. They still get a save. But thanks for adding to my point that Scatter lasers are far worse in 8th even with a points decrease. -
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/19 16:46:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 17:25:44
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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I could see having a supreme command detachment of 3 Warlock Windriders under the Saim Hann craftworld attribute to ensure that they can charge and keep up with the CC aspect warriors they are following. The Saim-Hann trait is again a little underwhelming. I think these traits are going to make eldar a lot more versatile though, and hopefully different models to the table top. The best thing that the Saim hann trait looked good for is all of these vypers that are sitting on the shelf. They can move really fast and would probably benefit most from the 7'' move stratagem. A squad of 3 with AML could be a really fast and devastating unit. 20'' move with the flexibility of the AML means you could take on a lot of targets effectively. Apparently vypers also received a small points reduction AND gained the biker keyword which means that they can benefit from conceal now too. Also, scatter lasers are bad now because of the new wounding system. They used to wound T3 and T4 infantry on 2's but now they only wound T3 infantry on 2's which makes them less effective and doesn't make up for the lack of AP; plus vehicles have armour saves now. I think AML's will take the place of scatter lasers because of the two firing modes.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/19 17:38:15
  Craftworlds Eldar: 8500
Dark Eldar: 1000
Harlequins: 1000
Raven Guard: 1500
Tyranids: 1500
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 18:44:22
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I think it is worth just bearing in mind, when making comments about how good or bad things are, that everything becomes good at the right price point.
So until we see actual points on things, we don't know how powerful units, and the traits on balance, will be.
Just making the comment as several posters have mention how under whelming certain units are. We will only know on balance once we have the full picture.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 18:53:43
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Drake003 wrote:I think it is worth just bearing in mind, when making comments about how good or bad things are, that everything becomes good at the right price point.
True. I would run 200 10 point Bikes if allowed.
Also, people seem to get annoyed that not every book is as flexible as Guard. GW is still making more units viable, with the right craft world then they used to be. Heck in early 7th Eldar had 1 viable list spaming basicly 3 units and Eldrad. It wasnt until several years in that you saw formations make bikes good enough, or wraith worth taking.
I think the SaimHamm trait is amazing if you where one of those early adapters in 4th ed who had 50+ Banshees (they used to ignore saves, and 20 of em could easily kill a land raider)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 19:07:00
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Drake003 wrote:I think it is worth just bearing in mind, when making comments about how good or bad things are, that everything becomes good at the right price point.
So until we see actual points on things, we don't know how powerful units, and the traits on balance, will be.
Just making the comment as several posters have mention how under whelming certain units are. We will only know on balance once we have the full picture.
To be fair, those things used to be much more powerfull in 7E and costed less than half than what they cost now. They would need a really dramatic point cost reduction to become broken.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 19:15:21
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Bharring wrote:Actually they were AP6 - one of the few things those units (aside from Boyz) got saves against.
Oh yeah, it was Shuricannons that were AP5. I ran lots of those on my vehicles and apparently got them mixed up. My defence is I didn't play 7th for very long.
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Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 19:54:42
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Spoletta wrote:
I know, that's why i said "Reducing wounds suffered", i didn't talk about survivability, which indeed is 20% more. Generally though, offensive buffs are better than defensive buffs, since you have more choice in how to exploit them, while defensive buffs usually involve a choice for the opponent.
Also, Alaitoc is not strictly superior to Yianden if you are facing an assault army. That's the main point of it,too many people here are assuming that the shooting centric meta we have now, will still be here after all the codices have landed. Be alert, we have yet to receive a codex for assault armies, many thing could change.
Fair enough re: the percentages (sorry, I'd seen a bunch of other people talking about it as a 17% survivablity buff), but then you're not really comparing like things. Ulthwe is a 20% defensive buff while Biel-Tan is a 17% offensive buff. I disagree with your analysis of offensive and defensive buffs; it depends entirely on which units you can give them to. You always prefer an offensive buff on something inside of a Serpent, because it will get to attack before it gets attacked, but you will often prefer a defensive buff on stuff outside of a Serpent. In general you want defensive buffs on things that your opponent wants to shoot at already. So things like Jetbikes and Vypers. Your opponent always has a choice; what you want to do is make their choice as hard as possible.
I didn't say that Alatoic is strictly superior to Iyanden. I said that Ulthwe is strictly superior to Iyanden.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 20:41:40
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Fixture of Dakka
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I view Alaitoc's attribute as both an offensive and defensive buff.
Defensive is obvious, of course.
But why offensive? We all know Eldar guns typically only shoot as far as you can throw them. Alaitoc incentives the opponent to actually move closer to us.
Guardians are actually pretty amazing when they get to shoot.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 21:37:16
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Helvost wrote:Apparently vypers also received a small points reduction AND gained the biker keyword which means that they can benefit from conceal now too.
Holy crap. That also means they're eligible for Strength from Death! That's kind of a game changer for the humble Vyper.
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Eldar - 4200 pts
Harlequins - 3700 pts
Blood Angels - 1500 pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/19 21:52:30
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar
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As someone who never embraced scatbikes, I’m a bit “meh” on the Saim Hann rules. I tend not to have CC units, and have been running by bikes and vypers with Shurs. Keeping the old 1-in-3 on the bikes with the cannon, running the Vyers with 2.
So unless the relics/warlord traits/specific stratagems blow me out of the water, I think I’ll shop elsewhere for my pointy eared tactics.
I’m not going to rage quit or panic based on early leaks, but am pretty underwhelmed with the boys in red right now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 00:08:36
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Screaming Shining Spear
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so with scatter lasers costing less now. Do we think like 12 points, 10 or 14???
Are they useful on a squadron of warwalkers or with CTM for targeting hordes?
My guess is Dire Avenges will be 14 points.
Scatterlasers 12 points
and Wave Serpents gain +10 points in cost (I hope not)
Any ideas on the 2 last psychic powers?
In 2nd they still have yet to do Eldritch storm, Executioner and BattleFate.
Seems Executioner would just be another Mind war.
So will there be a massive template S3 AP- attack? or some form of re-roll for a targeted unit.(gawd....hope no more rerolls)
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koooaei wrote:We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 00:58:34
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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admironheart wrote:so with scatter lasers costing less now. Do we think like 12 points, 10 or 14???
Are they useful on a squadron of warwalkers or with CTM for targeting hordes?
My guess is Dire Avenges will be 14 points.
Scatterlasers 12 points
and Wave Serpents gain +10 points in cost (I hope not)
Any ideas on the 2 last psychic powers?
In 2nd they still have yet to do Eldritch storm, Executioner and BattleFate.
Seems Executioner would just be another Mind war.
So will there be a massive template S3 AP- attack? or some form of re-roll for a targeted unit.(gawd....hope no more rerolls)
Scatter lasers are not a great anti-horde weapon. They're too high strength. What you really want is S3 or S4 with more shots -- a hurricane bolter is about as good as it gets. Like, suppose that scatter lasers drop to 12 points (same as shuriken cannons). Then a War Walker with dual scatter lasers would be 85 points. It kills 11.85 points of Guard Infantry per volley, if it's just standing there and shooting at BS3+ (and this is Infantry, not even Conscripts). It would take 7 turns to make its points back. Ultimately the cost of scatter lasers is not that relevant because they're a very small part of what you're paying for the unit they're on as-is on everything except Windriders. Maybe a Windrider with a scatter laser drops to 25 points (this seems aggressive). This is now not awful anti-horde but it's still taking you 4 turns to make your points back on a very fragile unit that doesn't easily benefit from cover. Note that a shuriken cannon is 80% as good against GEQs as a scatter laser, doesn't have to worry about being a heavy weapon, and is a lot better against everything that's not a GEQ, although it of course does have shorter range.
Swooping Hawks at around 10 points apiece would be okay anti-horde (comparable units would be Sisters' Seraphim at 11 points or 2 Elysian Drop Troopers at 10 points, which compared to Hawks have less firepower but are much more durable, plus both have weapon options). Otherwise reasonably-priced Striking Scorpions would be a good choice (a comparable unit would be Assault Marines at 13 points or 16 with deep striking and 12" movement, but of course nobody uses naked Assault Marines so you need to aim lower than that).
I guess I find it pretty unlikely that the clear Eldar anti-horde units will actually get the price cuts they need to be effective, though I hope they do -- I'd love to finally be able to use Hawks. So the go-to choice will probably still be Guardians at 8 points, or maybe Dire Avengers if they drop to 10 or 11 points. It is possible that they make twin shuriken catapult Windriders cheap enough to work here, but you'd want them to be something like 20 points for this (comparable unit would be Scout Bikes at 25 apiece but with T5 and extra shotguns on top of their twin bolters).
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 01:03:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 04:19:02
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
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"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 06:43:11
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Regular Dakkanaut
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with regards Paychic powers, I would expect Eldritch storm to be in there.
Probably something like 24" range, 2d6 shots S3 AP-1. Units suffering a casualty suffer -1 LD unit end of turn.
That's my guess anyway
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 06:49:32
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Drake003 wrote:with regards Paychic powers, I would expect Eldritch storm to be in there.
Probably something like 24" range, 2d6 shots S3 AP-1. Units suffering a casualty suffer -1 LD unit end of turn.
That's my guess anyway
Vehicles suffer a mortal wound on a wound roll of 6. Just a guess though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 06:49:56
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Boosting Black Templar Biker
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The amount of trash that is written here is amazimg.
Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
If you wanna put propabilities in perspective you have to explain how and why not just throw numbers around.
Oh, and Jimmy: no early adopter ever killed a Land Raider with banshees in 4th. There was this thing with AV, y'know? No way you could pen that AV14 with a strength 3/5 for the exarch except some heavy cheating, also back then the Land Raider didn't even have a save to be ignored.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 07:53:26
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cpt. Icanus wrote:The amount of trash that is written here is amazimg.
Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
If you wanna put propabilities in perspective you have to explain how and why not just throw numbers around.
Oh, and Jimmy: no early adopter ever killed a Land Raider with banshees in 4th. There was this thing with AV, y'know? No way you could pen that AV14 with a strength 3/5 for the exarch except some heavy cheating, also back then the Land Raider didn't even have a save to be ignored.
So... could you explain why you'd talk about the Ulthwe trait this way? What about it depends on the AP of the attack?
You seem to be making it far more complicated than it needs to be. It's a 20% increase in durability (or a 17% reduction in vulnerability) against everything, unless you already have a FNP type rule since it explicitly doesn't stack. If the regular model can on average take X lasgun hits before dying, then with Ulthwe it can on average take 1.2 times as many. Same for lascannons, earthshaker volleys, etc. What other way of thinking about this is at all useful or natural? Certainly you shouldn't be talking about the Ulthwe trait as having a usefulness dependent on the weapon's stats while talking about the Alatoic trait as depending only on BS.
But yes, meanwhile the Alatoic trait reduces your vulnerability to shooting past 12" by the numbers you give, although it's probably more intuitive to think about it as increasing your durability by 25%, 33%, 50%, and 100%. I'm not sure who you think you're disagreeing with here.
DarknessEternal wrote:Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Yeah, this is pretty annoying (though granted they have to be within 8" or Guided). Part of it is that they're over-tuned in general, but the bigger part is that our supposed anti-horde units are way overpriced. Swooping Hawks would need to be 10 points to out-do Spectre flamers against GEQs, and of course the Hawks are actually specialized against GEQs while the Spectres are MEQ-killers who just happen to also be as good as Guardians against GEQs. But of course for some reason Hawks currently cost 17.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:05:01
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DarknessEternal wrote:Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Only helpful if your area allows FW on a regular basis. Round it it is definitely opponent's consent only and definitely not in tournaments. :(
Cpt. Icanus wrote:Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
Both Ulthwe and Alaitoc increase durability. Ulthwe is a flat 16.67% for all units against all damage, always. True it does not stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones but that just means you don't take either of those in your army.
We don't know yet if the Alaitoc Trait applies to all units (like Ulthwe) or just Infantry (like the RG Chapter trait). If it is just infantry then it probably won't be worth much since most Eldar infantry are short ranged. Rangers, Avengers, Hawks and Reapers will get a boost but not a lot else (not if they want to shoot at least). On the other hand, if the Trait applies to all units then it is going to be very powerful indeed. 25% better against BS3+ armies and getting proportionally better against lower BS armies.
Of course it can be countered. Enemy units can try to get close or assault you. This will make Alaitoc rely on speed, repositioning and "Fire and Fade" to avoid damage. Ultimately, Alaitoc may turn out to be the most classically Eldarish of the Craftworld Traits.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/20 08:11:36
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:11:26
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Karhedron wrote: DarknessEternal wrote:Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Only helpful if your area allows FW on a regular basis. Round it it is definitely opponent's consent only and definitely not in tournaments. :(
What is this 4th edition again? Can you show me where in the index or rulebook that says Forge World is permission only?
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warboss wrote:Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:13:28
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Crazyterran wrote:
What is this 4th edition again? Can you show me where in the index or rulebook that says Forge World is permission only?
Does it matter if it is in print? Round here, FW is regarded as "pay to play" and is pretty much only for friendly games. I don't of any of the local tournies that allow it.
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I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:17:05
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Karhedron wrote: Crazyterran wrote:
What is this 4th edition again? Can you show me where in the index or rulebook that says Forge World is permission only?
Does it matter if it is in print? Round here, FW is regarded as "pay to play" and is pretty much only for friendly games. I don't of any of the local tournies that allow it.
What? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. All the major tournaments allow FW that I know of with the exception of things like Warhounds and Phantoms.
If it is game legal, its game legal.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 08:17:34
warboss wrote:Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:34:17
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Doesn't matter if it's game legal if you don't have anyone who will play you if you use them. Sure the rules don't say they can't hit the table, but they also don't say that your opponents can't just tell you to screw off.
Terminators are legal, but if 18 out of 20 players in my area refuse to play against them, I can either never play, or not use terminators.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:35:13
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Fixture of Dakka
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Cpt. Icanus wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Yeah, this is pretty annoying (though granted they have to be within 8" or Guided).
They work just fine without Guide.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/20 08:35:28
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:40:21
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Karhedron wrote:Cpt. Icanus wrote:Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
Both Ulthwe and Alaitoc increase durability. Ulthwe is a flat 16.67% for all units against all damage, always. True it does not stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones but that just means you don't take either of those in your army.
About the Ulthwe thing, it's indeed a flat 1/6 for everyone, against weapons with 1 damage. It actually gets a bit more complicated with multi-damage weapons.
For instance, when shooting a 2D weapon at 1W models, the models only survive if they pass both 6+ rolls, so it only increase durability by 1/36. But against 2W models, a model survives if it passes at least one roll, so 30.5% of the time. A lot of 2D shots against such a unit doesn't actually reduce casualties by 30.5%, because the weapon can end up reducing wounds by 0, 1, or 2, to models that can have either 1 or 2 wounds left, so it gets a bit tricky to calculate the exact improvements.
This trait is actually best when your multi-wound models are getting one shot by weapons that don't normally overkill (so mostly 2W models against 2D weapons). So if you often find yourself in that position (lots of bike vs lots of plasma for instance), it's something to consider.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:42:24
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Not against hordes they don't. Firing at just regular BS3+ they only expect to kill a little more than 1 Guardsman each. It'd take them 5 turns to make their points back this way, compared to 3 with Guide. That's not great. Because of their weird gun rule they benefit far more than other units from re-rolls. Guide makes them 70% more effective, compared to 33% for regular BS3+ units. Just rerolling ones buffs them by about as much as Guide buffs other units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:49:18
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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Mmmpi wrote:Doesn't matter if it's game legal if you don't have anyone who will play you if you use them. Sure the rules don't say they can't hit the table, but they also don't say that your opponents can't just tell you to screw off.
Terminators are legal, but if 18 out of 20 players in my area refuse to play against them, I can either never play, or not use terminators.
Sounds like a bunch of 'friendly' or 'casual' at all cost players. Gross.
So, Alatoic or Ulthwe for a Wraith army? Iyanden doesnt really support them anymore rules wise, other than the one strategem. Saim Hann doesnt really work, nor does Biel Tan.
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warboss wrote:Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/10/20 08:52:22
Subject: Eldar in 8th - Blood runs, anger rises, death wakes, war calls! (OP updated with previews)
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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fresus wrote: Karhedron wrote:Cpt. Icanus wrote:Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
Both Ulthwe and Alaitoc increase durability. Ulthwe is a flat 16.67% for all units against all damage, always. True it does not stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones but that just means you don't take either of those in your army.
About the Ulthwe thing, it's indeed a flat 1/6 for everyone, against weapons with 1 damage. It actually gets a bit more complicated with multi-damage weapons.
For instance, when shooting a 2D weapon at 1W models, the models only survive if they pass both 6+ rolls, so it only increase durability by 1/36. But against 2W models, a model survives if it passes at least one roll, so 30.5% of the time. A lot of 2D shots against such a unit doesn't actually reduce casualties by 30.5%, because the weapon can end up reducing wounds by 0, 1, or 2, to models that can have either 1 or 2 wounds left, so it gets a bit tricky to calculate the exact improvements.
This trait is actually best when your multi-wound models are getting one shot by weapons that don't normally overkill (so mostly 2W models against 2D weapons). So if you often find yourself in that position (lots of bike vs lots of plasma for instance), it's something to consider.
For 2-wound models getting hit by 2 damage weapons, it's a ~31.8% increase in durability (i.e. you need 1.318 shots for every 1 you needed before to kill the model). This is very similar to the impact of the Alatoic trait on BS3+.
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