DEATHWATCH in 8th

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**Sterling191**

This seems like a logical time to jump in:

Storm Bolters vs. Stalker Pattern Bolters.

I'm beginning to expand out from my Kill Team Deathwatch force to a full army. The plan is to go Primaris heavy, with four full Fortis teams (two Hellblaster, two Plasma Inceptor + Aggressor) as the front line. But i've got just enough points left over for an MSU Veteran battalion to beef up the CP reserves.

I largely intend for them to be camping back/midfield objectives and lobbing shots downrange, so initially leaned towards Stalkers, but the temptation for what Storms can do close in is incredibly tempting, and with Kraken they still have a 30 inch "long range" profile.

Would love to hear the group's thoughts.

**Captain Garius**

I run 1-3 units of Veterans depending on my army (1 battalion or 2). I always do a 10 man unit of SB/CS for deep striking. Then if I am running the other 2 units I take them 5 man with Stalkers, and fill in with any heavy weapons I am bringing. They are used for camping objectives and usually ignored because of the Fortis teams and the deep striking vets. So far they have given me great results, as even when my 1k Sons opponent targeted them it put one of his units so far out of position that it was the only unit he had left at the end of the game.

On Warlord Traits, I take only Hidden Knowledge if I am running a single Battalion, and usually take Castellan if I am running two. The others seem too lackluster for what they give.

Relic is always Tome of Ectoclades, and sometimes I take a second and bring in the Bane Bolts or Beacon.

I have a game coming up this Saturday and will be trying either a Leviathan with Melta or the Harpoon Knight to back up my boys. I'll let you guys know how it went.

**TheunlikelyGamer**

So I will be playing a friend tomorrow at 1500 points with my deathwatch. He will be bringing Eldar and I know lately he's been favoring the use of lots of banshees . So without knowing what he's bringing for his entire list I can only speculate he will use the Alaitoc trait . With the speed of the banshees and their special ability preventing me from using overwatch on them and with the trait for -1 to hit at 12" army wide. The chances of him locking down my kill teams is great. So my chances of killing a lot in overwtatch with my frag cannons and aggressors is Null and void. I can't say for sure this will be his tactic but if I were him it would be mine. Has anyone else played a list with an element like this and if so how did you handle it.

**Sterling191**

Screens and/or team composition that allows for falling back and shooting. Banshees are squishy as all hell (S3 and T3 doesnt do them any favors). Dont plan on mowing them down on the charge, plan for them to make the charge, then get exposed in your following movement phase and shot to pieces. A single Frag Cannon has a nonzero chance of wiping out an entire Banshee team if it gets a volley off.

Just watch your positioning such that they cant consolidate into your backline.

**Slayer-Fan123**

It's important to actually not let them get the charge off. What'll be the average charge distance for Banshees? I know Scorpions will usually get their charges off much easier due to deployment shenanigans.

**SkrawnyNob**

It's long. IIRC, they add 3" to charge and advance rolls and ignore the -2" for charging through terrain. Plus one of their armywide traits (not Alaitoc, ofc) allows them to charge after advancing.

**Sterling191**

SkrawnyNob wrote:
It's long. IIRC, they add 3" to charge and advance rolls and ignore the -2" for charging through terrain. Plus one of their armywide traits (not Alaitoc, ofc) allows them to charge after advancing.

That part is innate, its the Acrobatic ability. The Saim-Hann Craftworld trait would allow them to reroll the charge, but its not commonly used.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's important to actually not let them get the charge off. What'll be the average charge distance for Banshees? I know Scorpions will usually get their charges off much easier due to deployment shenanigans.

On the contrary, Scorpions are still constrained by the 9" deployment rule for their deep strike. Banshees can move and advance, quicken, then super-charge for a huge threat range. 8+8+1d6+1d6+3+2d6 inches. Obviously they're not likely to go the full 43 inches, but its just an illustration for how much ground they can cover. Oh and they can do it while jumping out of that Wave Serpent that parked 18" from your line.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I thought Scorpions had Infiltrate rather than a Deep Strike.

**Sterling191**

Nope, it's a vanilla deep strike, just worded to be sneaky-sneak. Rangers got the Infiltrate.

Not that there's a meaningful difference anymore as either you're a pre-turn 1 move or a full blown deep strike.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Sterling191 wrote:
Nope, it's a vanilla deep strike, just worded to be sneaky-sneak. Rangers got the Infiltrate.

Not that there's a meaningful difference anymore as either you're a pre-turn 1 move or a full blown deep strike.

WOW. Well that's something they need to fix with Chapter Approved then. What the hell?

Saimm Han does reroll charges yes? Or was this Altaioc as to be expected?

**Sterling191**

Alaitoc is the -1 to hit past 12 inches. Saim Hann is rerolling charges, and Bike units can use Heavy Weapons after moving at no penalty (but still cant advance with them).

I expect to see changes to most deep strike units with CA2018 in light of FAQ#2.

**TheunlikelyGamer**

Ok thanks guys. I'll throw some inceptors/ jumppack vets in my killteams .

**bullyboy**

Agreed with above, don't try to not get charged, let him charge the banshees into a unit with a few stormshields. If you have Lore of Hidden Knowledge as WT you can reroll 2 failed 3+ invulns to help keep the rest of the sqd alive. Then fall back (you have a vanvet in there I hope) and unload with a pair of frag cannons.

As an aside note, I was doing a test game vs Aeldari the other day and my 2 Frag Cannons got a total of 5 shots off the first time they fired! Yes, 3 ones and a two were rolled. That was awful.

**Dakka Wolf**

Fly boy fly!
The FAQ nerfed charging with fly so you might as well take a Jump Pack to fly out of combat and purge those beastly xenos with your holy Bolter.

**bullyboy**

Thoughts on a deep striking Van Vet unit with 3 TH/SS and 2 HTH at 213pts? Malleus Tactic in play, Malleus Doctrine strategem and Honour Your Brothers for dealing with knight. Probably needs a Librarian to get Veil of Time off to help out with failed charges. Could benefit from a Captain with jp to reroll ones, but a little short on points and is another model that needs to make 9" charge.

As a side note, what are others plans for dealing with a 3++ knight?

**grouchoben**

I'm not sure, but I too want to work more THs into my list. Your 5-man seems ever so glassy, and I really dislike HTHs, but they could do work.

What do you think of this as a basic 5-man vet squad instead? It has 5 less swings in it, but takes a troop slot, is much tankier with 3 SSs, gets 20 SB shots, and is 69pts cheaper:

Sarg w/TH SB
Blackshield w/TH SB
3 Vets w/SS & SB

Might be comparing apples and oranges, but a couple of these squads bring some of the same anti-knight threat we're looking for. And yeah, agreed, dealing with a 3++ Knight is a pain in the ass.

**TheunlikelyGamer**

So I played a game against my buddies eldar yesterday at 1500pts. Dawn of war deployment big guns never tire. If the game had ended on turn 5 I would have won . But we rolled each time causing the game to go into overtime to turn 7! I took the below list.

My list:

Spoiler:

His list

Spoiler:

He brought 3 wave serpents full or banshees and Jain zar, 2 Night spinner, 3 squads of rangers, and two warlocks. The banshees are crazy fast and immune to overwatch and Jain Zar is a pain in the ass. If she gets in cc she can disarm your model which she used on my watch master. It took her 4 turns however to kill the killteam with aggressors. In the end I had my corvus left with 12 wounds remaining and he had two wounded wave serpents and 1 night spinner. He couldn't really hurt my corvus but it didn't kill much other than the rangers, a few banshees and the warlocks.

What did I learn?

The banshees are fragile as expected. They don't hurt our marines that well and primaris basically laugh, especially T5 ones, laugh at them.
I found my units just as effective in cc against them as they were in shooting. Maybe take more chainswords/sb next time with a bike and van vet to harass units like the banshees and max out my ability to shoot them and still get all the chain sword attacks in.
The frag cannons took on two squads that charged them. That damn ignore overwatch though!
I think I could have done things better and maybe have brought more heavy weapons to deal with the vehicles. Although I didn't know what he was going to bring. Plasma inceptors would probably been good for some free deepstrike. I also would have put the watch master in the corvus with the frag cannons since he was kitted to kill vehicles this time around.

**bullyboy**

All I can say is bravo to the Eldar player for bringing a nice fluffy non-optimized list. Sounded like a fun matchup.

**Sterling191**

Yeah, banshees need a couple of things before they go from annoyance to deadly, and this list didn't have any of them.

**Captain Garius**

I have been thinking about VV for some TH and HTH... but more and more I am considering like grouchoben. Use regular Vets to get the second battalion and deploy them either in a vehicle or Deep Strike Stratagem. The new FAQ has slightly changed how I usually play so I am considering some transports now rather than straight up deepstriking my heaviest hitters.

**TheunlikelyGamer**

bullyboy wrote:
All I can say is bravo to the Eldar player for bringing a nice fluffy non-optimized list. Sounded like a fun matchup.

Yeah we have been friends for 14 yrs and just gear up for fun on my home table. We actually played an 800pt game right afterward but I took my Wolves instead and I won that one

**bullyboy**

Captain Garius wrote:
I have been thinking about VV for some TH and HTH... but more and more I am considering like grouchoben. Use regular Vets to get the second battalion and deploy them either in a vehicle or Deep Strike Stratagem. The new FAQ has slightly changed how I usually play so I am considering some transports now rather than straight up deepstriking my heaviest hitters.

Only paying +2pts for jump packs, so is a way to cut back on CP use but does inhibit any firing platforms and a black shield thunderhammers. Has more maneuverability though.

**grouchoben**

Yeah, it's tricky. Blackshield and sarg give you 6 swings: a 5man VV all kitted gives you 11. But the cost is higher and they have no firepower, and being able to combo SB & TH on the same model is everso nice... i dont think we have a worthwhile pure-cc unit in our roster, so mixed threat seems the way to go. SBs threaten most things, and THs thteaten what they don't, so it gives you a nice tac unit, albeit at a harsh price.

**Tibs Ironblood**

When it comes to melee I really don't think DW have what it takes to function in that role. They don't have any scary melee units in either their mobility, durability or killing power. If you want melee in codex DW jumpack captains might be your only real choice even after the fly nerf.

**Chris521**

Captain Garius wrote:
I have been thinking about VV for some TH and HTH... but more and more I am considering like grouchoben. Use regular Vets to get the second battalion and deploy them either in a vehicle or Deep Strike Stratagem. The new FAQ has slightly changed how I usually play so I am considering some transports now rather than straight up deepstriking my heaviest hitters.

I'm also considering working in some transports now. Previously, I was deep striking small squads with Storm bolters, shields and frag cannons. Now, I'm planning on running 3 razorbacks each with 2 Stormbolter/Chainsword, 2 Stormbolter/Shield, and 2 frag Cannon. With the deep strike changes, I wouldn't be able to get my frag cannons into range until Turn 3. Although it's more expensive, the razorbacks would arguably give more freedom to the vets than deepstriking.

**RogueApiary**

bullyboy wrote:
Thoughts on a deep striking Van Vet unit with 3 TH/SS and 2 HTH at 213pts? Malleus Tactic in play, Malleus Doctrine strategem and Honour Your Brothers for dealing with knight. Probably needs a Librarian to get Veil of Time off to help out with failed charges. Could benefit from a Captain with jp to reroll ones, but a little short on points and is another model that needs to make 9" charge.

As a side note, what are others plans for dealing with a 3++ knight?

Honestly, running the math, I don't think there is much of anything you can do about a 3++ Knight at range. Even 9 Leman Russes, a tank commander, and three Manticores would struggle to bring a Castellan down in one round even if you got a wound in early and burned Overlapping Fields of Fire to get +1 to hit. A gallant with the Paragon gauntlet might be able to pull it off though.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Castellans were obviously priced wrong, and I can expect a change in Chapter Approved. I don't think we should really have to worry about having to handle them after that.

**TheunlikelyGamer**

Don't worry about killing the castellan completely then. Lower it a bracket first and then kill it when needed. If your playing a maelstrom game, like in tournaments at my FLGS, then kill his other stuff and play the mission carefully. He can't be everywhere at once especially if he's limping.

**Tibs Ironblood**

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Don't worry about killing the castellan completely then. Lower it a bracket first and then kill it when needed. If your playing a maelstrom game, like in tournaments at my FLGS, then kill his other stuff and play the mission carefully. He can't be everywhere at once especially if he's limping.

Then he just uses the 1 or 2 cp strat to function as if he was on full wounds. There really is no cost effective way to kill one of them outside of another one of them and at that point whoever goes first likely wins the game.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Tibs Ironblood wrote:
TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Don't worry about killing the castellan completely then. Lower it a bracket first and then kill it when needed. If your playing a maelstrom game, like in tournaments at my FLGS, then kill his other stuff and play the mission carefully. He can't be everywhere at once especially if he's limping.

Then he just uses the 1 or 2 cp strat to function as if he was on full wounds. There really is no cost effective way to kill one of them outside of another one of them and at that point whoever goes first likely wins the game.

With CP regeneration being gimped it won't happen too often. I think we are in an okay spot now because of it, even though it hurt us a little.