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If you think the answer is to go Deathwatch Smash captains, then why not just take another faction? A unit of 5 VVs with 3 THs and 2 HTHs actually dish out a good deal of wounds while keeping cost reasonable (213pts). Missing the reroll of ones to hit is rough, but wounding knights on 3s (Malleus Doctrine) and rerolling wounds (malleus tactic) means whatever you hit is reliably going to wound. Damage is then either a flat 3, or D6. 3CPs to fight again and you are putting a big hurt on that target. Yes, you have to survive Overwatch, but with Stormshields and 2 effective rerolls (strategem and warlord trait) you should get in (it might be worth taking a few cheaper stormshield dudes just to tank wounds)

It's silly that the HTH isn't available for Captains huh? It isn't like it would be broken when the darn thing starts at 30 points anyway.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's silly that the HTH isn't available for Captains huh? It isn't like it would be broken when the darn thing starts at 30 points anyway.

At a minimum, black shields and vet sergeants should be able to take them. They probably should go down by 5 or more points like frag cannons did as well.

Agreed, would love to see a character wield a HTH

Anybody have any luck using Corvus Blackstars? Love the plane but it really seems to underperform. It's such a cool plane but it just doesn't do anything and needs help IMHO.
For starters, it needs Power of the Machine Spirit, it really does. Also, the Infernum Halo Launcher is just terrible. make it a one turn only and let it be -1 for all targets. And finally, the Blackstar launcher is just pants Zero punch (if it can even hit anything).

Anybody having success?

 bullyboy wrote:
Anybody have any luck using Corvus Blackstars? Love the plane but it really seems to underperform. It's such a cool plane but it just doesn't do anything and needs help IMHO.
For starters, it needs Power of the Machine Spirit, it really does. Also, the Infernum Halo Launcher is just terrible. make it a one turn only and let it be -1 for all targets. And finally, the Blackstar launcher is just pants Zero punch (if it can even hit anything).

Anybody having success?

It's sole purpose is that its a backline insertion method for frag cannons, the chief advantage being FLY should get them to some pretty inconvenient places for your opponent instead of having them come in via rhino/razorback. Infernum launchers are absolute gold vs just about every Xenos faction in the game as -2 to hit from most of the heavy Tau, Eldar, DE, and Necron gun platforms means your Corvus stands a pretty good chance of delivering its cargo. I just load it for full dakka with the infernum launcher and put a kill team inside with 4x frags/2-4x storm shield and bolter/2 barebones terminators or 2x bolter vets. In FLGS play it does great. In tournaments, not so much because most tournament lists are designed to drop a Knight per turn, so a Corvus stands zero chance.

PotMS would actually make taking the lascannons/stormstrikes a possibility. But honestly, it's such a huge target anyway I feel like investing more points into the guns is a waste of time as it will still get focused on no matter what. I'd be much happier with a price decrease on the hull or increased survivability.

RogueApiary wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Anybody have any luck using Corvus Blackstars? Love the plane but it really seems to underperform. It's such a cool plane but it just doesn't do anything and needs help IMHO.
For starters, it needs Power of the Machine Spirit, it really does. Also, the Infernum Halo Launcher is just terrible. make it a one turn only and let it be -1 for all targets. And finally, the Blackstar launcher is just pants Zero punch (if it can even hit anything).

Anybody having success?

It's sole purpose is that its a backline insertion method for frag cannons, the chief advantage being FLY should get them to some pretty inconvenient places for your opponent instead of having them come in via rhino/razorback. Infernum launchers are absolute gold vs just about every Xenos faction in the game as -2 to hit from most of the heavy Tau, Eldar, DE, and Necron gun platforms means your Corvus stands a pretty good chance of delivering its cargo. I just load it for full dakka with the infernum launcher and put a kill team inside with 4x frags/2-4x storm shield and bolter/2 barebones terminators or 2x bolter vets. In FLGS play it does great. In tournaments, not so much because most tournament lists are designed to drop a Knight per turn, so a Corvus stands zero chance.

PotMS would actually make taking the lascannons/stormstrikes a possibility. But honestly, it's such a huge target anyway I feel like investing more points into the guns is a waste of time as it will still get focused on no matter what. I'd be much happier with a price decrease on the hull or increased survivability.

Agreed. It is definitely a delivery system. I used mine for the first time the other day and used it to deliver my frag cannon squad as well. In my friendly game the other day it survived 7 turns against eldar. -2 to hit is legit. He just stopped shooting at it and focused on other targets allowing it to roam freely picking off targets. I think I'll bring it every time I play tau or space elf varieties. Saves CP also instead of DS my vets.

I just got an absolute whipping today from a competitive SW list. Three Stormwolves made me realise how utterly under-par the Corvus is - I don't know if I can take it out again for a while! Its guns aren't worth it, and it dies easily enough, and we can't give it any better protection, and it's overcosted, and its directly competing with the teleportarium strat.

I still love the thing though.

 grouchoben wrote:
I just got an absolute whipping today from a competitive SW list. Three Stormwolves made me realise how utterly under-par the Corvus is - I don't know if I can take it out again for a while! Its guns aren't worth it, and it dies easily enough, and we can't give it any better protection, and it's overcosted, and its directly competing with the teleportarium strat.

I still love the thing though.

It's not directly competing with the teleportarium strat. It's the only way to get frag cannons both in range and the enemy backline on turn two. But yes, outside of that, it has no function that can't be done better elsewhere and the narrow use case for it means you can't really take it in competitive as the risk of the flyer blowing up before you can get your initial 40" move over the enemy screen is too high.

I used a DW/IK list to defeat Orks and BT/IK back to back. Primaris DW are difficult to shift without very specific weapons I will admit.

I like frag cannons, don't get me wrong. But why are we so desperate to get them somewhere? Against a Predator, within 8", with the mission, and a cap, they're doing 1.35, or 2 damage each, depending on profile. That's hardly the kind of numbers to build a list around. They're good at killing marines, but so are a lot of other profiles. They're good at killing chaff, but not as efficiently as SBs with hellfire. Their best role is as overwatch denial.

None of this is to say the gun is bad - it's not, I like it, it's cool as hell. But their delivery doesn't really save the Corvus.

I don't use the regular vets, so I can't comment.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use the regular vets, so I can't comment.

Apparently you can.

Anyone else bummed DW are limited to standard marine psychic powers? I feel like it would have been an awesome flavor piece to give their librarians access to any lore they wanted due to the diversity of the members.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use the regular vets, so I can't comment.

Apparently you can.

Anyone else bummed DW are limited to standard marine psychic powers? I feel like it would have been an awesome flavor piece to give their librarians access to any lore they wanted due to the diversity of the members.

Marine powers need a rework anyway. I will say, though, that psychic barrier is nice on large primaris squads.

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't use the regular vets, so I can't comment.

Apparently you can.

Anyone else bummed DW are limited to standard marine psychic powers? I feel like it would have been an awesome flavor piece to give their librarians access to any lore they wanted due to the diversity of the members.

Marine powers need a rework anyway. I will say, though, that psychic barrier is nice on large primaris squads.

I honestly think marine powers are fine. They have some potentially very powerful uses albeit they are inferior to eldar powers by a healthy margin.

And chaos marine powers.

And space furry powers.

And DA powers.

Only BA powers are equally gakky.

My DW detachment only has a primaris libby b/c I can't afford the smash capt.

If veil of time allowed advancing and THEN charging, it would be worthwhile. Just a reroll is straight garbage.

Pfft, I'll take the Blood Angels Psyker table anyday over the Librarius. You can't be serious.

They're both really bad. Try actually using the BA table. It's awful.

Martel732 wrote:
They're both really bad. Try actually using the BA table. It's awful.

Uh yeah, only usable ones are Might of Heroes and Veil Of Time. That's it. Psychic Scourge is then only mediocre.

Compare to a 5++, a 12" move once more, Quickening, and Blood Boil? Hell no.

I've found psychic fortress to be the most useful one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've found psychic fortress to be the most useful one.

Mortal wounds are one of the last things the army needs to worry about.

We can agree to disagree on that. Mortal wounds are always bad news.

The only good thing SM psychic power have is, you can buff anybody that is loyalist marines.

For example, you can cast Might of Hero on Slamguinius and watch it have 4+1+D3 attacks and wound that Imperial Knight on 2s. Or you can cast veil of time on GMNDK or Thurnder Wolf Cavalry without the Wulfens nearby to let them reroll charge distance

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mortal wounds are one of the last things the army needs to worry about.

Depends on what you're using to soak them up.

Guardsmen eating up MW? Not a problem.

Screening done with expensive Primaris? You'll want fortress. Not just against smite spam, either.

Then there's the value of deny that folks forget.

If MoH goes unit instead of model, it'll be amazing. If VoT allows advancing and charging, it'll be amazing. Fury of the Ancients sadly just needs to go away because I don't think it'll ever be worth casting without major changes lol

So I was planning on trying a primaris only 1500pt list. The fortis teams I plan on taking are 5 intercessors,2 aggressor, 1 inceptor. Supported by watch master and another hq. I used 1 of these teams against eldar and it worked well but I don't have enough games in with the DW yet to determine how good they are. I have maybe 7 or 8 games with them and I keep changeing my lists. I've done well but I'm always looking for better ways to play. You guys seem like you hate frag cannons but they have worked wonders for me. Is efficiency per point the reason why you guys prefer the primaris kill teams over vets?

I was reading it a few times here, can i really reroll with Lord of the hidden knowledge 2 failed invuln of one modell? Or 2x to hit?

I thought rerolls just 1x

Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.

Hesselhof wrote:
I was reading it a few times here, can i really reroll with Lord of the hidden knowledge 2 failed invuln of one modell? Or 2x to hit?

I thought rerolls just 1x

Not for the same model, but definitely for the same unit if it applies. Like rerolling two different failed wounds or hits.

In full Fortis teams dropping in via teleport they're bloody terrifying, especially when you give them an Aggressor so the whole squad moves as fast as Eldar. Standalone they're not gonna survive the countervolley.

@lemondish: ahhhh i see i see, not for the same modell but two rerolls for the same unite, propably, k i got it^^