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Hesselhof wrote:
@lemondish: ahhhh i see i see, not for the same modell but two rerolls for the same unite, propably, k i got it^^

To clarify just in case: You CAN use it on the same model. You can't ever re-roll a re-roll, but say if your watch master has two failed invulns you could re-roll one of those with a command point and another with the warlord trait re-roll.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.

Not in deathwatch. You can put them in a fortis team for deepstrike shenanigans, but the team will cost around 300+ points (5 intercessors, 3 inceptors, 1 agressor). At that point you are really banking on the enemy bringing something vulnerable to it. I'd rather bring a 5 intercessor/5 hellblaster team and get nearly the same output at longer range.

I ran them a lot in Dark Angels, where WoTDA meant you could one-round super heavies and knights with a 3 man unit (before the turn 1 DS nerf, but it still holds true). Some key points if you do run them:

1) Meteoric Charge is a trap. Don't get into melee willingly. With the fortis kill team you can always fall back, but you'lll always take more than you give in melee.
2) Don't drop at the 9" mark. We get use to dropping units directly at the minimum 9 inch mark, but 18" assault D3 means you are equally effective anywhere within the 18 inches. Drop around 15 inches and move around rather than sticking in place
3) Find the biggest target and hit it - You need to make a lot of points back and you'll be taking a crap ton of return fire. Ignore the little guys and drop against the biggest armored target you can find.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Hesselhof wrote:
@lemondish: ahhhh i see i see, not for the same modell but two rerolls for the same unite, propably, k i got it^^

To clarify just in case: You CAN use it on the same model. You can't ever re-roll a re-roll, but say if your watch master has two failed invulns you could re-roll one of those with a command point and another with the warlord trait re-roll.

Yes, exactly. You can't reroll the same die twice. Beyond that, go ahead


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.

Not in deathwatch. You can put them in a fortis team for deepstrike shenanigans, but the team will cost around 300+ points (5 intercessors, 3 inceptors, 1 agressor). At that point you are really banking on the enemy bringing something vulnerable to it. I'd rather bring a 5 intercessor/5 hellblaster team and get nearly the same output at longer range.

I ran them a lot in Dark Angels, where WoTDA meant you could one-round super heavies and knights with a 3 man unit (before the turn 1 DS nerf, but it still holds true). Some key points if you do run them:

1) Meteoric Charge is a trap. Don't get into melee willingly. With the fortis kill team you can always fall back, but you'lll always take more than you give in melee.
2) Don't drop at the 9" mark. We get use to dropping units directly at the minimum 9 inch mark, but 18" assault D3 means you are equally effective anywhere within the 18 inches. Drop around 15 inches and move around rather than sticking in place
3) Find the biggest target and hit it - You need to make a lot of points back and you'll be taking a crap ton of return fire. Ignore the little guys and drop against the biggest armored target you can find.

Two Inceptors average like 6 shots, which is a pretty decent addition to a Fortis Kill Team, and serves as a budget version of the Hellblaster option. I actually kind of like these smaller Fortis units because I like running many of them lol

Lemondish wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.

Not in deathwatch. You can put them in a fortis team for deepstrike shenanigans, but the team will cost around 300+ points (5 intercessors, 3 inceptors, 1 agressor). At that point you are really banking on the enemy bringing something vulnerable to it. I'd rather bring a 5 intercessor/5 hellblaster team and get nearly the same output at longer range.

I ran them a lot in Dark Angels, where WoTDA meant you could one-round super heavies and knights with a 3 man unit (before the turn 1 DS nerf, but it still holds true). Some key points if you do run them:

1) Meteoric Charge is a trap. Don't get into melee willingly. With the fortis kill team you can always fall back, but you'lll always take more than you give in melee.
2) Don't drop at the 9" mark. We get use to dropping units directly at the minimum 9 inch mark, but 18" assault D3 means you are equally effective anywhere within the 18 inches. Drop around 15 inches and move around rather than sticking in place
3) Find the biggest target and hit it - You need to make a lot of points back and you'll be taking a crap ton of return fire. Ignore the little guys and drop against the biggest armored target you can find.

Two Inceptors average 4.5 shots, which is a pretty decent addition to a Fortis Kill Team, and serves as a budget version of the Hellblaster option. I actually kind of like these smaller Fortis units because I like running many of them lol

I think there is value to both. A Hellblaster is almost half the cost of a plasma inceptor, meaning you can put two of them in a fortis kill team for each inceptor. The two hellbalsters teleporting in will get 4 rapid fire shots at AP-4, while the Inceptor get an average of assault 4 at AP-3 (you can run the math here: http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php ). The Inceptor brings the valuable ability to fall back and shoot, but the hellblasters bring twice the wounds and can nail targets at 30" away when you need to nail something that doesn't want to be in assault range. The Inceptor has superior speed, but he has to stay in formation, so it's not a huge bonus.

I'm curious why you call them a budget version of hellbalsters - you have to pay for both Plasma Exterminators, bringing the cost up to 56ppm. That's not cheap.

Plasma Inceptors suck.
They sit somewhere between anti-tank and anti-infantry and suck at both - not enough power for good tank hunting, not enough shots for good infantry hunting.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.

Not in deathwatch. You can put them in a fortis team for deepstrike shenanigans, but the team will cost around 300+ points (5 intercessors, 3 inceptors, 1 agressor). At that point you are really banking on the enemy bringing something vulnerable to it. I'd rather bring a 5 intercessor/5 hellblaster team and get nearly the same output at longer range.

I ran them a lot in Dark Angels, where WoTDA meant you could one-round super heavies and knights with a 3 man unit (before the turn 1 DS nerf, but it still holds true). Some key points if you do run them:

1) Meteoric Charge is a trap. Don't get into melee willingly. With the fortis kill team you can always fall back, but you'lll always take more than you give in melee.
2) Don't drop at the 9" mark. We get use to dropping units directly at the minimum 9 inch mark, but 18" assault D3 means you are equally effective anywhere within the 18 inches. Drop around 15 inches and move around rather than sticking in place
3) Find the biggest target and hit it - You need to make a lot of points back and you'll be taking a crap ton of return fire. Ignore the little guys and drop against the biggest armored target you can find.

Two Inceptors average 4.5 shots, which is a pretty decent addition to a Fortis Kill Team, and serves as a budget version of the Hellblaster option. I actually kind of like these smaller Fortis units because I like running many of them lol

I think there is value to both. A Hellblaster is almost half the cost of a plasma inceptor, meaning you can put two of them in a fortis kill team for each inceptor. The two hellbalsters teleporting in will get 4 rapid fire shots at AP-4, while the Inceptor get an average of assault 4 at AP-3 (you can run the math here: http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php ). The Inceptor brings the valuable ability to fall back and shoot, but the hellblasters bring twice the wounds and can nail targets at 30" away when you need to nail something that doesn't want to be in assault range. The Inceptor has superior speed, but he has to stay in formation, so it's not a huge bonus.

I'm curious why you call them a budget version of hellbalsters - you have to pay for both Plasma Exterminators, bringing the cost up to 56ppm. That's not cheap.

I meant to imply it's a budget version of the FULL Intercessor/5 Hellblaster build. 10 shots versus average of 8, but you aren't committing all your high str shots into one single unit. It's an option with trade offs, but can fit easier in a battalion if needed.

The AP is often unnecessary given the glut of invulns.

I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.

Martel732 wrote:
I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.

No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.

If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.

But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...

Ok I'll just stick with the hellblasters in the fortis team I've been using.

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.

No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.

If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.

But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...

The -4 AP is gonna be wasted against a lot of lists.

I plan for 2 Fortis Kill teams.

One is 5 auto bolt rifles, 3 aggressors, 2 assault bolter inceptors
Second will be 5 regular intercessors, 4 plasma incinerator hellblasters and 1 plasma inceptor.


Adding to the AT discussion, I had a great game over the weekend where 3 Ven Dreads with Twin Las/ML were around a Captain with Dominus Aegis. Between the 5+ invuln and 6+ FNP, they were very resilient. The only thing lacking was a decent melee option should a vehicle get to assault the dreads. Might be worth adding a Thunder Hammer to the Captain to go after any vehicle that tries to assault.

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.

No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.

If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.

But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...

No doubt they are strong. Especiallly against marines and Necrons. 2dmg will give Necrons a real hard time for their vehicles and Tombblades. They could also put some hurts against IG tanks and even IK, should they fail to prevent you from DS within 15" of them.

But when you face the OP stuff like Harequins, Dark Eldars. You will watch your poor Hellblasters hitting only on 5s, and kill themselves on 1 2 and 3s. Then watch your few hits bounced off their 4++.

If goes against anything with stack -1 to hit, I would not take the Hellblasters as mainstay, and instead would use Fragcannons, stormbolters and Shotguns.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Hesselhof wrote:
@lemondish: ahhhh i see i see, not for the same modell but two rerolls for the same unite, propably, k i got it^^

To clarify just in case: You CAN use it on the same model. You can't ever re-roll a re-roll, but say if your watch master has two failed invulns you could re-roll one of those with a command point and another with the warlord trait re-roll.

Ahh now i´m on it^^: My Watchmaster gets 2 Lascannonn shots, i wreck both invuln, for the first i use 1CP reroll, for the second i use the trait

Awesome, thx for this =)

I have such a love/hate with hellblasters. Against some armies they dominate, against others you almost feel like you'd rather have SBs. Then there's the DS conundrum. T2 can be too late in some games, when you lose initiative, so you can't gamble on a large proportion of your army showing up after the event. (I've lost a few games on the trot now due to DS imbalance in my lists.)

But they do help to turn a siuation on its head more often than not. I think I'm going to tone them down to just 5 hellblasters. Enough to take a vehicle down a bracket or smoke a character, but not over 1/6th of your list, like the 10-man team.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.

No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.

If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.

But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...

No doubt they are strong. Especiallly against marines and Necrons. 2dmg will give Necrons a real hard time for their vehicles and Tombblades. They could also put some hurts against IG tanks and even IK, should they fail to prevent you from DS within 15" of them.

But when you face the OP stuff like Harequins, Dark Eldars. You will watch your poor Hellblasters hitting only on 5s, and kill themselves on 1 2 and 3s. Then watch your few hits bounced off their 4++.

If goes against anything with stack -1 to hit, I would not take the Hellblasters as mainstay, and instead would use Fragcannons, stormbolters and Shotguns.

You don't need to overcharge against harlequins . Their vehicles are T5 at most and 5 wounds. Dark eldar vehicles are what T6? I just throw aggressors and intercessors at both of them with the +1 strat. Smokes their vehicles easy. I just throw enough dice at them until they fail enough invul. 4 up invul isn't that great, I failnit on my HQs all the time lol.

Martel732 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.

No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.

If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.

But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...

The -4 AP is gonna be wasted against a lot of lists.

Wounding on 2s, rerolling fails is never wasted.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.

No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.

If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.

But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...

No doubt they are strong. Especiallly against marines and Necrons. 2dmg will give Necrons a real hard time for their vehicles and Tombblades. They could also put some hurts against IG tanks and even IK, should they fail to prevent you from DS within 15" of them.

But when you face the OP stuff like Harequins, Dark Eldars. You will watch your poor Hellblasters hitting only on 5s, and kill themselves on 1 2 and 3s. Then watch your few hits bounced off their 4++.

If goes against anything with stack -1 to hit, I would not take the Hellblasters as mainstay, and instead would use Fragcannons, stormbolters and Shotguns.

You don't need to overcharge against harlequins . Their vehicles are T5 at most and 5 wounds. Dark eldar vehicles are what T6? I just throw aggressors and intercessors at both of them with the +1 strat. Smokes their vehicles easy. I just throw enough dice at them until they fail enough invul. 4 up invul isn't that great, I failnit on my HQs all the time lol.

I defintely agree that +1 wound is powerful, but 1st, those Harlequin supersonic skimmer vehicles and Dark Eldar Raider / Venom are "Transport" so no stratagem give +1 wound against them. More importantly, the stack -1 to hit is ugly when going along with 4++. There maybe lucky rolls so those Harlequin transports can be taken down easy, but on average takes a squad of 3 Inceptors near the Watchmaster would only able to chip off 2 wounds from the Harlequin skimmer. Well, they are actually one of the more tough army even not counting their awesome offensive capability, and their toughness rely mainly on the modifier to hit. So I think I would give more look on the old "template" weapons .

10 hellblasters with captain rerolls, shooting without overcharge against a harlie transport does 3.8 damage. Hardly worth spending 340pts on and waiting until turn 2 for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're awesome against some enemies (MEQ/TEQ), pretty great against others (T7 tanks) and suck against others very hard (your harlie example). They skew your list a bit, that's why I'm dialling back to a single 5-man squad - DS them against exposed characters, to finish off wounded targets, etc.

Firing them regular mode is such a waste. -1 to hit just shuts them down and that's unacceptable for such expensive modejls.

 grouchoben wrote:
10 hellblasters with captain rerolls, shooting without overcharge against a harlie transport does 3.8 damage. Hardly worth spending 340pts on and waiting until turn 2 for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're awesome against some enemies (MEQ/TEQ), pretty great against others (T7 tanks) and suck against others very hard (your harlie example). They skew your list a bit, that's why I'm dialling back to a single 5-man squad - DS them against exposed characters, to finish off wounded targets, etc.

If you are rerolling 1s why are you not supercharging?

Mirage Launchers: -1 to hit makes your boys go boom!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Firing them regular mode is such a waste. -1 to hit just shuts them down and that's unacceptable for such expensive modejls.

Yeah I know. They really suffer against Eldar.

Watch masters, deredeo dread, leviathan dreads, redemptor dreads, ven dreads, intercessors, and intercessors w/inceptor+aggressor are where it's at for DW I think. Vets crumble when the opponent gets a turn and the Corvus and other tricks just cost too much. SIA bolt rifles are just $$. I've seen too many lists struggle to get their stormbolters in optimal range. And the models that have them die to a stiff wind. I'd rather die to dissy cannons and autocannons than die to everything.

Martel732 wrote:
Watch masters, deredeo dread, leviathan dreads, redemptor dreads, ven dreads, intercessors, and intercessors w/inceptor+aggressor are where it's at for DW I think. Vets crumble when the opponent gets a turn and the Corvus and other tricks just cost too much. SIA bolt rifles are just $$. I've seen too many lists struggle to get their stormbolters in optimal range. And the models that have them die to a stiff wind. I'd rather die to dissy cannons and autocannons than die to everything.

Half your comment made sense, but then the last half just flew off into crazy land. Par for the course.

It's not difficult whatsoever to get storm bolters into optimum range.

Common Vet squads provide two to four wounds of 2+ protection against AP 0, and two to four wounds at 3++. You shouldn't be losing Vet squads that easily. They're routinely more resilient against everything than Primaris. Are you only running 10 with just storm bolters or something? What a waste if so.

I don't use them. I've just fought against them. And seen others use them. Even with a terminator in them, I've had no trouble wiping them very quickly.

I meant get stormbolters into optimal range against the stuff they really want to hit with them.

Lemondish, what's your preferred vet squad lodaout? Curious, because you seem to be using termies, and I haven't have much success with them.

I like a mortal wound fishing team, 5 man stormbolter squads with a shield, and a bigger team that uses VVs and shields.

 grouchoben wrote:
Lemondish, what's your preferred vet squad lodaout? Curious, because you seem to be using termies, and I haven't have much success with them.

I like a mortal wound fishing team, 5 man stormbolter squads with a shield, and a bigger team that uses VVs and shields.

I use max size Veteran squads in competitive play consisting almost exclusively with this build:

Veteran Sgt with storm bolter and chainsword
Black shield with storm bolter and chainsword
2 Veterans with storm bolters and chainswords
2 Veterans with storm bolters and storm shields
2 Veterans with frag cannons
1 Terminator with storm bolter and power sword
1 Vanguard Veteran with double chainswords

This all means there's not really a super efficient weapon type for taking out Veterans and the opponent will need to concentrate fire to really make a dent. For high str, high AP, multi damage guns like plasma, funneling the wounds to a 3+ invuln Veteran removes the value of the AP and multi damage. Likewise, funneling attrition fire (which tends to be high in volume, but 1 damage) to a 2+ model with 2 wounds means you need quite a lot of shots to punch through before he's dropped.

The VV ends up being a designated grenade bitch, should it come up. Also costs just 2 points to add extra SIA shot on the drop instead of the chainswords.

10 man maximizes stratagem usage.

They're still T4 marines, but they're pretty tanky all things considered, and they are often protected from alpha. I tend to rely on punching a hole in screens with the Primaris units, then dropping the two Vet squads into the hole alongside a pseudo smash captain and jump pack librarian. I previously used all manner of charge and pile in shenanigans with the VV to protect a squad from immediate reprisal, which will be a little bit harder now.

For not super competitive matches with friends or just fooling around, you can fit the squad in a Corvus - which is cool. I don't advise bringing a Corvus to many competitive matches, though. There are only so many inefficient choices you can make before it starts to handicap you hard, and playing marines in the first place is a pretty rough one already

If you want to go really fething inefficient in a friendly match, but run something that looks cool as balls, they'll also fit in a Redeemer. Disclaimer: I am not suggesting anybody take either a Corvus or LR to a competitive fight you wish to win.

Pretty similar to my 10 man squad - 1 VV, 3 SS, everyone has SBs that can take em. The two times I've taken a termi he's been tagged with a wound, and forced to eat the next attack, wiping him pretty easily.

218pts is a good price for 9SBs and 4 SSs. But yeah, delivery is a problem. I've been running 5 mans in razorbacks instead recently. They're fun.

 grouchoben wrote:
Pretty similar to my 10 man squad - 1 VV, 3 SS, everyone has SBs that can take em. The two times I've taken a termi he's been tagged with a wound, and forced to eat the next attack, wiping him pretty easily.

218pts is a good price for 9SBs and 4 SSs. But yeah, delivery is a problem. I've been running 5 mans in razorbacks instead recently. They're fun.

Yes, that is how it works with wound allocation. The benefit I find is that, compared to a 3+ vet acting as an ablative wound against attrition fire (you don't want to lose a shield to AP - after all), the Terminator will make more saves and won't reduce the unit's combat effectiveness quite as much when there's two failed saves. I find there's value in that.

I also liked using the teleport homer - tough to get right, but when it works, it really works lol

In slightly non completive match ups I started using 6 man Vet squads with combi-plasma or melta in Asscan Razorbacks. 3 of those have been really fun. Kind of expensive points wise for a mostly suicide squad, but super enjoyable. The combi-plasma is about as effective as the storm bolters against a lot of targets, even with the impact to hit by firing both (don't need to overcharge here), while giving you tools for taking on tougher units. Not at all efficient in points atm, but fun.

So as far as competetive builds I’m really out of the loop regarding DW. Are they even competitive as a mono build or do I need to add in allies ? I have all the usual suspects. Guard, knights, smash and Shield capts.
But if a build can be done without them even better.

Recently I picked up some boxes of units to start a DW build.
What I have so far:

6 boxes of vets to make 30
1 box agressors
3 Bolter inceptors
10 intercession season
1 box vanguard vets
3 terminators
2 jump capts
Librarian
Leviathan dread w/ dual star cannons
Venerable dread
2 normal dreads that can be Mortis
Lots of storm bolsters
Lots of storm shields
Any load out option needed
Other assorted SM units/ characters that can be used as DW.

I don’t have to use everything here so it’s not about using all of this.
I’m willing o pick up a few items as well.

Suggestions ? I could use DW in an RTT coming in 2 weeks. No one will run them

 zedsdead wrote:
So as far as competetive builds I’m really out of the loop regarding DW. Are they even competitive as a mono build or do I need to add in allies ? I have all the usual suspects. Guard, knights, smash and Shield capts.
But if a build can be done without them even better.

Recently I picked up some boxes of units to start a DW build.
What I have so far:

6 boxes of vets to make 30
1 box agressors
3 Bolter inceptors
10 intercession season
1 box vanguard vets
3 terminators
2 jump capts
Librarian
Leviathan dread w/ dual star cannons
Venerable dread
2 normal dreads that can be Mortis
Lots of storm bolsters
Lots of storm shields
Any load out option needed
Other assorted SM units/ characters that can be used as DW.

I don’t have to use everything here so it’s not about using all of this.
I’m willing o pick up a few items as well.

Suggestions ? I could use DW in an RTT coming in 2 weeks. No one will run them

Looks like you have a core of good Deathwatch models to draw from. If you're going to a RTT or bigger, than allies are pretty much mandatory if you even want to think about doing better than 0-3. Main thing is you want at least 13 CP starting. The CP regen nerf hit pretty hard though, so if you can get even more, all the better, but at least you are no longer forced to use a Guard CC as warlord since it's functionally the same as the DW warlord trait now. My last RTT went 1-2, both L's were to Death Guard. The resilience on their stuff is absolutely bonkers.

Units/models that do well for me are 2xSC Leviathan, 2x TLC Contemptor Mortis Dread (to unlock the Leviathan), Fortis Kill Team with 5 intercessor/5 aggressors, storm bolter vets, storm shield vets, barebones terminators for tanking small arm fire in vet squads (this can be really swingy though, either they do amazing or I roll two 1's in the first volley of trash shots).

I'm going to be hopefully trying out a list soon with a Gallant, two helverins, the loyal 52 (one infantry squad is max conscripts, and one psyker instead of one of the CC's), and a couple squads of fortis/vet kill teams to clear screens and even threaten tanks by volume of fire and the +1 to wound strat. Lots of CP and the Gallant should be able to tackle an opposing Knight, but not sure if there's enough AT in the list though. If I can get the second Gallant built/painted, I have another list that would run 2x Gallants 1x Helverin (think a Warglaive would be better at that point for synergy but I'm on a self-imposed buying freeze until I clear my Deathwatch/Custodes/Knights backlog).