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I run a helverins/gallant/DW list myself, it's great. I wouldn't recommend a second gallant though, as it can be countered quite hard by terrain/flyers, so two would make your list weak in some matchups. Endless Fury warden would be sweet tho...

I like errant over gallant in my list.

Errant's great too, and Endless Warden.

Hey DeathWatch people!

I recently thought about starting another army and thought it would be cool to have an Imperium one. Right now I own two Xenos armies (Crons and Nids). Due to both my armies being Xenos ive seen and read some fluff about Deathwatch think they look and read pretty cool!

Ive been reading through this forum for some days now and Ive got a couple of questions...

Now my questions would be whats the best way to build a 13CP list? Any mandatory HQs I have to take? (like Crypteks for Crons) What about troops...The mixed KillTeams get expensive pretty quick...The KT I thought about was 2x Vets with Storm Shield, 2Terminators (cheapest possible), 2Frag Cannons and the rest is „cheap“ Vets.
Are 2 such KT as troops enough or still not enough?

One Unit I HAVE to include is the Leviathan Dreadnought I just love it. Whats the best way to run it? Is there a „superior to all“ build of it? And how exactly do I include one in mylist? I know that Relic units require you to take another non-relic unit of the same role but can I just include one Leviathan in my Deathwatch detachment or is this illegal with the new battle brothers rule?

What I also thought about including would be a fully melee knight. What would fit best here? And is this one compatible with the Leviathan Dred or is a knight and a dred too much?

Ill obviously wait till CA2018 because nobody knows maybe there will be some point changes that make some units more attractive than others.

Is there anything else I have to know (other than buy the codex)? Any synergies, WT, stratagems, units to look out for?

If you ve read so far thanks for reading your help will be appreciated!

TL; DR

I want to start Death Watch pls help

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Hey DeathWatch people!

I recently thought about starting another army and thought it would be cool to have an Imperium one. Right now I own two Xenos armies (Crons and Nids). Due to both my armies being Xenos ive seen and read some fluff about Deathwatch think they look and read pretty cool!

Ive been reading through this forum for some days now and Ive got a couple of questions...

Now my questions would be whats the best way to build a 13CP list? Any mandatory HQs I have to take? (like Crypteks for Crons) What about troops...The mixed KillTeams get expensive pretty quick...The KT I thought about was 2x Vets with Storm Shield, 2Terminators (cheapest possible), 2Frag Cannons and the rest is „cheap“ Vets.
Are 2 such KT as troops enough or still not enough?

One Unit I HAVE to include is the Leviathan Dreadnought I just love it. Whats the best way to run it? Is there a „superior to all“ build of it? And how exactly do I include one in mylist? I know that Relic units require you to take another non-relic unit of the same role but can I just include one Leviathan in my Deathwatch detachment or is this illegal with the new battle brothers rule?

What I also thought about including would be a fully melee knight. What would fit best here? And is this one compatible with the Leviathan Dred or is a knight and a dred too much?

Ill obviously wait till CA2018 because nobody knows maybe there will be some point changes that make some units more attractive than others.

Is there anything else I have to know (other than buy the codex)? Any synergies, WT, stratagems, units to look out for?

If you ve read so far thanks for reading your help will be appreciated!

TL; DR

I want to start Death Watch pls help

Deathwatch can definitely produce a 13 CP build by running two Battalions. It's also pretty viable for the most part, but you'll need to do more than just slot this in as allies. You'll need to really devote a huge chunk of points to make this work, and even then you may end up going MSU as a sacrifice to achieve it. That sacrifice is usually worth it.

As far as mandatory HQs go, Watch Masters are pretty much it. The other options are totally viable and useful, though. Things like Librarians and Watch Captains will be your best choices - both options have a variety of great builds between squat and Primaris versions. Stay away from Chaplains (outside of the FW Chaplain Dreadnought) and avoid Artemis unless you're super dedicated to running him. He sadly just isn't worth his points.

Kill Teams are kind of a double edged sword in a few ways. Toys can get expensive on these Deathwatch boys, so you'll want to really decide what role you want your Kill Teams to serve and stick to that. They still die like marines, so keep that in mind. But they're troops, which is the backbone of Battalions, so you have an easier time fitting in elite, hard hitting options into your baseline squads.

For the Leviathan, I suggest the dual stormcannon array. This thing is an absolute beast. In order to run a Leviathan, you'll need another heavy support option, though. You can go cheap and just grab the FW quad rapier, or double down on Dreads and grab a Mortis to fill that slot. You'll need to pay this heavy support tax no matter what detachment he's in, and it's smartest to include him in a DW one to ensure he's covered by mission tactics and able to benefit from the DW stratagems.

There are a ton of synergies and unique Kill Team builds you can play with. For instance, Aggressors in a Fortis Kill Team let you advance without penalty to assault weapons, so if you add a bunch of auto bolt rifles to your Intercessors in this squad, or include an Inceptor, you get an ultra mobile unit that spits SIA dakka.

Likewise, the discussion in the last page or so on Terminators in Vet squads kind of highlights some of the cool synergies you can take advantage of. Another is a Kill Team with 5 heavy weapons, 3 bikes, and 2 Vanguard Vets - combat squad these into a backfield camping unit and a fast obsec unit that can fall back and still shoot AND charge in the same turn.

Stratagem wise you'll find the +1 to wound strats will be the most impactful, and they benefit most from having larger squads in general. Teleportarium is probably the single most powerful strat in this codex (imho) and gives you the ability to deep strike that Leviathan, if you so choose. The anti-xenos strats are a little erratic in how effective they can be, but super fun and flavourful at the same time.

There are a lot of layers to peel here with DW, and many of these options hinted at above are competitively viable. There are also less super competitive but imo super fun combinations of wargear and mixed squads that you can achieve with these units. Perhaps CA2018 might change up how we think about the different options.

First of all thank you very much for answering!

Now to the KT. I prefer a more shooty army but it shouldnt be useless in melee.

My guess would be to support the leviathan Dred with some kind of „bodyguards“ to counter charge/assault yes even aggressors as chaff close to him to deny charging him and then have a solid shooty base going up the board.
Thats why I also thought about a melee knight (would be a paladin then?) who rushes upfront and literally IS a knight while the rest of the army pushes up.

I always like to have a centerpiece in my army (the Lev. Dred for example) but looking at the hefty cost of the Leviathan PLUS the heavy tax I wonder if ill have enough AT? The one idea id have as AT tax would be Hellblasters with a banner and lieutenant.
So it is legal to put the dred inside the deathwatch detachment? Im using Battlescribe and I obviously cant find him in the deathwatch units for heavy support.
The same goes for aggressors. The moving assault weapon thing sounds really cool but Ive seen them only as Elite units not troops in a KT?

EDIT: About the KT...How many are enough? 2individual KTs? Or 3? Or only one big?

If you're doing a full Deathwatch army, you're looking at 3-6 kill teams of various flavors to hit the double battalion sweet spot, but also to give you the building blocks of individual role teams.

Moreso than any other faction in 8th, DW is at its best when fielding mixed units. Outside of very specific pieces you don't want to be thinking "here's what this model does" you want to be thinking "here's what this model *and* the unit it's being attached to does". The difference in function between a basic tactical or intercessor squad and all the possible permutation of Veteran and Fortis Kill Teams is astronomical.

Also, Deathwatch is not Space Marines. The units and tactics that DW uses are very, very different. For example, there are no Lieutenants or Banner Ancients.

Hi Phaeron, Lemondish has already given some really solid advice, so I won't add much. Just to say yes, a Gallant knight with a pair of Helverins (or Armigers if you want to double down on CC knights) make a great support for a DW btallion, and you have 11CPs too, which is not bad.

As you say, AT is an issue for DW, so make sure you magnetise your knight, so you can run a Crusader too - they take a lot of that load for the DW.

Leviathans with SCAs are just top tier solid units, and yes, are totally legal for DW. You can absolutely fit one in alongside your knights in a 2k game - less likely in 1750pts.

No banner for you unfortunately - we don't get em, which is a problem that's offset by being able to deepstrike hellblasters, which revolutionises the unit, and syncs well with jump pack captains. A 5-man team is an affordable Lev tax, and can snipe a character in T2, or help chip damage off a big target. Don't go 10-man in a tournament though, imo, due to eldar minuses to hit. they sting like hell(blasters).

As for KTs, I go 3 or 4 normally: one backfield camper, one assauly fortis team, and two cheaper teams normally. But they are sooo flexible, you'll find your favourite setup with trial and error. The best thing about DW is how your models can be used in different ways, in different teams. Having said that, you should have at least 5 Stormbolter & chainsword vets asap, and a few stormbolter & shields too. From there you can get a little bit more exotic, but they'll be in every list and are stars.

I don't believe in Bikers in part of a regular Kill Team though. The need to charge after falling back when you're wanting to always shoot is kinda silly. Now I'm still a fan of a Combat Squad Kill Team with 5 Stalker Bolters and then 3-4 Bikers ans 1-2 Vanguard.

Thank you all for the responses!

Im sorry for assuming DW could do the Lieutenant + Banner trick too. Ive only seen it in batreps for several Marine armies and thought DW could do it too

EDIT: Wow...Half of my post got deleted? Nvm...

What buggs me with the Leviathan is the heavy support tax. I just dont know how to fill it (probably going to be 5man Hellblaster Team).

As @grouchoben said I guess Ill have to dig myself through all the possible KillTeams and find the right one for me!

Again thank you all very much you really helped me a lot

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't believe in Bikers in part of a regular Kill Team though. The need to charge after falling back when you're wanting to always shoot is kinda silly. Now I'm still a fan of a Combat Squad Kill Team with 5 Stalker Bolters and then 3-4 Bikers ans 1-2 Vanguard.

Yep, that's why I suggest combat squadding em.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Thank you all for the responses!

Im sorry for assuming DW could do the Lieutenant + Banner trick too. Ive only seen it in batreps for several Marine armies and thought DW could do it too

No worries! DW is unique, but it's not like you can't try and recreate success you've had or seen in other marine armies - just with a DW flavour. A good example is the smash captain - DW flavour often includes a storm bolter with Bane Bolts (a relic) that adds extra damage and mw onto it. It's still an army held back by some of the same issues all marine armies have, though.

Which sadly means if you're looking to run the most competitive options, some of the cooler, more iconic Deathwatch units like Corvus Blackstars and Land Raiders or wargear like heavy thunder hammers are just not up to par right now. You can absolutely still find success with them, but the more subpar units you take, the harder it is to overcome the handicap. But it's an army that you can really enjoy at any level, imho.

Lemondish wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't believe in Bikers in part of a regular Kill Team though. The need to charge after falling back when you're wanting to always shoot is kinda silly. Now I'm still a fan of a Combat Squad Kill Team with 5 Stalker Bolters and then 3-4 Bikers ans 1-2 Vanguard.

Yep, that's why I suggest combat squadding em.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Thank you all for the responses!

Im sorry for assuming DW could do the Lieutenant + Banner trick too. Ive only seen it in batreps for several Marine armies and thought DW could do it too

No worries! DW is unique, but it's not like you can't try and recreate success you've had or seen in other marine armies - just with a DW flavour. A good example is the smash captain - DW flavour often includes a storm bolter with Bane Bolts (a relic) that adds extra damage and mw onto it. It's still an army held back by some of the same issues all marine armies have, though.

Which sadly means if you're looking to run the most competitive options, some of the cooler, more iconic Deathwatch units like Corvus Blackstars and Land Raiders or wargear like heavy thunder hammers are just not up to par right now. You can absolutely still find success with them, but the more subpar units you take, the harder it is to overcome the handicap. But it's an army that you can really enjoy at any level, imho.

I wll have to read the Deathwatch dex in my local store and best buy it to get a good idea of what i like and what i wanna take. I definitely will go for the „rule of cool“ but trust me it will include the leviathan it just screams to me to be used

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
I wll have to read the Deathwatch dex in my local store and best buy it to get a good idea of what i like and what i wanna take. I definitely will go for the „rule of cool“ but trust me it will include the leviathan it just screams to me to be used

"Rule of Cool" is basically the Deathwatch motto. There are so many neat options you can take advantage of that look sweet, though some are definitely traps the way they perform on the table. From a modeling standpoint, you get to do some really fun things, though. You know all those neat and cool looking Primaris Lieutenants they've been pretty consistently releasing?

Doesn't matter that they have a ton of iconography all over the model for a different chapter - you can fit them in here easily as long as you slap a Deathwatch shoulder pad on them and paint them mostly black. Since Deathwatch doesn't have Lieutenants though, you'll need to make a few tweaks to make sure they're up to snuff. That usually means making them a Sergeant, basing them on a 32 instead of a 40, and tweaking their wargear a bit so they're legal. I like giving power swords to my sarges, so this works out super well for me to begin with and gives my Primaris squads some extra flavour (they start to look a bit samey without it).

Is the Deathwatch Start collecting a good deal? Or is it not really worth because of the units you get there?

I guess ill start small as GW probably intends...A small KT for the KT format and build up from troops to the big guns.

Looked at the armiger/gallant units but I feel so much like „that guy“ just considering them

It's a good deal for sure. You also get a conversion sprue to make a DW captain, inquisition symbols for vehicles and extra DW shoulders. The Ven Dread is a viable unit imo, but needs support to shine.

 grouchoben wrote:
It's a good deal for sure. You also get a conversion sprue to make a DW captain, inquisition symbols for vehicles and extra DW shoulders. The Ven Dread is a viable unit imo, but needs support to shine.

So looks to me like going for the codex and 2x Start Collecting box is a good idea...

Ill need some marines anyway for the Fortis Kill Teams PLUS ill have enough options to build the weapons i want to have for KillTeam format. Some HQs Captains are also good to have!

@all

really thank you very much for the quick responses! Definitely makes coming up with a list for the army a lot easier

Do you have any primaris? I'd strongly recommend some intercessors and aggressors over a second start collecting set, but two won't hurt - it's just the order you buy them in.

Intercessors were the standart Primaris troops right? Sorry its my first Imperium AND Marine army.

Can I include Aggressors in a fortis KT? Because im using Battlescribe App and there its not an option

EDIT: and i guess the primaris are there as obj. holders?

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Intercessors were the standart Primaris troops right? Sorry its my first Imperium AND Marine army.

Can I include Aggressors in a fortis KT? Because im using Battlescribe App and there its not an option

EDIT: and i guess the primaris are there as obj. holders?

Fortis Kill teams can incorporate any of the Primaris infantry options. They start with a minimum of four Intercessors and one Intercessor sergeant, but can freely add Intercessors, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Reivers and Inceptors up to a total squad size of ten Primaris.

Adding an Aggressor allows the entire unit to Advance and fire without penalty.

Adding an Inceptor allows the unit to Fall Back and shoot.

Adding a Reiver gives the entire unit the Terror Troops aura (-1 leadership for any enemy unit within 3").

You can craft a Fortis team to fulfill pretty much any tactical role. Objective camper, fast assault bully, major deepstrike threat. You name the objective, there's almost certainly a configuration that can do it.

This just sounds like sooo much fun...I already have one Frag Canon big guns team...

An aggressor assault team would be nice too...

Do DW own any hard hitting melee stuff?

Aggressors technically come packing power fists, and Veteran squads have access to some cool toys (thunder hammers, heavy thunder hammers, your flavor of medium power weapons as well as the Xenophase blade that mucks with Invulnerable saves).

Watch Captains, Chaplains and Apothecaries are also reasonable smash vectors depending on how you kit them out.

I'd avoid melee for the DW entirely if you are looking to play at any casual competitive or higher range. Their melee options (outside of captains) are pretty bad. They are slow and don't do much damage in melee. The Primaris have no good CQC options at all and the standard marines are a trap if you give them melee loadouts.

DW are a shooty army and that is what you always want to be doing with them. With their SIA they shoot extremely well and can really lay down punishing volleys of firepower. In melee however they are only good at bullying weaker units with their high volume of attacks (Chainsword vets) or praying some wounds get through. Their punching power however is always at range with melee being an occasional thing they can do against weaker stuff.

Chaplains, IMO, are a hard pass. Why take them over a captain? They are worse in melee and you typically want to be a range where he is useless. In melee he only lets you re-roll 2s over a captain anyways so it's not a massive deal to bring him along even IF you get into melee.

Yeah, DW is just too fragile to do melee well. They can indeed bring toys that hit hard, but actually surviving to do so is the problem...

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I'd avoid melee for the DW entirely if you are looking to play at any casual competitive or higher range.

Just like with everything Deathwatch, you can't plan or commit to absolutes. You have to be flexible. Avoiding melee at all costs isn't really the name of the game here. These guys aren't Firewarriors. Ask yourself why you don't want to be in combat with DW? 25 to 30 Str 4 attacks is pretty great for chewing up several decent targets - not melee-beatstick-kill-a-Knight-in-a-single-turn-great, but reliable damage from a free upgrade that, with the inclusion of a Vanguard Vet, means you don't sacrifice shooting to do it.

Veterans and Intercessors certainly are not dedicated melee units - they're marines still, so you can't expect wonders here. You don't want to rush either of them headlong into a real melee powerhouse, or put yourself out of position because you want to get into combat - but having said that, don't be afraid to mix it up on the charge to surround a tank, or take on bubble wrap.

With decent positioning, you might end up being immune to shooting for a turn. Wherever or however you deploy them, whether it's deep strike or transport, there will be times where the extra movement from charging a screen or silencing a heavy hitting unit in combat is valuable. I think it happens in nine out of ten games I play. Extra movement from the charge, pile in, and consolidation is stupid useful, especially if you can three point a chaff model.

All I'm saying is don't avoid mixing it up on the table just because the melee options in the codex aren't the most efficient choices.

The Chaplain is a fun unit, but way too expensive for what he brings - that's absolutely true. He's more a liability at that point than anything, and that's unfortunate given how neat those models are. If you absolutely, positively, must have a Chaplain - I'd say go with the Chaplain Dread. Actually not bad at all.

Allow me to correct myself here: I should have said avoid melee builds entirely and not melee itself. I absolutely agree with you in sometimes you want to melee and I worded my original thoughts on that poorly. Building for melee is what you should avoid as they are never going to be good at it compared to actual melee units. However leveraging your not as crappy melee over crappy melee (Standard marines and below) can be very valuable and an entirely legit tactic. It is however a back up strategy and not something ever build a DW list around. Veterans can get a lot of attacks and Primaris are not too far behind. They are largely all s4 Ap -, but that can add up when you have 20+ of them.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Allow me to correct myself here: I should have said avoid melee builds entirely and not melee itself. I absolutely agree with you in sometimes you want to melee and I worded my original thoughts on that poorly. Building for melee is what you should avoid as they are never going to be good at it compared to actual melee units. However leveraging your not as crappy melee over crappy melee (Standard marines and below) can be very valuable and an entirely legit tactic. It is however a back up strategy and not something ever build a DW list around. Veterans can get a lot of attacks and Primaris are not too far behind. They are largely all s4 Ap -, but that can add up when you have 20+ of them.

You know, I totally picked that up after posting and probably should have clarified that the message is for the fresh members to the watch to avoid confusion. Have an exalt for being great and clarifying

Certainly hope that marine melee eventually gains some benefits with balance changes in the future. Black Shields and Sergeants are good vectors for power weapons today because of the extra attacks, but basic marine durability is disappointing and that's really where the big issues come from, imo.

I may be an outlier, but I tend to use the *threat* of melee more than actually meleeing with my Fortis squads. Auto Bolt Intercessors with Agressors +/- Rievers are fantastic for small bully units (either 5Ints + 1 Ag or 6Ints +2 Ags + 2 Rievs then combat squad into 5-man teams).

Use their mobility to get them up the board and threaten squishy units that want to avoid being tied up in melee. Board control is often as important as actually killing things.

Sterling191 wrote:
I may be an outlier, but I tend to use the *threat* of melee more than actually meleeing with my Fortis squads. Auto Bolt Intercessors with Agressors +/- Rievers are fantastic for small bully units (either 5Ints + 1 Ag or 6Ints +2 Ags + 2 Rievs then combat squad into 5-man teams).

Use their mobility to get them up the board and threaten squishy units that want to avoid being tied up in melee. Board control is often as important as actually killing things.

Exactly, and whether it's the threat of melee forcing your opponent back or the extra movement you can get from the charge, pile in, or consolidate, you're improving your board control.

I use the 5Int,1Agg squad a lot. Like, last game I ran 4 of them to spread out and control the board quickly. Haven't considered the Reiver one, though. You find the combat knife/pistols are decent enough to include the extra bodies? I really wish the carbine wasn't unnecessarily more expensive than the auto bolt rifles lol...

Thanks again for the insights

I thought about melee as a thread that is close to you and takes the fire that would normally be directed at say the leviathan.

Thats something I took from necrons as you always wanted to keep your destroyers from harm...so you put a Vault in his face

I guess its just like that that i want to put my enemy in the situation „what do I focus on“ obviously if hes got enough firepower to deal with everything i own its just a bad list on my side (too few win conditions) or just a balance issue (Knights being very strong for example)

Lemondish wrote:


I use the 5Int,1Agg squad a lot. Like, last game I ran 4 of them to spread out and control the board quickly. Haven't considered the Reiver one, though. You find the combat knife/pistols are decent enough to include the extra bodies? I really wish the carbine wasn't unnecessarily more expensive than the auto bolt rifles lol...

I tend to eat the cost on the Carbines actually. It's only two more points than a comparable Intercessor, which is a reasonable tax for what it lets the unit do IMO. The Terror Troops rule alone alongside the 24" Hellfire / 30" Kraken threat range leans into the whole "threat" aspect more than the knife/pistol loadout. The SIA armament is far more valuable than a single close-in attack. It's less CP efficient for sure (as you cant do a cheapo battallion with three near-msu teams) but it gives you some additional options like not combat squadding if you really want to drop a terrifying melee bully unit on somebody.

It may only be a single point of LD, but that's potentially a significant percentage increase of causing downstream casualties in the Morale phase, which magnifies the threat profile of the unit. Which is the whole point of the loadout.