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 bullyboy wrote:

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Running 2 Vendreads this weekend with TLC/MLs. Also have 1 stormshield character that may take the Dominus Aegis if I feel that I could use the invuln save for them and the Corvus Turn 1.


I'm still trying to decide my 2nd HQ choice (1st is a JP TH/SS capt). Currently it's a Libby with stave/bp, but I don't think the psychic powers are that great. I know there will be Knights, AM, Drukhari, SOB, so no real psychic threat at the moment. Going with the Corvus sqd, I think it would be better boosting their shooting (which rules out the cheap Chaplain, although that would yield me another vet) which means a second captain (not enough points for a WM)
So with 98pts to spare, I could take a Capt w combi-melta, power sword for some more AT. Of course the SB is always good, allowing me to take a Xeno blade for example.

Thoughts?

The Aegis DOES work for Dreads, huh? You better screen with some Infantry or Skitarii though.

I think the aegis only works turn 1 if we go first. Because the wording says if we didn't move in our movement phase then we confer the 5+ invul. So either hope to go first or weather the storm.

It works if you go second, you just can't move in your movement phase. You don't get punished just because you haven't had a movement phase.

It won't help the corvus if you don't plan on dropping it into hover mode. I personally use my corvus to deliver a nasty vet frag cannon squad which for me would take it out of shield range. Savvy opponents who go first would either shoot the things that your trying to protect or snipe the character with the shield. Not being a Debbie downer just trying to tell you to not depend on it to help much. I'm an ork player also and I use the kff 5+ invul. It's better than nothing but not worth the relic spot to me personally.

 WisdomLS wrote:
Seeing them in someones list above, am I right in thinking that the FW mortis dreads didn't drop in points for some reason? Seems silly and makes them pretty bad in comparison to a standard with ML +

No they didnt. Im taking them becuase of the ability to grab 6 dreads.

So, let's chat about something a little bit silly for a minute here.

Swagdisco terminators (Pfist+Melta, Combi-Melta, Typhoon missile) have dropped from 132 points in the index to a paltry, a PALTRY 98 after chapter approved.

While you may think that a model with T4 2W costing 98 points is silly, and you may be right, I think there might be something to be said for these guys in that they can be embedded anti-tank shots in your usual Storm'N'Storm veteran squads while taking up only a single model slot.

I tested out the following setup the last time I brought my deathwatch:

6 Storm'n'Storm veterans
1 double BP vanvet (for fall back and shoot)
1 storm bolter/psword terminator
2 swagdisco terminators

That's 364, and giving up 2 possible storm bolters from the squad. Before, I would run 2 more vets in their place, and to get the same firepower I'd need two twinlas/missile dreads (240pts versus the extra 156 for the terminators.)

The terminators are safe from turn 1 alpha strikes, drop in range of my reroll characters, and have the same access to the +1w vs heavy support stratagem that the dreads had, except that I can use it once and have them both benefit. The biggest drawback obviously is that I need to find a way to get those two guys within 12" of a heavy target, and the loss of 8 shots out of the vet squad.

There is however the "power move" factor of bringing 98 point terminators to the table and not giving a feth.

Deathwatch + Indomitus Crusaders Specialist Detachment from the vigilus campaign book

HOLY SMOKES
yes, CP intensive, but extremly brutal possible combinations

10 marine deathwatch intercessor squad with bolt rifles, upgrade to veteran.. get in rapid fire range, play the rapidfire strat to make the bolt rifles rapidfire 2, that's 40 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s at AP-1

any of the strats from that specialist detachment used on 10 man intercessor squads, in combination with deathwatch special issue ammunition will be brutal

as far as "mixed" squads... the squad data sheet has the intercessor keyword.. adding other types of marines to the squad grants special rules, but does not change the keyword, so yes, technicaly would be allowed

the strats would only affect the intercessors in the squad, but still a viable option,

10 deathwatch with stalker bolt rifles, pay 1 CP to give them "sniper" special rule for 1 shooting phase, 10 shots, hit on 3+, wound on 2+(6+ causes mortal wound in addition to normal damage, and DW have strats to give +1 to wound, so mortal wound on 5+ with that) , with AP-2

Gunrunner1775 wrote:
Deathwatch + Indomitus Crusaders Specialist Detachment from the vigilus campaign book

HOLY SMOKES
yes, CP intensive, but extremly brutal possible combinations

10 marine deathwatch intercessor squad with bolt rifles, upgrade to veteran.. get in rapid fire range, play the rapidfire strat to make the bolt rifles rapidfire 2, that's 40 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s at AP-1

any of the strats from that specialist detachment used on 10 man intercessor squads, in combination with deathwatch special issue ammunition will be brutal

as far as "mixed" squads... the squad data sheet has the intercessor keyword.. adding other types of marines to the squad grants special rules, but does not change the keyword, so yes, technicaly would be allowed

the strats would only affect the intercessors in the squad, but still a viable option,

stalker bolt rifles.. gain sniper ability for 1cp for 1 shooting phase, use hellfire shell, hit on 3s, wound on 2s with AP-2

I Brought up this scenario a page or two back and was told the indomitus stuff was for vanilla marines. The Deathwatch supposedly have their own stuff in the vigilus book. I don't have the book so I don't have any concrete answers. If this were allowed it would allow for some bonkers combos.

Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.

have the books in front of me, nothing special dedicated only to deathwatch. nothing indicating deathwatch can not take it

the indomitus crusaders specialist detachment affects Primaris captains, primaris lieutenants, primaris ancients, intercessors and inceptors

the deathwatch codex intercessor sheet has the intercessor keyword, so its eligible (adding an aggressor and/or reaver does not add those keywords to the data sheet, this would make them not eligible if that were the case)

Sterling191 wrote:
Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.

Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)

So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.

Sterling191 wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
Seeing them in someones list above, am I right in thinking that the FW mortis dreads didn't drop in points for some reason? Seems silly and makes them pretty bad in comparison to a standard with ML +

Standard mortis was untouched, the contemptor variant dropped a smidge.

Yeah, the Mortis didn't drop in points sadly. The main reason I still need it over a standard one is the need for Heavy Support to unlock the Leviathan. A contemptor would probably do the job better, but I don't have one right now. The mortis still more or less gets the job done, even if its not optimal.

the_scotsman wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.

Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)

So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.

aye, correct on the watch captain, but would never want to blow my precious CP on those strats on a lone model, and better traits / relics for the deathwatch officers anyway, besides, takeing a watch master is better then takeing a watch captain

the_scotsman wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.

Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)

So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.

The strategem to create the specialist detachment requires a Space Marine detachment. Deathwatch doesn’t have Space Marine detachments.

 bullyboy wrote:


It works if you go second, you just can't move in your movement phase. You don't get punished just because you haven't had a movement phase.

Yeah, I think the issue is that it doesn't work if you go first since you don't have a previous movement phase to trigger it. Or so the thinking goes. I believe there was an FAQ for a similar rule that dealt with that, but I'm having trouble finding it.

the_scotsman wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.

Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)

So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.

Incorrect - it requires a Space Marine detachment.

the_scotsman wrote:
So, let's chat about something a little bit silly for a minute here.

Swagdisco terminators (Pfist+Melta, Combi-Melta, Typhoon missile) have dropped from 132 points in the index to a paltry, a PALTRY 98 after chapter approved.

Swagdisco, really?

Silly and illegal. Standard dw terminators cannot take combi-weapons.

 LunarSol wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:
Seeing them in someones list above, am I right in thinking that the FW mortis dreads didn't drop in points for some reason? Seems silly and makes them pretty bad in comparison to a standard with ML +

Standard mortis was untouched, the contemptor variant dropped a smidge.

Yeah, the Mortis didn't drop in points sadly. The main reason I still need it over a standard one is the need for Heavy Support to unlock the Leviathan. A contemptor would probably do the job better, but I don't have one right now. The mortis still more or less gets the job done, even if its not optimal.

FWIW, running the numbers:

The changes to the cost of the actual dreadnoughts aren't all that significant, but the change in cost to the weapons matters quite a bit. Overall, the Contemptor has taken the top slot as our most efficient armor cracker. The Mortis actually remains more efficient than either a regular or venerable Dreadnought, but it incredibly close and venerables have a damage shrug. It's actually pretty... balanced? The Contemptor Mortis wins out by a fair bit though. That guy got good.

The Leviathan definitely lost out, just largely because LasCannons and Missile Launchers got a big enough drop per shot that the Storm Cannons are no longer more efficient vs things that dedicated armor cracking is designed to handle. That said, there's still nothing that takes DW buffs like this guy, and regardless of what the math says over an infinite timeline, his damage is almost certainly going to be more consistent than the low volume shots that are prone to blank vs accuracy, invul or just the variable damage.

So... yeah. Overall Dreadnoughts across the board evened out quite a bit and you probably don't NEED to go with the FW options nearly as badly. Haven't really looked into the CCW options. I'd be curious to see if any of them work out.

Mchagen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
So, let's chat about something a little bit silly for a minute here.

Swagdisco terminators (Pfist+Melta, Combi-Melta, Typhoon missile) have dropped from 132 points in the index to a paltry, a PALTRY 98 after chapter approved.

Swagdisco, really?

Silly and illegal. Standard dw terminators cannot take combi-weapons.

Damn, you're right - I had my deathwatch terminator loadouts mixed up with my Space Wolf terminator loadouts, they can take combi-weapons. If only! Still, I suppose there's no stopping a Typhoon/Meltagun/Storm Bolter terminator from splitting his fire, shooting his three anti tank shots at a tank and his storm bolter at what the rest of the squad is shooting. Still the same tradeoff vs the lascannon/missile launcher dreadnought, but without the loss of firepower from the squad.

It costs 64 points to upgrade a Storm Bolter/Storm Shield vet to a terminator with MeltaFist and Typhoon. Compare to 120 for a separate Dreadnought with TL Las/ML.

Pros:

-Hidden in DS turn 1
-56 points less for the same number of anti-tank shots
-If you take multiples in a squad, you can get the "+1 to wound vs Heavy Support" stratagem on more of your anti tank units
-Probably dropping within range of your reroll aura characters
-Hidden behind 8-9 3++ wounds

Cons:

-Can't influence the game turn 1
-Shorter range, and must be both within 12" of an enemy heavy unit you want to use the Meltagun of, and within 12" of an enemy unit you want to doubletap with your storm bolters
-tank toughness
-2 lascannon shots+1 missile shot is better than 2 missile shots+1 melta shot

It's got some cons to be sure, but if you look at the damage you can bring down for the price, melta/missile terminators deal nearly twice as much damage vs tanks if they have their meltas in range, and only 0.4 damage less if they only have their missiles in range.

FWIW, it's not as efficient as the Mortis options (almost entirely because S8 vs T8 isn't as good as S9), but its fairly high on the charts. I wouldn't rule it out. Interestingly, you NEED the Melta there. The missiles alone don't quite cut it.

Lemondish wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:


It works if you go second, you just can't move in your movement phase. You don't get punished just because you haven't had a movement phase.

Yeah, I think the issue is that it doesn't work if you go first since you don't have a previous movement phase to trigger it. Or so the thinking goes. I believe there was an FAQ for a similar rule that dealt with that, but I'm having trouble finding it.

the_scotsman wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.

Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)

So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.

Incorrect - it requires a Space Marine detachment.

I remember seeing something similar, along the lines of just because you haven't had that phase yet doesn't trigger the effect. It would be dumb if he did. I'll have to find it. It basically makes the relic worthless if it does that.

Has anyone converted a TermiCap. with 1x Melta and 1x PowerFist melta? Im interested in doing one myself but dont know where to get all the bits from.

 LunarSol wrote:
FWIW, it's not as efficient as the Mortis options (almost entirely because S8 vs T8 isn't as good as S9), but its fairly high on the charts. I wouldn't rule it out. Interestingly, you NEED the Melta there. The missiles alone don't quite cut it.

Counterpoint on the quad-las dreads is that they attract fire like nobody's business, and at T7/3+ they pop pretty easily.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
FWIW, it's not as efficient as the Mortis options (almost entirely because S8 vs T8 isn't as good as S9), but its fairly high on the charts. I wouldn't rule it out. Interestingly, you NEED the Melta there. The missiles alone don't quite cut it.

Counterpoint on the quad-las dreads is that they attract fire like nobody's business, and at T7/3+ they pop pretty easily.

That's exactly why I'm considering the melta termies. Now that deathwatch squads are rock-solid with wall to wall stormshields and usually also 2+5++ bodies in there just waiting for lasgun shots, it seems like a very nice place to sneak my anti-tank firepower into where it's not just "Here's my couple of T7 W8 bodies that I have to deploy in line of sight or they get -1 to hit on the turn they move, pretty please don't shoot them thanks"

I find if you don't saturate a defensive profile with multiple targets, it's just not worth taking that defensive profile. In a list where I only have 2 dreads, those dreads just eat every antitank weapon in my opponent's 2000 points and die. If I were running dreads Id want to make sure I have rhinos, maybe a land raider or an allied knight on the board to distract from them for a round or two.

 LunarSol wrote:
FWIW, it's not as efficient as the Mortis options (almost entirely because S8 vs T8 isn't as good as S9), but its fairly high on the charts. I wouldn't rule it out. Interestingly, you NEED the Melta there. The missiles alone don't quite cut it.

like the description above Lunar, i am in the process of trying to figure what dreads to go with atm for antitank and backup. I have 3 vens, 3 HB Mortis Dreads and a Levi. I dont have the Contemptors however after your post i am considering them maybe 3 ? i really wanted to run 6 for fun with my 4 vet squads but im thinking 3 LC Mortis Contemptors sound too good to pass up.

 zedsdead wrote:


like the description above Lunar, i am in the process of trying to figure what dreads to go with atm for antitank and backup. I have 3 vens, 3 HB Mortis Dreads and a Levi. I dont have the Contemptors however after your post i am considering them maybe 3 ? i really wanted to run 6 for fun with my 4 vet squads but im thinking 3 LC Mortis Contemptors sound too good to pass up.

3 LC/ML Vens + 3 QL Mortis Contemptors supplemented with Vet MLs and an Aegis is where my brain is going for serious AT concentration. Do it right and all have a 5++, which gives them a chance to survive turn 1 counter-battery fire.

Sterling191 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:


like the description above Lunar, i am in the process of trying to figure what dreads to go with atm for antitank and backup. I have 3 vens, 3 HB Mortis Dreads and a Levi. I dont have the Contemptors however after your post i am considering them maybe 3 ? i really wanted to run 6 for fun with my 4 vet squads but im thinking 3 LC Mortis Contemptors sound too good to pass up.

3 LC/ML Vens + 3 QL Mortis Contemptors supplemented with Vet MLs and an Aegis is where my brain is going for serious AT concentration. Do it right and all have a 5++, which gives them a chance to survive turn 1 counter-battery fire.

love it.. not sure how you get 5++ on all the dreads though

 zedsdead wrote:

love it.. not sure how you get 5++ on all the dreads though

Mortis Contemptors have an innate 5++. Park a Watch Cappy with the Aegis in the middle of your regular VenDreads and they'll inherit the 5++.

Hey presto, parking lot of 18 BS 2+ lascannons for ~1000 points.

That's such a chunk of the list for sure.

Sterling191 wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

love it.. not sure how you get 5++ on all the dreads though

Mortis Contemptors have an innate 5++. Park a Watch Cappy with the Aegis in the middle of your regular VenDreads and they'll inherit the 5++.

Hey presto, parking lot of 18 BS 2+ lascannons for ~1000 points.

heh works for me. Add in 3 10 man vet squads, 2 watch capts and loyal 32 for CP battery and bubble wrap...seems pretty solid

Just ran the numbers, its 1012 for the dreads plus an Aegis Cappy with a Stormbolter / Stalker Boltgun (i usually give my buffer cappies the Stalker, but YMMV).

That's still a good chunk of points to play with.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Has anyone converted a TermiCap. with 1x Melta and 1x PowerFist melta? Im interested in doing one myself but dont know where to get all the bits from.

I have 2 termie captains with 1x Meltagun/power fist & 1x combi-melta each from norm SM termie captains and 1 converted from a GK paladin

Norm ones:
1. I took the normal plastic termi-captain
2. Used a melta-fist from the Salamanders Space Marine Terminator GARRAN BRANATAR (Deathwatch Overkill 40K, I bought like 15 of this model from bits sites just for the melta/pf to save on conversion for other models. Is easy conversion if want to make it from scratch, just the pf/mg, just a chainfist cut the blade off and put a meltagun on) I found easier to just buy and looks better. However, if better skill than me go the cheaper option).
3. Blood angel terminator librarian (DW version idk if still available, I bought a few). If get the normal BA Termie Lib still has a combi-melta for a termie (can substitute for a chaos termie combi-melta, but I don't think looks as good)
3. A bit of green stuff and time.

I did a third one up same principle just used a GK paladin as the base, looks better. However, all look good.

Obviously all have DW shoulder pads and different chapter shoulder pads (I went Red scorpions, Salamanders and Minotaurs for mine).

All look awesome and seamless.

Since chapter approved 2018 I think they are cheaper at 134pts. I still think the WC with JP, Combi-melta and TH better option for cheaper points, just cause of move (is big) etc and support options, or the classic JP/TH/SS (though I don't rate as much, why waste your BS 2+).

EDIT: If I could do all my termies again I would just buy GK termies, shave off some bits, hoods etc and just add some DW bits, DW shoulders and various other chapter shouders etc (they pretty much have same symbology as norm DW marines on their legs and chest etc, just paint them DW) atm I am half and half and looks ok, but I am slowly replacing my 'norm termies' with GK cause they look good (personal preference).

Ok, so is this about the most competitive way to run a pure Deathwatch army?


2x battalion, 1x vanguard, total CP 13/14

2 watch masters, one with tome of ectoclades, one with bane bolts
3 watch captains/w jumppack, storm shield, powerfist

6 squads 5x veterans, all storm shields/storm bolters

3 squads 3x bikers, searg/w storm shield, 2x bolt pistols

3x ven dreads/w twin laz, missle
1x Redemptor dread/w 2x stormbolters, Icarus rocket pod, macro plasma incinerator, heavy flamer, redemptor fist.


Comes out to 51 wounds with 3++, another 10 with 4++, another 12 t5 wounds, and 37 t7 wounds. Offence includes 6 lazcannons, 3 missles, the Redemptor, about 39 stormbolters with SIA, the two watch captains (one with bane bolts), a bunch of T4 melee, and 12 powerfists.

Pretty tasty list, but I'd drop the redemptor and bikes to make room for a Lev, and drop one captain for a libby with MoH (for the Lev) and NZ for a hail mary. You'd need a squad of hellblasters or a quad cannon too for the lev tax. Something like this:

Librarian [6 PL, 100pts]: Force stave, Storm Bolter
Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts]
Watch Captain [7 PL, 118pts]: Jump Pack, Storm Bolter, Thunder hammer
Watch Captain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 134pts]: Combi-melta & Power Fist and Meltagun
6x Veterans [9 PL, 100pts]
2x Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 140pts]: TL & ML
Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 152pts]: TL & Fist
Hellblasters [8 PL, 165pts]
Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 321pts]: SCA & 3 HKM

You'd be dropping some mobility with the bikes, and one cp with the vanguard, but picking up a lot lot more gun. Redemptor's loadout is a bit redundant with all the SIA SBs, imo, but I see why he's very viable now.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd probably stick a heavy bolter in one of the squads actually, and lose 1 HKM on the dread, so I can access 2 MW strats a turn.