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Good list but you've got to have thunderhammer instead of fists on the wc

Thunderhammers aren't worth the increased points if you cant add extra attacks to the captains (like you can with blood angels).

Yeah the damage is better on average, but you can theoretically get the same damage with the fists for less than half the price.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Thunderhammers aren't worth the increased points if you cant add extra attacks to the captains (like you can with blood angels).

Yeah the damage is better on average, but you can theoretically get the same damage with the fists for less than half the price.

Thurnder Hammer is good in that it is consistent than Powerfist. But for the price of 1 Hammer on Character, you can get 2 Powerfists and almost 1 Storm bolter. So for the points the PF wins out.

However, I suddenly realized that on Characters, the consistence in damage may be very important. Since Character is a single model now so it can be vunerable when they are only T4/T5 with 5-7 wounds. For example, if you charged the Captain into a Carnifex ot DeffDread, and somehow inflict 3 unsaved wounds, the differences between TH and PF maybe the glory of big game hunter and getting the Scything Talon or Dread Claws punch back into the face and risking losing your valuable HQ. It could be a tough call.

Yeah its all about what your using the captains for.

I have them in the list to scare people (makes them play passively or try to hide stuff) and to score objectives.


They can drop in where I need them, and threaten basically anything.


As I said, if I had a way to reliably get them up to 7 attacks, the thunderhammer wins out easily, but I don't.

Powefists are trash compared to THs. Both weapons penalise your ability to hit, and both wound on a 4+ against their main target, so the few that do get through need to count. The reason they dropped to a more realistic price is that they are a lot worse.

You can't predict damage with any reliability with a 1d3 weapon, and if you're risking one of your caps in a charge & cc, you have to know if it's worth it, if it can get the job done. Unles the target is already near dead, or isn't worth your time, then you can't be sure with a PF.

Finally, you can indeed add extra attacks to the captains - fight again and, cheaper, fight again on death, are both very common strats for us, assuming a double batallion for CPs, especially against knights. Neither are really worth it in the same way, with a PF.

I know we were tanking about Ven Dreads with the LasML loadout, but how do we feel about making that Lascannon a Plasma Cannon? On average it'll do the same number of shots, and it IS significantly cheaper. Main downside is of course only 2 damage compared to an average of 3.5, and S8 vs S9, but that's only relevant for Knights.

I bring this up as I'm frantically listhammering, and I notice this is 24 points saved. I feel that's significant enough to warrant a little bit of discussion.

Plasma cannon on dreads is a terrible idea for the same reason as a missile launcher: It’s sticking a single devastate-equivalent weapon onto a slot that can hold two of them. Inefficient use of the platform.

changemod wrote:
Plasma cannon on dreads is a terrible idea for the same reason as a missile launcher: It’s sticking a single devastate-equivalent weapon onto a slot that can hold two of them. Inefficient use of the platform.

It's usually implied you pair the ML with the Las, so I was more playing around with the thought of going PC/ML instead of LC/ML. Those points totally add up when you run 3 Dreads.

Either that or I'll just stick to Rifleman.

Got 2 games in with my DW yesterday before 3rd was abandoned due to power outage at store.

First was awful vs Knights with tempestus allies playing the relic. I deployed poorly in hindsight but also got zero love from my At units. My vendreads and razorback got plenty of AT through the void shields and I never rolled more than a 2 for damage on my las and missiles, even with a reroll. The most damage I did to a knight was 5 when he charged some frag cannons. It was a disaster basically. Knights just tore though my veterans with their gatlings.

Second game was vs IG which I think I woul have won if the power didn't go out. The army played very well taking out a lot of his force for little loss. I was losing the VP battle early due to his board control, but the mobility of the corvus, deepstriking vets and beacon angelis was very effective.

Really did not like the poor showing from the ven dreads though, very disheartening vs knights. The fickle nature of the D6 (granted, he failed a ton of his saves too)

Lev with Fortis is my preferred anti-knight gun dread, funnily enough. 20+3 shots, hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s/3s, each doing the same damage as an unlucky lascannon, does 15 damage with WM support & Fortis, against a 4++ knight.

It's counter-intuitive, because of S7, but there you have it. I know I always bang on about our Levs, but they really do solve all problems, if you can keep them 1) in range, 2) with MoH buff and 3) out of melee...

 grouchoben wrote:
Lev with Fortis is my preferred anti-knight gun dread, funnily enough. 20+3 shots, hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s/3s, each doing the same damage as an unlucky lascannon, does 15 damage with WM support & Fortis, against a 4++ knight.

It's counter-intuitive, because of S7, but there you have it. I know I always bang on about our Levs, but they really do solve all problems, if you can keep them 1) in range, 2) with MoH buff and 3) out of melee...

Vs Guard, using the +1 W strat twice was great wounding T8 an 4s instead of 5s for my corvus or vet sqd. Would probably work on a dread. Really was hoping not to lean on Forgeworld, not a big fan.

My personal experience. I have always found DW play better with more troops (vet squads, with role efficient weapons and/or/plus Vanvets/termie/biker etc and/or if need teleport strat) than with vehicles, why I always suggest more vet squads (I would rather jack my tele sqauds with combi-plasma and get a captain than get a vehicle). Though squads always have had a few plebs with Storm shields, this is amplified with the reduced cost.

Exception is rapiers with quad launchers (still 85pts i think, they are pretty good if can get them to within 24" for anti-armor/heavy infantry and have some anti-infantry rest of the time)

But looking at vehicles I like the look of:

The new points cost of the Contemptor mortis dread now. With 2x Twin Auto Cannon (is 8 shots st7 -1AP 2D) is 148pts. 2x twin las is at 168pts. Degrading profile but has a built in 5+ inv. Something to look at anyway.

To the argument of TH or PF on a main character/forward pushing combat character, I will always take a TH (is it worth 12 points over a pf, I think so) the ability to do flat 3 dmge is a major boon to you and threat to the opponent. Backline characters not so much.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Lev with Fortis is my preferred anti-knight gun dread, funnily enough. 20+3 shots, hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s/3s, each doing the same damage as an unlucky lascannon, does 15 damage with WM support & Fortis, against a 4++ knight.

It's counter-intuitive, because of S7, but there you have it. I know I always bang on about our Levs, but they really do solve all problems, if you can keep them 1) in range, 2) with MoH buff and 3) out of melee...

Really was hoping not to lean on Forgeworld, not a big fan.

If don't want to play Forgeworld, try plan an army total foot slogger (3x tele strat units) some other fast movers etc etc (depends on points level). Soon as I did that I found DW flourished (at the start of 8th I was trying to play the narrative of fast insertion this unit needs a transport etc was ok, then when codex dropped I thought... these are DW they can stealth into whatever already they are the elite...full foot slogger (tele strat some units)...best thing I did).

Suites my play style, maybe try that for you (I then added some of my vehicles back/forgeworld etc to try, always came back to full foot).

Full foot means combat squaded Vets/bikers/Vanvets squads, various mixed squads etc etc.

EDIT: I love consistent damage, it is a personal preference (I like combi-plasmas, TH's etc, anything that has a flat damage, I prefer consistent. Hence, I run a lot of combi-plasma etc).

Using vehicle is fun but my infantry lists always do best. I like to use the redemptor at times and teleport it. 11" charged a triarch stalker and some immortals the other day and punched their tin faces in after blasting apart a warrior squad he was screening with.

are Assassins single model characters? Or can I take 2 vindicare assassins? And what would be the best way to take some? Only by taking 3 in a vamguard detachment oraux detachments?

They are single model characters. Vinidicare's still at 80 points idk (I am gunna trial them as well I have 3 iterations of the model). I think you have to take 3 assassins as a vanguard (don't get +1CP) or if only want to take 1-2 have to pay the -1CP to take an auxiliary support).

Spectral Ceramite wrote:
They are single model characters. Vinidicare's still at 80 points idk (I am gunna trial them as well I have 3 iterations of the model). I think you have to take 3 assassins as a vanguard (don't get +1CP) or if only want to take 1-2 have to pay the -1CP to take an auxiliary support).

Ok...the single model somehow breaks them for me...one vindicare isnt enough (or not reliable enough) for the things I wanted him to do as all important things have some sort healing in one form or another. Thanks for clarification!

Vindicares are probably the best sniper in the game and still not terribly great. If you want them, you need the three for redundancy.

In fact, all the Assassins require redundancy. A single Eversor will be brought down, but having to kill two more is firepower not directed at your Deathwatch.

Assassins are NOT unique characters. I think that's what was being asked.

You can take up to three of any Assassin, due to Rule of Three.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assassins are NOT unique characters. I think that's what was being asked.

You can take up to three of any Assassin, due to Rule of Three.

Yes this was the intension of the question. So I CAN take 2 PLUS aggressors in a Vanguard detachment (without the CP)?

1 Assassin is not enough, 2 would be pretty nice

Yes you can take multiples just like any other datasheet. In my Index Sisters lists I would run 2 Eversors, a Callidus, and 2 Culexus

Now another question I have:

Im still struggling a bit with AT. So far Ive found my favorite KillTeam loadouts.

Now I got the Leviathan Dread. Not only that he looks incredible he‘s also a beast of a weapons platform!

I have 2 VenDreads with LasCan and ML.

Im thinking about adding 2 Razorbacks with TwinLas OR a Repulsor to my collection.
The Repulsor would hold a Hellblaster Team (Tax Unit for the Lev).

Whats the current opinion on Predators? Ive read that they are subpar and one should just take more Razorbacks?

CA2018 failed in balancing Knights so what can be done to fight them? Bring a Knight ourselves? Would be possible too but since their codex dropped I detest them.


EDIT:
Ive found that a big weakness Knights have is melee thats why Im allying BA SmashCaptains but that costs almost all my CP.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Now another question I have:

Im still struggling a bit with AT. So far Ive found my favorite KillTeam loadouts.

Now I got the Leviathan Dread. Not only that he looks incredible he‘s also a beast of a weapons platform!

I have 2 VenDreads with LasCan and ML.

Im thinking about adding 2 Razorbacks with TwinLas OR a Repulsor to my collection.
The Repulsor would hold a Hellblaster Team (Tax Unit for the Lev).

Whats the current opinion on Predators? Ive read that they are subpar and one should just take more Razorbacks?

CA2018 failed in balancing Knights so what can be done to fight them? Bring a Knight ourselves? Would be possible too but since their codex dropped I detest them.


EDIT:
Ive found that a big weakness Knights have is melee thats why Im allying BA SmashCaptains but that costs almost all my CP.

well, deathwatch don't have access to Predators so that takes care of your problem

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Assassins are NOT unique characters. I think that's what was being asked.

You can take up to three of any Assassin, due to Rule of Three.

Yes this was the intension of the question. So I CAN take 2 PLUS aggressors in a Vanguard detachment (without the CP)?

1 Assassin is not enough, 2 would be pretty nice

No to THAT.

Due to the Battle Brothers rule, you cannot mix units who's only common Keyword is Imperium within a detachment.

But you could take, say, 2 Vindicares and a Callidus.

 bullyboy wrote:

well, deathwatch don't have access to Predators so that takes care of your problem

They can take the forge world Deimos version (which can be recustomized into the vanilla variant).

Not really worth it IMO given how badly Predators are in the current meta. If you want Quad-Las, the Contemptor Mortis is the way to go. It's cheaper (180 vs 168), with a 2+ BS/WS and a 5++, but you lose 4 wounds.

Sterling191 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

well, deathwatch don't have access to Predators so that takes care of your problem

They can take the forge world Deimos version (which can be recustomized into the vanilla variant).

Not really worth it IMO given how badly Predators are in the current meta. If you want Quad-Las, the Contemptor Mortis is the way to go. It's cheaper (180 vs 168), with a 2+ BS/WS and a 5++, but you lose 4 wounds.

The 5++ probably goes further than the extra 4 wounds I would imagine.

I would ally the Predators as answer to „Deathwatch can not take them“ but the Pred vs. Contemptor Dread comparison basically answered it for me.

Any tactics on what to do vs. Knights? (also pls. consider their 3++ vs shooting and possible screen)

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
I would ally the Predators as answer to „Deathwatch can not take them“ but the Pred vs. Contemptor Dread comparison basically answered it for me.

Any tactics on what to do vs. Knights? (also pls. consider their 3++ vs shooting and possible screen)

You can cause them to fall back via charging them with Bikers. Since they can't walk over Bikers you can slowly push them back.

That's about it though. Killing them is very inefficient if you're going pure codex.

And they'll slaughter the bikers.

12 attacks at 3+ gives 8 hits, 16/3 wounds, and 32/9 failed saves. That's 2-3 dead bikers a round.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And they'll slaughter the bikers.

12 attacks at 3+ gives 8 hits, 16/3 wounds, and 32/9 failed saves. That's 2-3 dead bikers a round.

If it means taking a Castellan in a soup list out of the fight for a turn or two though, it might well be worth it depending on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The 5++ probably goes further than the extra 4 wounds I would imagine.

Likely. Though...now that I'm looking at the wording, I think the Aegis would work on the Deimos (It has <CHAPTER> which becomes DEATHWATCH ), as well as possibly mission tactics?

Sterling191 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And they'll slaughter the bikers.

12 attacks at 3+ gives 8 hits, 16/3 wounds, and 32/9 failed saves. That's 2-3 dead bikers a round.

If it means taking a Castellan in a soup list out of the fight for a turn or two though, it might well be worth it depending on the table.

The Castellan can walk back just over an inch and unload. Unless you get enough bikers around it that they can survive the stomps with enough models to tri-point the Castellan...

Castellan, it should be noted, gets only 6 hits, 4 wounds, 8/3 failed save. Worse WS.