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If it's a Valiant, they have 10.5 hits, 3.5 wounds, maybe 1-2 go through. Plus miscellaneous hitting on 6s.
Castellan is a bit tougher, with sheer number of more powerful shots, but still not that big a deal to a Knight on overwatch.
5 attacks gets you 25/6 hits, 125/36 wounds punching right through their armor (unless they have Sainted Ion or Sanctuary) and doing 24 damage pretty reliably.
One-rounding a Questoris, easy. A Dominous... Little tougher. But soften it up a little and you should be good.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
The other thing Ive seen is playing a Knight Lance...less dmg output but MUCH MUCH more survivable due to 3++ save in combat and the enemy only hitting on 6s...but this is very power game-ish at this point
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: The other thing Ive seen is playing a Knight Lance...less dmg output but MUCH MUCH more survivable due to 3++ save in combat and the enemy only hitting on 6s...but this is very power game-ish at this point
Um... Is that FW? Because I have no idea how to achieve that with my Codex.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: The other thing Ive seen is playing a Knight Lance...less dmg output but MUCH MUCH more survivable due to 3++ save in combat and the enemy only hitting on 6s...but this is very power game-ish at this point
Um... Is that FW? Because I have no idea how to achieve that with my Codex.
Yeee Im sorry is off topic
FW Knights...
I guess the best way to stay PURE and have a chance vs. Knights is going for a Lev. with Dread support.
Another thing Ive read is charging a VanVets squad with HTH and use the +1 to wound strat on them to do 6dmg on 5+
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/26 10:02:45
JNAProductions wrote: Assassins are NOT unique characters. I think that's what was being asked.
You can take up to three of any Assassin, due to Rule of Three.
Yes this was the intension of the question. So I CAN take 2 PLUS aggressors in a Vanguard detachment (without the CP)?
1 Assassin is not enough, 2 would be pretty nice
No to THAT.
Due to the Battle Brothers rule, you cannot mix units who's only common Keyword is Imperium within a detachment.
But you could take, say, 2 Vindicares and a Callidus.
So that wasn't the intention of the question it was in fact about what you could take in a detachment. You can take 3 of each different type of assassin, just the rules of how to include them are how I stated before, pretty sure. But ye I am gunna trial 3 vinid's this weekend as well again now with reduced points cost. But for a sniper that hits and wound on 2's (for me they always miss )
____________________
KNIGHTS
In regards to taking out knights etc in a DW army. It all depends on what type of army you run, the missions you play and points level.
When I play at 1750-2k, I play against opponents with a knight a lot. For my type of army, because I run mostly mixed vet squads and a lot of storm shields (various shooting weapons depends on what I want their role to be), I just ignore them. I kill everything else viable (shoot the knights occasionally if no other viable target). It depends on the mission if need scoring units, how many other vehicles they have etc to my kill priority. Once most of the other stuff is dead, irrelevant or tied up, I focus on the knight.
If its a knight army with the loyal 32 etc. I kill the screen first (so I can get close to a knight if want and it kills a lot of their big objective secure units) and then plink them down while playing the objectives etc.I try take out hellverens first of the knights or those with high volume firepower (avenger gat etc). Try bracket big knights where I can (unless they are running Hawkshroud, then is focus down time). This is because I run mainly infantry and volume of fire is my biggest threat.
When you have enough invulnerable saves and most of your guys are 1w plus pretty much your entire army is objective secured, multi-damage and high AP doesn't matter much to you. Not that it's easy but it's not an army that I fear.
Totally different if run primaris or vehicles or a lot of vehicles etc etc. As I said at start: "It all depends on what type of army you run, the missions you play and points level".
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/12/26 10:54:13
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters 20k Deathwatch 10k Sisters of Battle 3k Inquisition 4k Grey Knights 5k Imperial Guard 4k Harlequins 8k Tau
A couple of days ago I had a mini 1k tourney and my second game was against a Knight army (2 Knights and one Armiger).
I played a Deathwatch battalion with 2 mixed Vet squads (Plasma, FragCanons and SS, in one team I had a Termi) and a BA patrol with Captain Smash.
We played the mission were you roll for an active obj. and on a 6 all obj. are active.
I had first turn and managed to kill his Gallant with the SmashCap (who did die too in the process). I could have gone for one more obj. as first turn I got the 6 so all obj. had been active. This was my first mistake.
2nd turn I rolled a 1 and dropped my Librarian there and my Vet Squad that tried to take out the Knight (did a couple of wounds to it but didnt manage to kill it). The armiger killed the scouts placed on a different obj. and the other Knight killed the biker/VenVat team.
3rd turn my other mixed squad managed to kill the armiger while staying on the obj. but the big knight killed my librarian so i didnt get the 2points for the obj.
4th turn I rolled a 1 again and his knight was standing on that obj. even though it was almost dead I could kill it (6wounds were left)
last turn (we played only to the 5th because of time) I rolled a 3 where my combat squaded Vet team was and he didnt manage to kill all 5 of them so we ultimately drew the game 11 - 11
Had I not lost the Bike Team in my furst round and would have been a bit luckier with the active obj. rolls I think I would have won that match.
But still I think if not for the smash cap I dont know how I would manage to deal with two knights just with a battalion of deathwatch in 1k points
Killing multiple knights is much less difficult than killing one knight, because without the invuln save turned up to 11, DW frag cannons are the ideal weapon for knight killing - S9, and you only lose out on 1AP. if your opponent has lots of knights, it's also nice because you'll pretty much be rerolling 1s to wound against his entire army. And if you've got a Lord of War as your Warlord (as almost all mostly-knight armies tend to) you can use both Malleus and Decapitation on the same target in a pinch.
the biggest struggle for deathwatch vs knights is getting them to commit their rotate ion without yourself having to commit your deep strikers to the target that's going to rotate on you. You have to play a bit of mindgames with that - I've been in a situation where my opponent had two big knights on the board, one with the 4++ trait and the other without, he could use Rotate ion to give both 4++ or give the one a 3++ and the other a 5++. I dropped a frag cannon team near the native 4++ one and a storm bolter team near the other, making him commit the rotate ion to protect against the frag cannons. Frag cannons did like 4 wounds total, but everything else in my army fired at the other guy and brought him down really quickly.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
I agree with the scotsman, gives a good run down of possibilities at 1k point Knights or vs Knight armies in general (I think combi-plasma, using only plasma part is ideal (for massed fire power and points etc vs knights), but you always have atleast 1+ frag cannon per squad (depending on role, maybe not) so they are good as well, this is my personal preference. That is if you don't know that knights are the enemy, so gives versatility, if you do know than frags or totally different type army.
You also have to think from sounds of it that is your first game (against knights). It takes time to develop what you want and how to play, asking people what to do after 1 match? Maybe play a few more and find for yourself what you like. If that doesn't work... I could be wrong though maybe you have played a gak tonne and not done great, then this is the place to ask. Just saying so you find your own shtick first, before adopt other players perceptions.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/12/26 13:41:24
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters 20k Deathwatch 10k Sisters of Battle 3k Inquisition 4k Grey Knights 5k Imperial Guard 4k Harlequins 8k Tau
Spectral Ceramite wrote: I agree with the scotsman, gives a good run down of possibilities at 1k points or vs Knight armies in general (I think combi-plasma, using only plasma part is ideal (for massed fire power and points etc), but you always have atleast 1 frag cannon per squad (depending on role, maybe not) so they are good as well) this is my personal preference. You also have to think from sounds of it that is your first game (against knights). It takes time to develop what you want and how to play, asking people what to do after 1 match? Maybe play a few more and find for yourself what you like. If that doesn't work...
In terms of probabilities I like S9 weapons like lascannons way more than I like S8 weapons, because if you can bump an attack to a 2+ (which we can do with our strats) and you're rerolling 1s, you get far more mileage out of that reroll 1 than you would with reroll 1s wounding on 3s or 4s.
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 4s: Adds 8.5% chance to wound
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 3s: adds 11.3% chance to wound
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 2s: Adds 14.2% chance to wound.
A full die shift is 16.7%, so to get full worth out of a 2cp doctrine stratagem I always want to be getting myself to 2s rerolling 1s if possible. The problem is, of course, that Deathwatch have pisspoor access to lascannons compared to other imperial factions, to get a really solid one, you want to have a quadlas mortis contemptor dreadnought, who I LOVE at 168 points. 28 over the twinlas/ML dread gets me 1 missile upgraded to a lascannon shot, an extra lascannon shot (there's 20 of your 28 points right there), 2 extra wounds and a 5+ invuln save. Delicious. and honestly not that hard to convert out of the plastic contemptor kit, because you can quite easily take any weapon designed to be a sponson (my bit of choice would be an admech ironstrider cognis twin lascannon, the smallest paired lascannon bit out there and easily available on ebay for ~5$ because it's almost always an extra in the kit that most people build as the lancer variant)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Spectral Ceramite wrote: I agree with the scotsman, gives a good run down of possibilities at 1k points or vs Knight armies in general (I think combi-plasma, using only plasma part is ideal (for massed fire power and points etc), but you always have atleast 1 frag cannon per squad (depending on role, maybe not) so they are good as well) this is my personal preference. You also have to think from sounds of it that is your first game (against knights). It takes time to develop what you want and how to play, asking people what to do after 1 match? Maybe play a few more and find for yourself what you like. If that doesn't work...
In terms of probabilities I like S9 weapons like lascannons way more than I like S8 weapons, because if you can bump an attack to a 2+ (which we can do with our strats) and you're rerolling 1s, you get far more mileage out of that reroll 1 than you would with reroll 1s wounding on 3s or 4s.
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 4s: Adds 8.5% chance to wound
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 3s: adds 11.3% chance to wound
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 2s: Adds 14.2% chance to wound.
A full die shift is 16.7%, so to get full worth out of a 2cp doctrine stratagem I always want to be getting myself to 2s rerolling 1s if possible. The problem is, of course, that Deathwatch have pisspoor access to lascannons compared to other imperial factions, to get a really solid one, you want to have a quadlas mortis contemptor dreadnought, who I LOVE at 168 points. 28 over the twinlas/ML dread gets me 1 missile upgraded to a lascannon shot, an extra lascannon shot (there's 20 of your 28 points right there), 2 extra wounds and a 5+ invuln save. Delicious. and honestly not that hard to convert out of the plastic contemptor kit, because you can quite easily take any weapon designed to be a sponson (my bit of choice would be an admech ironstrider cognis twin lascannon, the smallest paired lascannon bit out there and easily available on ebay for ~5$ because it's almost always an extra in the kit that most people build as the lancer variant)
I mentioned the Contemptor Mortis previous and I think looks good, but each to own.
Math is awesome (I probably edited after posted this) and yes S9 is way better at kill high toughness. I like combi-plasma cause of the ability to hit and damage high toughness targets and do multiple wounds or be good at hoard killing on others as well especially with SIA at range not 8" or under.
The new points cost of the Contemptor mortis dread now. With 2x Twin Auto Cannon (is 8 shots st7 -1AP 2D) is 148pts. 2x twin las is at 168pts. Degrading profile but has a built in 5+ inv. Something to look at anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/26 14:05:37
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters 20k Deathwatch 10k Sisters of Battle 3k Inquisition 4k Grey Knights 5k Imperial Guard 4k Harlequins 8k Tau
I think Combi-Plasma vets are worth a look when thinking about equipping your vets with anti heavy gear.
costs 8 more than a storm bolter.
When on "spray and pray" mode, it does 0.1 less damage on average to GEQ than that storm bolter.
Assuming in range of a captain aura, it enables the vet to do .067 damage per point versus standard T7 3+ vehicles and .037 damage per point versus T8 3+ 5++. Cons: Needs to deep strike, needs to have captain aura to minimise risk of self-explodination, countered by - to hits. Pros: best dpp vs standard tanks, whole squad can take them since they can have SS's so you don't have to screen them much.
Compare to: Frag cannon, .03 dpp vs knights, .044 dpp vs vehicles. Cons: needs to be deep struck, needs to be screened. Pros: Excellent anti-horde or overwatch if it survives to a second turn/gets charged within 8".
Missile launcher, .026 dpp vs knights, .034 vs vehicles. Cons: Low DPP compared to alternative, needs to be screened. Pros: Long range meaning doesn't need deep strike, Troop Choice with obsec filling up sweet battalions, Flakk Missile/Hellfire Shell stratagem if you have a HB in the same squad.
if you want to look at a nonvet alternative, a mortis castellan in range of the same captain aura causes .035 dpp vs knights and .045 dpp vs vehicles. Cons: Absorbs anti-vehicle fire, meaning you don't want to take it with a purely veteran betastrike style list, stats degrade. Pros: Sits in the back with no need to DS, native 5++, good at using the malleus strat.
combi-plas seems like a pretty nifty option, pretty clearly outclasses all other combi and special options, comes in both the DWvets kit and the Sternguard kit (which I would definitely use to get storm bolters/extra bolters with sights and straps to use as stalkers/missile launchers).
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
_Ness wrote: quick question: can i equip my veterans with stormbolter AND chainsword?
1d4chan suggests this loadout, but battlescribe responds with an error.
happy holidays!
Yeah, that seems fine.
The storm bolter is in the "one item can be chosen from the following list" section, and the chainsword is in the "up to two items can be chosen from the following list" section. So you can have them together.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Hey all, I'm pretty new to Deathwatch, still in the 'buying stuff' phase and making lists to try to come up with a good all-comers set to buy toward.
I read through this whole thread to get up to date on the latest thoughts on the army and had a couple questions.
1) thoughts on Fortis teams post-CA? Less on actual team builds, mainly more curious if pure vet teams seem like the better setup right now. Going pure vet squads eliminates a lot of issues with multi wound weapons, and it's pretty easy to essentially have your squads with 2+ 3++ with mixed squad shenanigans. Whereas Fortis have more wounds but no invulns. If Aggressors and inceptors had SIA that would be another story (and probably wildly overpowered), but I'm really leaning toward just vet squads.
2) for HQs I always seem to be defaulting to a WM and a smash WC at minimum. I keep trying to convince myself to take a jump Libby, but his powers aren't really wowwing me (especially when allying in Sisters for anti-psychic duties), so I usually throw in another jump cap or even a Termie cap. What do you guys think about 3rd HQ picks, and is there something I'm missing.
Just FYI this is the list I'm working with, good chance I'll drop the Fortis for more Vet teams and/or some Assassin's though.
8 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors, Aggressor, Inceptor
2 Vets SS/SB, 2 Vets SB/CS, 3 Vets Frag Cannon, 1 Vet Infernus HB, VV with 2 BP, Terminator power axe/SB
Vanguard:
Venerable Chaplain Dread TLC, Fist with Heavy Flamer
Apothecary
Venerable dread TLC and fist/SB
Venerable dread TLC and fist/SB
Supreme Command:
Deathwatch Librarian w/ JP, Force Sword, SB
Dark Angel Librarian w/ JP, Force Axe
Rune Priest on bike w/ Axe, SB, Rune Armor
The Librarians take the -1 to hit powers and other based on matchup. I prefer staying mono faction but this seems fluffy still since DW would have psykers from all other Chapters anyways. Gives me the anti-tank I was looking for, plus I love dreads, and isn't WAAC but still strong which fits my local meta.
I am gonna start working on more of a tournament list as well and see if I can make it work without taking a Castellan... I think running mostly infantry is the way to do that.
Creeping Dementia wrote: Hey all, I'm pretty new to Deathwatch, still in the 'buying stuff' phase and making lists to try to come up with a good all-comers set to buy toward.
I read through this whole thread to get up to date on the latest thoughts on the army and had a couple questions.
1) thoughts on Fortis teams post-CA? Less on actual team builds, mainly more curious if pure vet teams seem like the better setup right now. Going pure vet squads eliminates a lot of issues with multi wound weapons, and it's pretty easy to essentially have your squads with 2+ 3++ with mixed squad shenanigans. Whereas Fortis have more wounds but no invulns. If Aggressors and inceptors had SIA that would be another story (and probably wildly overpowered), but I'm really leaning toward just vet squads.
2) for HQs I always seem to be defaulting to a WM and a smash WC at minimum. I keep trying to convince myself to take a jump Libby, but his powers aren't really wowwing me (especially when allying in Sisters for anti-psychic duties), so I usually throw in another jump cap or even a Termie cap. What do you guys think about 3rd HQ picks, and is there something I'm missing.
Just FYI this is the list I'm working with, good chance I'll drop the Fortis for more Vet teams and/or some Assassin's though.
1) There's very little reason to bring Primaris if you're looking for the most competitive builds. Every mini marine equivalent is better in every way.
But the Primaris squads are pretty fun, and it's not like they're bad - they're just worse than the better, cheaper, higher damage, more resilient Veteran teams.
2) I still love Librarians for their buff potential and mortal wound output, so it's always my third choice.
What about a repulsor to avoid the struggle with fortis teams? seems like a pretty decent deal at about 300 points for the quadlas loadout, decent defenses, Fly, keeps your Fortis team from getting alphastruck by plasma/knight gatling cannons/dissies. Too much of a Castellan/Doom magnet?
Other option is obviously deep striking the fortis team right into range, since all their weapons don't particularly care about moving/shooting. Only problem there is I definitely prefer the alternative of SS-toting vets to fortis teams, since I tend to see lists heavily stacked with anti elite weapons that fall hilariously flat against mass storm shields more than I see them stacked with massive numbers of heavy dakka weapons.
2W 3+ with a points discount vs 1W 3++ I'd take all day every day the 3++ even if it didn't come with extra firepower...which it does.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Creeping Dementia wrote: Hey all, I'm pretty new to Deathwatch, still in the 'buying stuff' phase and making lists to try to come up with a good all-comers set to buy toward.
I read through this whole thread to get up to date on the latest thoughts on the army and had a couple questions.
1) thoughts on Fortis teams post-CA? Less on actual team builds, mainly more curious if pure vet teams seem like the better setup right now. Going pure vet squads eliminates a lot of issues with multi wound weapons, and it's pretty easy to essentially have your squads with 2+ 3++ with mixed squad shenanigans. Whereas Fortis have more wounds but no invulns. If Aggressors and inceptors had SIA that would be another story (and probably wildly overpowered), but I'm really leaning toward just vet squads.
2) for HQs I always seem to be defaulting to a WM and a smash WC at minimum. I keep trying to convince myself to take a jump Libby, but his powers aren't really wowwing me (especially when allying in Sisters for anti-psychic duties), so I usually throw in another jump cap or even a Termie cap. What do you guys think about 3rd HQ picks, and is there something I'm missing.
Just FYI this is the list I'm working with, good chance I'll drop the Fortis for more Vet teams and/or some Assassin's though.
1) There's very little reason to bring Primaris if you're looking for the most competitive builds. Every mini marine equivalent is better in every way.
But the Primaris squads are pretty fun, and it's not like they're bad - they're just worse than the better, cheaper, higher damage, more resilient Veteran teams.
2) I still love Librarians for their buff potential and mortal wound output, so it's always my third choice.
I think we can still make the argument that the Auto version with Aggressors are still cool due to natural speed, but that's about it.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
the_scotsman wrote:What about a repulsor to avoid the struggle with fortis teams? seems like a pretty decent deal at about 300 points for the quadlas loadout, decent defenses, Fly, keeps your Fortis team from getting alphastruck by plasma/knight gatling cannons/dissies. Too much of a Castellan/Doom magnet?
Other option is obviously deep striking the fortis team right into range, since all their weapons don't particularly care about moving/shooting. Only problem there is I definitely prefer the alternative of SS-toting vets to fortis teams, since I tend to see lists heavily stacked with anti elite weapons that fall hilariously flat against mass storm shields more than I see them stacked with massive numbers of heavy dakka weapons.
2W 3+ with a points discount vs 1W 3++ I'd take all day every day the 3++ even if it didn't come with extra firepower...which it does.
A pity the Repulsor is only 10 slots. Also a pity the Covus can't carry Primaris. Many of the best Fortis Kill Teams can't go full size if they want mobility from a transport, which is probably why the auto bolt rifle and aggressor builds are still so popular.
Even the Heltercessor teams with Hellblasters and an Inceptor can be pretty easily approximated with Veterans by using combi-plasma and storm shields, coming in cheaper and more durable. And deadlier per point. And more flexible. They're just all around superior.
I think we can still make the argument that the Auto version with Aggressors are still cool due to natural speed, but that's about it.
Sure, and that's actually super fun, but Veterans even have better mobility options in transports, which in turn makes them even more durable and mobile. The Repulsor is pretty great, but then the auto bolt rifle mobility seems kind of wasted, no? Lots of mobility needed in the new missions, and the Repulsor looks pretty powerful for Primaris there, but you're probably better off with Veterans since they actually have the transports to carry popular KT builds.
Primaris DW are still powerful and fun. There was always a gap between the two, and that gap had Veterans a tad more powerful than Intercessors prior to CA - but post CA, that gap got wider, and did so entirely in favour of mini-marines. I don't think it was entirely intentional, though - just like I don't think the storm bolter meta was the design intention here either.
the_scotsman wrote:What about a repulsor to avoid the struggle with fortis teams? seems like a pretty decent deal at about 300 points for the quadlas loadout, decent defenses, Fly, keeps your Fortis team from getting alphastruck by plasma/knight gatling cannons/dissies. Too much of a Castellan/Doom magnet?
Other option is obviously deep striking the fortis team right into range, since all their weapons don't particularly care about moving/shooting. Only problem there is I definitely prefer the alternative of SS-toting vets to fortis teams, since I tend to see lists heavily stacked with anti elite weapons that fall hilariously flat against mass storm shields more than I see them stacked with massive numbers of heavy dakka weapons.
2W 3+ with a points discount vs 1W 3++ I'd take all day every day the 3++ even if it didn't come with extra firepower...which it does.
A pity the Repulsor is only 10 slots. Also a pity the Covus can't carry Primaris. Many of the best Fortis Kill Teams can't go full size if they want mobility from a transport, which is probably why the auto bolt rifle and aggressor builds are still so popular.
Even the Heltercessor teams with Hellblasters and an Inceptor can be pretty easily approximated with Veterans by using combi-plasma and storm shields, coming in cheaper and more durable. And deadlier per point. And more flexible. They're just all around superior.
I think we can still make the argument that the Auto version with Aggressors are still cool due to natural speed, but that's about it.
Sure, and that's actually super fun, but Veterans even have better mobility options in transports, which in turn makes them even more durable and mobile. The Repulsor is pretty great, but then the auto bolt rifle mobility seems kind of wasted, no? Lots of mobility needed in the new missions, and the Repulsor looks pretty powerful for Primaris there, but you're probably better off with Veterans since they actually have the transports to carry popular KT builds.
Primaris DW are still powerful and fun. There was always a gap between the two, and that gap had Veterans a tad more powerful than Intercessors prior to CA - but post CA, that gap got wider, and did so entirely in favour of mini-marines. I don't think it was entirely intentional, though - just like I don't think the storm bolter meta was the design intention here either.
Those transports cost a hefty amount of points though. You're paying at minimum 74 for the Rhino, after all.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Another thing worth mentioning is that Primaris are still more durable to MW. My local meta has 2 players that run Smite Spam Thousand Sons lists and Intercessors are the cheapest soak we have for that. Also Aggressors still put out more anti-infantry fire for clearing chaff and hordes if you can position them where they don't need to move. That's why i still bring one unit of Intercessors with 4 aggressors and an Inceptor to sit mid-field and scare away other stuff or soak up fire. If I run double battalion I still run two other squads with 5 intercessors and 5 Hellblasters because I don't have enough vets to run more yet
Those transports cost a hefty amount of points though. You're paying at minimum 74 for the Rhino, after all.
74 points versus 250 for the cheapest Repulsor (which isn't even all that shooty when you strip it down that much), so it's not even close.
I love my Primaris - I will continue with them for now (while I build up my other project, Crimson Fists), but if GW actually does have plans to replace old marines with Primaris, then they keep taking steps away from that as far as DW is concerned. Hooray for the mini marine brethren and those who love them.
Now, that beings aid, if the Veteran Intercessor strats eventually work on DW...
Well, now that would definitely make things interesting...
+1 A for an Intergressor unit with a power fist Sgt? That's at least 19 power fist attacks - and pop Liberators to make every unmodified hit roll of 6 equals two hits. Won't even need the Inceptor to fall back and shoot - not much will withstand that.
4 shots of SIA -1 AP bolt rifles too? SIA Storm Bolters are amazing, so those would be pretty enticing. Sniper stalker bolt rifles that wound on 2s? Yes, please.
Grey Shield warlord trait is super fluffy for DW, that's for sure.
Massive CP overhead, though - and most of the battle reps I've seen regarding this particular detachment feel like it's pretty underwhelming, but if anybody could make an impact with them it would be DW. Still, could be fun...but alas, I doubt it'll come to pass. I imagine they'll make it usable on BA, DA, SW but not DW.
FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
I do think the Repulsor is well worth it by itself, tbh - a quadlas platform with POtMS, Fly, T8 and 16W with half-decent anti-horde capabilities is pretty good on its own.
By contrast, Rhinos pretty much only exist to cart around your dudes. And I am not convinced after CA/codex that razors are really worth a second look as a fire support platform. Veterans are so durable on foot that you almost always want them just deep striking right where they want to be or, dare I say it, drop podding.
When I run DW in a soup list (usually with Admech going stygies for an army that's maximally defensive - post CA Breacher servitors are actually tanky as all get out) I usually deep strike absolutely all my basic shooting units. If I were playing a casual game I'd bring one squad with melee gear and fly them in a corvus.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
It really comes down to what the meta for your area is. My LGS is pretty horde heavy (Fire Warrior mobs, Orks, Swarm Nids, Kabalite Venom spam, etc), so having a layer of 20W 3+ units I can drop in to run as distraction carnifexes between the enemy hordes and my own real heavy hitters is very much worth it. Bonus points as most of the folks I play with dont have much in the way of Invuln saves, so the AP on every gun I point downrange from my Fortis boys scares the crap out of pretty much anything and everything on the board.
In the bleeding edge competitive arena I dont really dispute that SS Vets are the way to go post-CA, but there's still a viable place for Primaris in less optimized games.
the_scotsman wrote: FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
It really comes down to what the meta for your area is. My LGS is pretty horde heavy (Fire Warrior mobs, Orks, Swarm Nids, Kabalite Venom spam, etc), so having a layer of 20W 3+ units I can drop in to run as distraction carnifexes between the enemy hordes and my own real heavy hitters is very much worth it. Bonus points as most of the folks I play with dont have much in the way of Invuln saves, so the AP on every gun I point downrange from my Fortis boys scares the crap out of pretty much anything and everything on the board.
In the bleeding edge competitive arena I dont really dispute that SS Vets are the way to go post-CA, but there's still a viable place for Primaris in less optimized games.
Yes it is worth noting that these squads are VERY COMPARABLE and in real-world money terms one unit is an unholy, expensive bitch to put together that will cost you a minimum of 90$ just for the bodies and then you'll need to get 3x combi-plasmas, 5x storm bolters, and 6x storm shields off bits sellers to complete it. On the other hand, the primaris equivalent will cost, let's see...40$ total to get in Dark Imperium squad form off ebay. Also, if you had me rate the probability of Storm Shield+Storm Bolter Veterans sticking around through the editions vs Intercessors with basic bolt rifles.....?
If you aren't in a competitve meta, it aint worth 50$+probably 40$ minimum of bits to get 35% more firepower against GEQ the turn you come down in your squad that's going to be mostly anti-tank.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
It really comes down to what the meta for your area is. My LGS is pretty horde heavy (Fire Warrior mobs, Orks, Swarm Nids, Kabalite Venom spam, etc), so having a layer of 20W 3+ units I can drop in to run as distraction carnifexes between the enemy hordes and my own real heavy hitters is very much worth it. Bonus points as most of the folks I play with dont have much in the way of Invuln saves, so the AP on every gun I point downrange from my Fortis boys scares the crap out of pretty much anything and everything on the board.
In the bleeding edge competitive arena I dont really dispute that SS Vets are the way to go post-CA, but there's still a viable place for Primaris in less optimized games.
Yes it is worth noting that these squads are VERY COMPARABLE and in real-world money terms one unit is an unholy, expensive bitch to put together that will cost you a minimum of 90$ just for the bodies and then you'll need to get 3x combi-plasmas, 5x storm bolters, and 6x storm shields off bits sellers to complete it. On the other hand, the primaris equivalent will cost, let's see...40$ total to get in Dark Imperium squad form off ebay. Also, if you had me rate the probability of Storm Shield+Storm Bolter Veterans sticking around through the editions vs Intercessors with basic bolt rifles.....?
If you aren't in a competitve meta, it aint worth 50$+probably 40$ minimum of bits to get 35% more firepower against GEQ the turn you come down in your squad that's going to be mostly anti-tank.
It is funny how the out of game logistics has a very real impact on the the game in actual practice.
I'm definitely picking up some blue stuff to start making copies of hard to find bitz like DW storm shields, though I've had a lot of luck on local FB groups for storm bolters.
the_scotsman wrote: FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
It really comes down to what the meta for your area is. My LGS is pretty horde heavy (Fire Warrior mobs, Orks, Swarm Nids, Kabalite Venom spam, etc), so having a layer of 20W 3+ units I can drop in to run as distraction carnifexes between the enemy hordes and my own real heavy hitters is very much worth it. Bonus points as most of the folks I play with dont have much in the way of Invuln saves, so the AP on every gun I point downrange from my Fortis boys scares the crap out of pretty much anything and everything on the board.
In the bleeding edge competitive arena I dont really dispute that SS Vets are the way to go post-CA, but there's still a viable place for Primaris in less optimized games.
Yes it is worth noting that these squads are VERY COMPARABLE and in real-world money terms one unit is an unholy, expensive bitch to put together that will cost you a minimum of 90$ just for the bodies and then you'll need to get 3x combi-plasmas, 5x storm bolters, and 6x storm shields off bits sellers to complete it. On the other hand, the primaris equivalent will cost, let's see...40$ total to get in Dark Imperium squad form off ebay. Also, if you had me rate the probability of Storm Shield+Storm Bolter Veterans sticking around through the editions vs Intercessors with basic bolt rifles.....?
If you aren't in a competitve meta, it aint worth 50$+probably 40$ minimum of bits to get 35% more firepower against GEQ the turn you come down in your squad that's going to be mostly anti-tank.
It is funny how the out of game logistics has a very real impact on the the game in actual practice.
I'm definitely picking up some blue stuff to start making copies of hard to find bitz like DW storm shields, though I've had a lot of luck on local FB groups for storm bolters.
Of course. Why do you think I made my own Chapter and create a dozen or so characters to represent several different Marine HQ units?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Hey guys I want to start a new faction and after some deliberation I want to start Deathwatch. I don't have any Astartes army, but I have a large collection of Orks, Drukhari and Harlequins. I wanted an army that wouldn't have a high model count like the others but were pretty elite. Just wondering where to start. Absolutely love the look of the veteran squads.
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