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Against infantry you'll mostly be fine as you'll have Rapid Fire range (Kraken) or wound at a higher rate (Helfire).

I can't think of a mathematical instance to use Dragonfire at all though. If it still ignored cover there might at least be a niche use out of it.

based on initial talks about GSC and their ability to get closer for easier charges from deep strike, I think the 'ole frag cannon might be back on the menu. Shame we don;t get a strategem specific for GSC, or do their characters have the Synapse rule like nids?

Except we spend 2CP to get free shots negated and then I will bet you literally anything they have a Strategem to ignore Overwatch.

Lemondish wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.

What are the minus to hit factions and are they a threat that weight of SIA fire can't solve?

Eldar lists make hellblasters pretty pointless in my experience. Waveserpents, Hemlocks & Harlies in particular. SIA can do work for sure, especially if you're flush with CPs. But then, why are you bringing Hellblasters at that point?

I still use them quite a bit, but I don't think I'd bring them to a tournament.

except you need hellblasters if you wanna use DW's most competitive unit (the relic levi).

They are a tax, but at least they are useable.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
except you need hellblasters if you wanna use DW's most competitive unit (the relic levi).

They are a tax, but at least they are useable.

Contemptor. Mortis.

Hi DakkaMasters.

I am going to order a Leviathan to Forgeworld beffore Brexit makes it even more expensive. My question is: which arms should I buy for using it mostly with my Deathwatch?

Alex_85 wrote:
Hi DakkaMasters.

I am going to order a Leviathan to Forgeworld beffore Brexit makes it even more expensive. My question is: which arms should I buy for using it mostly with my Deathwatch?

Go for 2x SCA.
With a WM as support and the +1 to wound stratagem they kill almost everything

20 shots, hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's gets you 18-20 hits every turn. Str 7 with +1 to wound and reroll 1's from doctrine is landing 11+ wounds every go round, and -2 ap means at least half those are going through. 2 damage a pop means you rarely waste any of that damage.


If you can pick up 2 of these bad boys your gonna be making enemies.


They don't die easy either. 14 wounds at T8 with a 4++ is pretty durable.

Alex_85 wrote:
Hi DakkaMasters.

I am going to order a Leviathan to Forgeworld beffore Brexit makes it even more expensive. My question is: which arms should I buy for using it mostly with my Deathwatch?

As much as I love the Storm Array for extra dakka, DW always struggles against armor so I would put at least one cyclonic melta lance to help out and one storm array.

 grouchoben wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.

What are the minus to hit factions and are they a threat that weight of SIA fire can't solve?

Eldar lists make hellblasters pretty pointless in my experience. Waveserpents, Hemlocks & Harlies in particular. SIA can do work for sure, especially if you're flush with CPs. But then, why are you bringing Hellblasters at that point?

I still use them quite a bit, but I don't think I'd bring them to a tournament.

You're probably bringing Hellblasters because we aren't tailoring lists to specific opponents and you've decided not to play cutthroat list by intentionally limiting yourself to infantry AT - you know, the whole question at hand here.

SIA SB can solve some of those Eldar issues, especially against Harlies, when AP becomes irrelevant and -1 to hit encourages weight of fire, or Wave Serpents where all damage is reduced and you'll probably be unable up hit it with a low quantity of high quality shots anyway. We don't need a single solution that applies to every threat, just enough solutions across the list to take all comers. Given the user's self imposed limitations, Hellblasters having a few weak matchups that can be covered by other solutions is a relevant point.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

Alex_85 wrote:
Hi DakkaMasters.

I am going to order a Leviathan to Forgeworld beffore Brexit makes it even more expensive. My question is: which arms should I buy for using it mostly with my Deathwatch?

As much as I love the Storm Array for extra dakka, DW always struggles against armor so I would put at least one cyclonic melta lance to help out and one storm array.

In what manner is the Storm Array struggling with being AT?

Lemondish wrote:

You're probably bringing Hellblasters because we aren't tailoring lists to specific opponents and you've decided not to play cutthroat list by intentionally limiting yourself to infantry AT - you know, the whole question at hand here.

Preparing for Ynnari, Deldar and Eldar-soup isn't 'list tailoring', its just preparing to face the best armies in the game, that's all. It's not about cuthroat, just about prep for competitive play. If we're talking about beer and pretzels, well then anything goes, right?

I've got nothing against HBs, I said as much in my post. I use them, I like them, andif possible my fave tactic is to deploy a big fortis HB squad on each flank, then refuse with the beacon. It's great fun, and pretty effective. But it's not optimal for competitive play. I think you already know this though.

My main question about Hellblasters is this... how much anti-tank is actually needed against the Eldar with -1 to hit? I ask because I don't have many Eldar (and their variants) players in my local meta to be able to come to a logical opinion on it.

The anti-tank I typically have a need for seems to all come from factions that can't do -1 to hit, so the Hellblasters perform admirably. All of this said I still prefer Dreads but if I was trying to strip away my opponent's anti-tank firepower's efficiency it seems that Hellblasters would still be passable.

Well, Hemlocks, Fire Prisms, CHExarchs & Wave Serpents are the big targets where AT would be handy I suppose. Hellblasters are going to have a bad time against those four, except against non-Alaitoc Fire Prisms.

 grouchoben wrote:
Well, Hemlocks, Fire Prisms, CHExarchs & Wave Serpents are the big targets where AT would be handy I suppose. Hellblasters are going to have a bad time against those four, except against non-Alaitoc Fire Prisms.

As an Eldar player, I'd prefer to be facing Primaris units over StormVets. All that AP-3/4 D2 weapons in our arsenal puts Primaris to bed fast. But you get some 3++ spread out and all that shooting becomes much less effective.

I'd fear a melee-base DW army far more than a shooting one for this reason. Get some Jump pack Thunder hammers in close and our tanks/flyers are in for a bad day.
If you spread out enough, there is little place to hide/run.

That's one of the reasons I am putting bikes & VVs in my Kill teams. That speed not only gets you in close for melee, but as long a 1 model is within 12", the whole unit ignores the -1 to hit penalty for Alaitoc. Add in a couple Smash Captain dropping in, one with the Beacon to pull a unit close and that makes the fight that much more difficult for Eldar.
They'll still have the advantage, because Eldar, but you'll have a fighting chance

-

 grouchoben wrote:
Well, Hemlocks, Fire Prisms, CHExarchs & Wave Serpents are the big targets where AT would be handy I suppose. Hellblasters are going to have a bad time against those four, except against non-Alaitoc Fire Prisms.

Dont discount things like Vypers, Hornets or Walkers. Their higher toughness makes Plasma the ideal countermeasure, but the -1 to hit downfield, plus solid mobility, makes that problematic.

Someone mentioned Harlequins as a problem with AT? I play against them very frequently and the deathwatch have no problem against their low T low wounds vehicles. Just use +1 to wound strat and unload lots of SIA into them. I get around the -1 to hit them with rerolls. My eldar opponents really hate it when I use our eldar strat to light them up in their own movement phase.

Speculation question: If DW Vets have the option to take Storm Bolters removed (because the plastic kits does not have any, and if they are the "best build" right now due to SIA and the Bolter Discipline rule) is there a bolter-equivalent that is comparable.
Would it just be the Stalker or just a regular bolter? Maybe the DW shotgun?

Basically, if a bunch of players (myself included) build StormVets and the SB is taken away, what could we swap the SBs for?
Of would this basically put Intercessors back on the menu as default Troop?

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 Galef wrote:
Speculation question: If DW Vets have the option to take Storm Bolters removed (because the plastic kits does not have any, and if they are the "best build" right now due to SIA and the Bolter Discipline rule) is there a bolter-equivalent that is comparable.
Would it just be the Stalker or just a regular bolter? Maybe the DW shotgun?

Basically, if a bunch of players (myself included) build StormVets and the SB is taken away, what could we swap the SBs for?
Of would this basically put Intercessors back on the menu as default Troop?

-

I doubt that storm bolters would be removed, more likely you'd just see SIA removed from the storm bolter (I don't think it had it in 7th). If it does get removed DW vets become much worse.

 Galef wrote:
Speculation question: If DW Vets have the option to take Storm Bolters removed (because the plastic kits does not have any, and if they are the "best build" right now due to SIA and the Bolter Discipline rule) is there a bolter-equivalent that is comparable.
Would it just be the Stalker or just a regular bolter? Maybe the DW shotgun?

Basically, if a bunch of players (myself included) build StormVets and the SB is taken away, what could we swap the SBs for?
Of would this basically put Intercessors back on the menu as default Troop?

-

The option in wargear is unlikely to ever disappear, but I suppose it could happen. I think, in order of most to least likely, we'd likely be looking at...

The storm bolter losing SIA except for models with the CHARACTER and TERMINATOR keywords

The storm bolter has its profile changed from being a simulation of two taped together bolters (rapid fire 2) and instead becoming something else entirely like - assault, for example

Some other bolter buff hits that boosts the boltgun but either doesn't affect or barely affects the storm bolter

An errata removes the option from Veterans entirely

You guys prefer the bolter drill rule or the standart get close rule?

I still have to try the new BETA rule.

Id say the new BETA rule makes black shield vets even more useless?
I‘d say with good army deployment you could even save yourself the CP for the deep strike stratagem.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
You guys prefer the bolter drill rule or the standart get close rule?

I still have to try the new BETA rule.

Id say the new BETA rule makes black shield vets even more useless?
I‘d say with good army deployment you could even save yourself the CP for the deep strike stratagem.

More useless? Black Shields are ace, man.

But if you're never ever going to ever benefit from free melee attacks without reprisal, then I guess save the minor point cost for adding one.

Lemondish wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Speculation question: If DW Vets have the option to take Storm Bolters removed (because the plastic kits does not have any, and if they are the "best build" right now due to SIA and the Bolter Discipline rule) is there a bolter-equivalent that is comparable.
Would it just be the Stalker or just a regular bolter? Maybe the DW shotgun?

Basically, if a bunch of players (myself included) build StormVets and the SB is taken away, what could we swap the SBs for?
Of would this basically put Intercessors back on the menu as default Troop?

-

The option in wargear is unlikely to ever disappear, but I suppose it could happen. I think, in order of most to least likely, we'd likely be looking at...

The storm bolter losing SIA except for models with the CHARACTER and TERMINATOR keywords

The storm bolter has its profile changed from being a simulation of two taped together bolters (rapid fire 2) and instead becoming something else entirely like - assault, for example

Some other bolter buff hits that boosts the boltgun but either doesn't affect or barely affects the storm bolter

An errata removes the option from Veterans entirely

After we FINALLY get SIA on Storm Bolters? The outcry would be way too great.

They're really fine at 4 points because it's an 18 point model with MEQ durability. The problem afterwards is the cheap Storm Shields.

I still don't get the new super excitement, honestly. I'll grant DW seem pretty popular, so I could just be missing something, but the exact same unit build was possible before storm shields went down in price. Way back when the codex first came out, people used the same Vet unit and still had like 4 storm shields in a squad with storm bolters. 4 shields for 20pts to 6 for 12pts isn't exactly game changing. Add in the termie drop and you're getting 20pts back, tops.

I originally assumed the trendy wave was due to a combo of not only that modest Vet squad price drop, but also the 25% cut on venerables or access to knights to provide the missing AT, and then the bolter rule making everyone look at storm bolters and everyone who'd never looked at DW before going "omg, look at all the storm bolters DW can take!" Yeah, storm bolters on units that usually deep struck or teleported into 12" already, so are not getting a buff until the turn after landing.

All this leads to me agreeing Vets are much better than primaris, unfortunately, but seeing as how DW was low tier before I'll be pretty surprised if this bumps DW to OP nerfing range. There's plenty of other crazy nonmarine shooting units out there. I feel like if Vets get nerfed it'll be due to making other marines look bad, not cause they're too OP compared to other races.

I wonder if the spec ops looking primaris shown st LVO will be available to death watch

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:
I wonder if the spec ops looking primaris shown st LVO will be available to death watch

Even if they're not (which I highly doubt) the bits will do for fantastic conversion fuel.

I keep seeing references and tactics saying DW "have to deep strike", but I really don't see why. Sure it gets the DW Vets in RF on the turn they arrive, be it also means the unit isn't shooting at all on turn 1. With Bolter Discipline and Kraken bolts, you can do plenty of damage turn. And with cheaper SS, you have more durability for that turn.

Certainly 1 unit in Teleporarium is good, but do we really need to spend precious CPs to put more units off the table doing nothing turn 1?

-

 Galef wrote:
I keep seeing references and tactics saying DW "have to deep strike", but I really don't see why. Sure it gets the DW Vets in RF on the turn they arrive, be it also means the unit isn't shooting at all on turn 1. With Bolter Discipline and Kraken bolts, you can do plenty of damage turn. And with cheaper SS, you have more durability for that turn.

Certainly 1 unit in Teleporarium is good, but do we really need to spend precious CPs to put more units off the table doing nothing turn 1?

-

You gotta think of them as Beta Strike, not Alpha Strike, and a way to keep them safe an extra turn without using a Rhino.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I keep seeing references and tactics saying DW "have to deep strike", but I really don't see why. Sure it gets the DW Vets in RF on the turn they arrive, be it also means the unit isn't shooting at all on turn 1. With Bolter Discipline and Kraken bolts, you can do plenty of damage turn. And with cheaper SS, you have more durability for that turn.

Certainly 1 unit in Teleporarium is good, but do we really need to spend precious CPs to put more units off the table doing nothing turn 1?

-

You gotta think of them as Beta Strike, not Alpha Strike, and a way to keep them safe an extra turn without using a Rhino.

So what do you have on the table turn 1? Intercessors, perhaps?

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