Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galef wrote:

So what do you have on the table turn 1? Intercessors, perhaps?
-

Vets, combat squadded Bikes/VV teams, Dreads, allies, etc.

Force your opponent out Turn 1, punch a landing zone through their screen, then drop the heavy hitters Turn 2.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

So what do you have on the table turn 1? Intercessors, perhaps?
-

Vets, combat squadded Bikes/VV teams, Dreads, allies, etc.

Force your opponent out Turn 1, punch a landing zone through their screen, then drop the heavy hitters Turn 2.

Yeah, that makes sense. Unfortunately for me, I am requiring myself to take 6 Troops and 4 HQs minimum to get 2 Battalion for max CPs. That doesn't leave much room for 10-man units that can be combat squadded. Especially since I'm also including 3 Custodes Shield captains

-

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I keep seeing references and tactics saying DW "have to deep strike", but I really don't see why. Sure it gets the DW Vets in RF on the turn they arrive, be it also means the unit isn't shooting at all on turn 1. With Bolter Discipline and Kraken bolts, you can do plenty of damage turn. And with cheaper SS, you have more durability for that turn.

Certainly 1 unit in Teleporarium is good, but do we really need to spend precious CPs to put more units off the table doing nothing turn 1?

-

You gotta think of them as Beta Strike, not Alpha Strike, and a way to keep them safe an extra turn without using a Rhino.

So what do you have on the table turn 1? Intercessors, perhaps?

-

Honestly my list fluctuates a whole lot. From memory I think the last list I used that was basically pure was, and forgive me for being slightly inaccurate:
Terminator Watch Captain w/ Relic Blade and Dominus Aegis
Terminator Watch Captain w/ Storm Bolter, Fist + Melta and Bane Bolts

2 squads of ×5 Vets w/ Stalker Bolters, ×3 Bikers w/ Chainswords, ×2 Vanguard w/ Bolt Pistols and Storm Shields
2 Squads of ×5 Vets w/ Storm Bolters, ×3 Vets w/ Frag Cannons, ×1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter and Power Sword, ×1 Vanguard w/ Chainsword and Storm Shield
1 Squad of ×5 Vets w/ Shotguns, ×3 Vets w/ Frag Cannons, ×1 Terminator w/ Assault Cannon and Power Sword, ×1 Vet w/ Chainsword and Storm Shield

×3 Ven Dreads w/ LasML

×4 Tarantula Sentry Guns w/ TL Heavy Bolters (3 separate entries with one squad being two of course, just to help clarify any potential confusion)

I think the list a bit off 2000 points, but I'm pretty darn low on CP. The idea would be to remove the Sentry Guns (as much as I love them) and something else to make room for the Loyal 32 for extra CP. That's why I talked about HQ cost being so prohibitive for this army. My TWO guys aren't even that fancy and still take up like 10% of the army.

bort wrote:
I still don't get the new super excitement, honestly. I'll grant DW seem pretty popular, so I could just be missing something, but the exact same unit build was possible before storm shields went down in price. Way back when the codex first came out, people used the same Vet unit and still had like 4 storm shields in a squad with storm bolters. 4 shields for 20pts to 6 for 12pts isn't exactly game changing. Add in the termie drop and you're getting 20pts back, tops.

Ss/Sb is down 20% in cost from 25pts to 20. Combined with the termi drop, the optimal vet loadout is now competitively priced. Take a team of 8 ss/sb, a cheap termi and a pistol VV (also down); that's down 52 pts or therabouts per squad. Multiply by three for a batallion and you've saved over 150pts. That's a big deal in a 1750pt game, it makes them real contenders for one of a soup list's batallions: it's almost a 'free' loyal 32 batallion...

How have you guys been running your special weapons? I’m talking frag cannons, plasma guns etc.

Currently I have 4 frag and 4 plasma in a squad to drop in and delete anything non knight. ( I usually pop the +1 to wound strat) but with genestealer cult coming out I’m considering splitting up my frags into my 2 storm bolter units. Thoughts?

demontalons wrote:
How have you guys been running your special weapons? I’m talking frag cannons, plasma guns etc.

Currently I have 4 frag and 4 plasma in a squad to drop in and delete anything non knight. ( I usually pop the +1 to wound strat) but with genestealer cult coming out I’m considering splitting up my frags into my 2 storm bolter units. Thoughts?

I take Frag Cannon and a couple of Frag Cannon only for the squads that also spams SB/SS. I may also take Heavy Bolter plus Missile Launcher on the squads taking Stalker Pattern Boltguns, if they exists.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

demontalons wrote:
How have you guys been running your special weapons? I’m talking frag cannons, plasma guns etc.

Currently I have 4 frag and 4 plasma in a squad to drop in and delete anything non knight. ( I usually pop the +1 to wound strat) but with genestealer cult coming out I’m considering splitting up my frags into my 2 storm bolter units. Thoughts?

I take Frag Cannon and a couple of Frag Cannon only for the squads that also spams SB/SS. I may also take Heavy Bolter plus Missile Launcher on the squads taking Stalker Pattern Boltguns, if they exists.

I do this exact thing. The ML and HB are for using the mortal strats. Frags I use for its AT flexibility and as a charge deterrent for the Ss/SB squads.

Sorry if this has been covered already but I'm thinking about starting a Deathwatch army, and going through the codex, and taking into consideration the new beta bolter rules I'm having a hard time deciding between intercessors and vets as my troops choices.

They both seem very good now. Is the stormbolter vets plus ability to take SS's just better then intercessor loadouts plus 2 wounds?

bobafett012 wrote:
Sorry if this has been covered already but I'm thinking about starting a Deathwatch army, and going through the codex, and taking into consideration the new beta bolter rules I'm having a hard time deciding between intercessors and vets as my troops choices.

They both seem very good now. Is the stormbolter vets plus ability to take SS's just better then intercessor loadouts plus 2 wounds?

They both work better in different situations. Intercessors are better suited to a long range defense, with an auxiliary grenade launcher per squad. Vets do much better at close range with points invested in special weapons or melee options. Look at your list and how it should win, then decide accordingly.

I set up a forward line and fall back to keep the enemy at range. To that end I deploy some 60 primaris intercessors. A fellow DeathWatch player I sometimes face drops an almost equal number of vets (many with Stormbolters or Frag Cannons) that he teleports in for a brutal 8" zone of pain that shreds anything less than 3+ armor. We both deploy hellblaster squads to take out the big stuff.

The main thing to keep in mind is Primaris will overall take less wounds from Smite. Unless your area is spamming Smite, Vets with Storm Bolters are still king due to prolific multi-damage weapons and easily accessed Storm Shields.

Right now I prefer StormVets as the majority of my army, with just 1 Intercessor unit in the backfield.

But I am also preparing my self for the possibility that SB gets removed as a option on Vets (because the kits doesn't include any and with SIA + Bolter Discipline and cheap SS, it seems a logical choice for GW to tone down DW Vets)
If the SB option does get removed from the DW equipment list, than Intercessors will be the obvious choice, IMO.

-

 Galef wrote:
Right now I prefer StormVets as the majority of my army, with just 1 Intercessor unit in the backfield.

But I am also preparing my self for the possibility that SB gets removed as a option on Vets (because the kits doesn't include any and with SIA + Bolter Discipline and cheap SS, it seems a logical choice for GW to tone down DW Vets)
If the SB option does get removed from the DW equipment list, than Intercessors will be the obvious choice, IMO.

-

Storm Bolters are in the index. You're fine.

How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?

Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.

Oh, also, where are people getting their dreadnought MLs from? Maybe it’s just the kit versions I had, but the other night I realized I have 6 dreads/venerables from various sources and yet somehow only a single kit came with a ML.

Personally all my stormbolters are just double barreled bolters. Not sure how tournaments would feel about them but they look cool and works for my group

Versatilebeats wrote:
Personally all my stormbolters are just double barreled bolters. Not sure how tournaments would feel about them but they look cool and works for my group

It is tolerated in my local gaming club tournament that proxying the bolter on the DW veteran as Stormbolter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Right now I prefer StormVets as the majority of my army, with just 1 Intercessor unit in the backfield.

But I am also preparing my self for the possibility that SB gets removed as a option on Vets (because the kits doesn't include any and with SIA + Bolter Discipline and cheap SS, it seems a logical choice for GW to tone down DW Vets)
If the SB option does get removed from the DW equipment list, than Intercessors will be the obvious choice, IMO.

-

Storm Bolters are in the index. You're fine.

Storm bolters are in the Codex so we're fine. But what happens if GW specifically FAQs the option away to balance the combo of Bolter discipline, special issue ammunition and cheap storm shields? It would make sense because the kit doesn't actually have any SBs

But that's just my speculation for now. But on topic, I'm using GKs as the base for my StormVets. The box comes with more SBs than actual models to put them on.

-

bobafett012 wrote:
How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?

Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.

In my search someone had posted a link to shapeways, so I just order 30 SB's for like 15$. Will take a little work to get them on but should work out.

Have not taken any intercessors, just lean on soup to cover anything else.

I haven't tried running any math, but I bet intercessors would be pretty good if DW ones could use that Vigilus strat to up grade to vets for +1A and 1cp double shoot.

It isn't they can effectively doubleshoot already with stormbolters that intercessors can't take. So Vets can do the samething, essentially for free with no CP cost.

5 sb/ss veterans are 100 pts with a 3++ and 20 shots vs 5 intercessors for 90, 10 shots and that have two wounds but only have a 3+.

10 points is worth the upgrade.

Ceann wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?

Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.

In my search someone had posted a link to shapeways, so I just order 30 SB's for like 15$. Will take a little work to get them on but should work out.

Have not taken any intercessors, just lean on soup to cover anything else.

FW also makes some nice Combi-Bolters that come with the Alpha Legion unit upgrade kit. Just use the additional bitz somewhere and you're gold.

True, I forgot the points were so close now and the army already has lots of cp sinks. But 4x at 30” range and ap-1 before SIA isn’t too shabby. I like it more than stalker vets anyways.

bobafett012 wrote:
How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?

Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.

I either buy SB bits off eBay or I take othe bolter and convert them into storm bolters. I got a bunch of heresy marines in a trade. So I take the bolters and sand 1 side of each bolter flat them glue the two together. Looks great and is easily identifiable.

bort wrote:
I haven't tried running any math, but I bet intercessors would be pretty good if DW ones could use that Vigilus strat to up grade to vets for +1A and 1cp double shoot.

Deathwatch cannot use Space Marine tactics.

Right, I said if they could. Then maybe Intercessors would be worth at least a quick look unlike now.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Right now I prefer StormVets as the majority of my army, with just 1 Intercessor unit in the backfield.

But I am also preparing my self for the possibility that SB gets removed as a option on Vets (because the kits doesn't include any and with SIA + Bolter Discipline and cheap SS, it seems a logical choice for GW to tone down DW Vets)
If the SB option does get removed from the DW equipment list, than Intercessors will be the obvious choice, IMO.

-

Storm Bolters are in the index. You're fine.

Storm bolters are in the Codex so we're fine. But what happens if GW specifically FAQs the option away to balance the combo of Bolter discipline, special issue ammunition and cheap storm shields? It would make sense because the kit doesn't actually have any SBs

But that's just my speculation for now. But on topic, I'm using GKs as the base for my StormVets. The box comes with more SBs than actual models to put them on.

-

More likely they'll take SIA away unless it's a Terminator or Character.

What everyone should probably be afraid of is them limiting storm shields to partner with melee weapons only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bort wrote:
Right, I said if they could. Then maybe Intercessors would be worth at least a quick look unlike now.

Still won't be valuable...

Those 2CP saved would mean a doctrine you couldn't pop. They'll never be worth a look again as long as storm bolter Vets stay so cheap and still shoot SIA. Now with Bolter Discipline they aren't even worth holding objectives compared to Vets.

The storm bolter makes every weapon option on a Vet a waste of points when instead you could just buy more storm bolter Vets.

Lemondish wrote:

The storm bolter makes every weapon option on a Vet a waste of points when instead you could just buy more storm bolter Vets.

Disagree. Plasma/Combi-plas and Missiles have their places in the Vet arsenal.

Lemondish wrote:

More likely they'll take SIA away unless it's a Terminator or Character.

What everyone should probably be afraid of is them limiting storm shields to partner with melee weapons only.

I've seen both of these suggested, and neither makes any sense to me. StormVets are really the only unit that comes close to OP with the combination of SIA, Bolter Discipline and cheap SS combined.
Every other unit with that can use any of those, really needs to boost. And it seems very clunky to remove SIA from SB, but not on Termies or Characters.

No, because the DW Vet plastic kit does not include SBs at all, it seems to make far more sense (from what GW has done in the past) to just FAQ SBs out of the Deathwatch equipment list entirely. This will terminate several cyber-eagles with a single projectile.
-GW could then claim the DW kit comes with more of its available options,
-they can keep the cheap SS because now you'd only have bolters, combi-weapons and melee weapon to pair with them,
-and Intercessors will seem more appealing by contrast, which would only help GW sales.

So removing the SB from DW Vets tones down the only "OP" combo of all the ruels they get, while not totally nerfing then (they do still have tons of options).
I'm not saying this will happen, just my opinion that if anything were to change, this is the most likely candidate.

Sterling191 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

The storm bolter makes every weapon option on a Vet a waste of points when instead you could just buy more storm bolter Vets.

Disagree. Plasma/Combi-plas and Missiles have their places in the Vet arsenal.

And Frag cannons too. They may have range issues, but man are they good in that range.

-

The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op

Versatilebeats wrote:
The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op

What was the list out of curiosity?