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Postulent wrote:
The way how ts kill culexus though is by charging a bunch of tzaangors into him, who are very good dishing damage to characters in general.

Not that they want to kill the guy, he is way more useful as a hostage and free movement enabler for them to spread out across the board safe from shooting. That is what the cultist blob wants to do too.

Tzaangors are one of the best Culexus hunters, true. But there's a whole lot of armies that don't have them.

What are some tactics or configurations that work to kill Knights for Death Watch?

Im thinking of adding in Dark Angels and Space wolves - to double stack -1 to modifiers on the castellan or crusader and then using smite spam, clavis, tempest shells, and storm bolters wounding on 5's rerolling ones to wound. I still dont think its enough.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
What are some tactics or configurations that work to kill Knights for Death Watch?

Im thinking of adding in Dark Angels and Space wolves - to double stack -1 to modifiers on the castellan or crusader and then using smite spam, clavis, tempest shells, and storm bolters wounding on 5's rerolling ones to wound. I still dont think its enough.

Smash caps, Combi-plasma squads, Dakka with +1 to wound rerolling 1s, tempest and hellfire shells, osseus key. Forgeworld Dreads (I'm not into dreads right now though). Also a Vindicare can throw out some MWs now with turbopen rounds.

Have you tried not worrying about the Knight? Kill off all their infantry in the first two turns while sending random tempest and hellfire shells to plink a few wounds off the Knight. Then the rest of the game focus on winning the mission while chipping wounds off the knight. If you're packing enough storm shields you can mitigate a lot of the damage a knight can do and they won't really be able to have the damage output they are used to.

I'm finding that people get so caught up in the fact that there is a knight on the table that they forget how to play the game. So you spend 2 or 3 turns trying to kill the Knight, all the while his infantry and support are scoring VPs. Instead focus on eliminating his ability to win the mission, and even if he has a full Castellan on the board by the 4th turn, there will be no way he can catch you on VPs. You might not get a crushing victory, but a minor win is still a good thing.

Deathwatch are perfectly situated to kill all the support a Knight may have, and do it quickly. So play to your strengths rather than let your opponent dictate how you are going to play.

Likes Creeping said, play the mission. Strike around the map where you more can hurt and score. Don't get frustrated trying to destroy that knight. Think about the Bacon Angelis and a teleport horner for extra movement options.

So I am kinda thinking that the WL trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge might actually be a better trait than Vigilance Incarnate. For a Watch Master, obviously.

The reason I am think this is because Vigilance Incarnate has a one time only use. And since you could use the Adaptive tactics stratagem to the same thing, all it really does is save 1CP.

Lord of Hidden Knowledge, otoh, gives you a once per game re-roll (thereby saving a CP on a Commande re-roll) AND could regain CPs on 5+
I really don't see the point in Vigilance Incarnate over taking Lord of Hidden Knowledge + Adaptive Tactics. The later should end up giving you at minimum 1 more CP in the long run and potentially many more.

Thoughts?

-

 Galef wrote:
So I am kinda thinking that the WL trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge might actually be a better Trait than Vigilance Incarnate. For a Watch Master, obviously.

The reason I am think this is because Vigilance Incarnate has a one time only use. And since you could use the Adaptive tactics stratagem to the same thing, all it really does is save 1CP.

Lord of Hidden Knowledge, otoh, gives you a once per game re-roll (thereby saving a CP on a Commande re-roll) AND could regain CPs on 5+
I really don't see the point in Vigilance Incarnate over taking Lord of Hidden Knowledge + Adaptive Tactics. The later should end up giving you at minimum 1 more CP in the long run and potentially many more.

Thoughts?

-

Yeah Vigilance is an absolute awful warlord trait and always has been.

I have not had luck with the lord of hidden knowledge. Used it twice and never rolled a single 5+. I usually use castellan of the black vault to make my watch master hit and shoot harder. I use mine closely with kill teams so he frequently sees combat.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
What are some tactics or configurations that work to kill Knights for Death Watch?

Im thinking of adding in Dark Angels and Space wolves - to double stack -1 to modifiers on the castellan or crusader and then using smite spam, clavis, tempest shells, and storm bolters wounding on 5's rerolling ones to wound. I still dont think its enough.

Smash caps, Combi-plasma squads, Dakka with +1 to wound rerolling 1s, tempest and hellfire shells, osseus key. Forgeworld Dreads (I'm not into dreads right now though). Also a Vindicare can throw out some MWs now with turbopen rounds.

Have you tried not worrying about the Knight? Kill off all their infantry in the first two turns while sending random tempest and hellfire shells to plink a few wounds off the Knight. Then the rest of the game focus on winning the mission while chipping wounds off the knight. If you're packing enough storm shields you can mitigate a lot of the damage a knight can do and they won't really be able to have the damage output they are used to.

I'm finding that people get so caught up in the fact that there is a knight on the table that they forget how to play the game. So you spend 2 or 3 turns trying to kill the Knight, all the while his infantry and support are scoring VPs. Instead focus on eliminating his ability to win the mission, and even if he has a full Castellan on the board by the 4th turn, there will be no way he can catch you on VPs. You might not get a crushing victory, but a minor win is still a good thing.

Deathwatch are perfectly situated to kill all the support a Knight may have, and do it quickly. So play to your strengths rather than let your opponent dictate how you are going to play.

That is good point to tale. But in my situation, I usually get tabled by the Knights within 3 to 4 battle rounds, by when maybe I just barely managed to kill all the IGs.

I’m considering adding the Tempestus Drop Force vigilus detachment. And a Krast Crusader.

I'm planning a list that I hope will be competitive - I'm not going to LVO or anything (ever), but I like to be able to stand up to the people in my area that run the good things. What do you generals think about the following list?

Deathwatch Battallion
Watch Master
Librarian with JP
3x 10 Veterans - Each with a Sergeant, Black Shield, VanVet, and Terminator, everything with Storm Bolters, 2-3 Vets with a Storm Shield
2x Quad Mortar/HB Rapiers NOT Heavy Bolter Tarantulas as I originally said
2x Leviathan Dreadnoughts with Grav

Black Templar Batallion
2x Captains with TH, SH, and JP
3x Scout Squads

I chose Grav for the Leviathans with the idea that I would deep strike them in after clearing chaff, and get to the yummy nougaty center of whatever Knight or Tank my opponent has. I could also run the Levis in the BT batallion with claws/drills and, after clearing chaff, deep strike in and get rerolls to charge (though in my experience even the reroll doesn't get them in often enough). The smash captains are backup AT or whatever. I chose Black Templars over Blood Angels because the BA strats for the Smash Captain are CP intensive, and because the BT strat 'Abhor the Witch' is a pretty handy deny and not as big of a CP drain. Sure, I have 13 CP, but they don't really last very long.

You need 2 heavy support options for the Levi’s. Unless you meant 2 of those quad guns instead of 2 tarantulas. Tarantulas are fast attack.

I did mean the Quad Rapier, oops. Thanks for saying something, I was about to order Tarantulas Are the rapiers about the same in terms of points, compared to tarantulas? The points on this list will be tight. I haven't gotten Imperial Armor yet, ordering it with my dreads and rapiers.

I’m at work and can’t check, but I want to say the tarantula is 37 and the quad rapier is 85ish?
Edit: err, just realized I’m conflating the laser destroyer and the quad mortar. Either way pretty sure you need like 80-100 more pts for the 2.

Thanks! I will make sure to order the right thing... In the mean time, I appreciate any feedback anyone has on this prospective list. Levis are expensive, I want to make sure I'm planning things well

Any advice on a 1k list?

I tried to implement a Knight in it but its harder than i thought.

Aleister_Dakka wrote:
I'm planning a list that I hope will be competitive - I'm not going to LVO or anything (ever), but I like to be able to stand up to the people in my area that run the good things. What do you generals think about the following list?

Deathwatch Battallion
Watch Master
Librarian with JP
3x 10 Veterans - Each with a Sergeant, Black Shield, VanVet, and Terminator, everything with Storm Bolters, 2-3 Vets with a Storm Shield
2x Quad Mortar/HB Rapiers NOT Heavy Bolter Tarantulas as I originally said
2x Leviathan Dreadnoughts with Grav

Black Templar Batallion
2x Captains with TH, SH, and JP
3x Scout Squads

I chose Grav for the Leviathans with the idea that I would deep strike them in after clearing chaff, and get to the yummy nougaty center of whatever Knight or Tank my opponent has. I could also run the Levis in the BT batallion with claws/drills and, after clearing chaff, deep strike in and get rerolls to charge (though in my experience even the reroll doesn't get them in often enough). The smash captains are backup AT or whatever. I chose Black Templars over Blood Angels because the BA strats for the Smash Captain are CP intensive, and because the BT strat 'Abhor the Witch' is a pretty handy deny and not as big of a CP drain. Sure, I have 13 CP, but they don't really last very long.

Switch the grav on the leviathans to storm cannons. Way more useful against a wider array of targets, longer range, more consistent, and you can wound T8 on 4's with the +1 to wound strat with 20 shots so you're not even giving up much in terms of anti vehicle.

Thanks! I got home and added up the cost in points, counting Rapiers as 85 points each (other sources online are pointing to that number too, my books are in the mail). With the Levis, choosing storm over grav frees up 50 points each. With that, I'm still over by 35 pts with the BT Batallion, so instead I'm going to go with a Sisters detachment of 2x Canonness and 3x Battle Sister Squads as Order of the Ebon Veil with the Brazier relic.. This gives me 7 denies per turn between my Librarian, Sisters, and their DTW strategem, instead of 1 deny and 2x Smash Captains. Seems like a decent trade. This puts me at only 1863 points so I'm working out what to add. I've considered making the Vets squads into Intercessor mixed squads, but I think I like the SB/SS builds. If anyone has any other ideas for the last 137 points, or any other constructive criticism, that would be great.

Batallions only have 3 heavy slots so no 2x levis and 2x support.

You gotta add a heavy detachment, meaning another bad DW HQ choice (I really wish we got tech marines) but there's your 137 points (over-priced DW smash captain)

The sisters aren't filling any holes in your army (more bolter shots). Scouts are really good troops and BT smash bros aren't terrible

I'd drop a termie and a couple storm shields from one of your vet squads and keep the BT slam caps.

I feel like the Sisters Batallion helps against Smite spam (adds 6 denies to the army) and also key powers vs. armies like Eldar and GSC while giving me more Obsec.

Good call on the detachment limits, thanks for the oversight! I will go with a DW Smash Captain.

Regarding Relic units, does the 'tax' unit have to be in the same detachment as the Relic? That would make things a little hairy.

If you are already taking some Terminators with SB/fist in your Vet units, is there any reason not to also take the Meltagun? Aside from points.

I have 2 units in particular that are designed to be up close and personal. Each unit look like this:
3 SB/SS Vets, 1 TH/SB Sgt, 1 TH/SB Black Shield
1 Bike, 2 Axe/SS Vanguard Vets, 1 SB/Powerfist Terminator

The plan is to use the movement of the Bike & VVs to slingshot the unit forward into melee, then fallback, shoot and assault again. Seems like having a Melta in each unit might come in handy
Thoughts?

-

My plan for the Terminators is just for them to use their 2+ and 2W to tank small arms fire, the Morale protection is a decent bonus too. If I have the points I could maybe see a melta on them, but in my experience that 12" doesn't reliably get me to the targets I want to hit anyway so I would only do it if I didn't need points for anything else. I see Vets as primarily a chaff-clearing unit that sometimes Heroically Intervenes in for some free whacks before it falls back to do it again.

Concerning the use of Vets as an assault unit... My background is as a Black Templars player, and I was very unimpressed by the minimal impact of going the assault route with Space Marine equivalent bodies. VS Tau or Eldar gunlines, it's decent if you can get in and survive overwatch, but not remarkable; otherwise it can be suicide against a lot of screens. I am experimenting with a Vet squad that is squadded into 5 Vets with 2 HB/ 2ML for the backfield and 3x Bikes with 2x VVs for Objectives and chaff clearing and I like it a lot - but charging the bikes/vvs into combat hasn't been the greatest and gets them killed sometimes,I like the shooting much more. The issue wit using Bikes/VVs to 'slingshot' is that your other units can't keep up and you have to maintain coherency.

Aleister_Dakka wrote:
I am experimenting with a Vet squad that is squadded into 5 Vets with 2 HB/ 2ML for the backfield and 3x Bikes with 2x VVs for Objectives and chaff clearing and I like it a lot - but charging the bikes/vvs into combat hasn't been the greatest and gets them killed sometimes,I like the shooting much more.

This is one of my two default Vet configurations (with MLs). SIA plus the beta bolter rule allows the SBs to punch out to 30 inches with four shots apiece, while the MLs do their work across the whole board, and in the meantime the Bike/VV work as general skirmish units that can fulfill multiple roles. Punch through a screen, tie up armor, nab an objective, you name it. Use terrain and their mobility to your advantage and they will win you matches.

Remember to put SS on the VanVets and the end result is a T5 3++ squad that can go to a 2+ standard save if it can get cover (since they dont have the BIKER keyword they can technically make full use of terrain cover by the yby).

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Smash caps, Combi-plasma squads, Dakka with +1 to wound rerolling 1s, tempest and hellfire shells, osseus key. Forgeworld Dreads (I'm not into dreads right now though). Also a Vindicare can throw out some MWs now with turbopen rounds.

Am I missing something? I've seen a couple of you guys mention +1 to wound strat and rerolling 1's against Knights, but I'm not seeing a strategem or tactic for Lords of War.

 lessthanjeff wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

Smash caps, Combi-plasma squads, Dakka with +1 to wound rerolling 1s, tempest and hellfire shells, osseus key. Forgeworld Dreads (I'm not into dreads right now though). Also a Vindicare can throw out some MWs now with turbopen rounds.

Am I missing something? I've seen a couple of you guys mention +1 to wound strat and rerolling 1's against Knights, but I'm not seeing a strategem or tactic for Lords of War.

You're looking for the Malleus Doctrine, page 97, 1st column, 4th strategem and the Malleus mission tactic, pg 94. Both affect Heavy Support and Lords of War units.

That explains it, didn't realize that one was doing double duty. Guess I skimmed too fast when I saw the heavy support and I was looking for a separate one. Thank you sir!

Hi

Does anyone have good experience with DW Bikers? (Want to get opinions before buying them)

On paper they look pretty good. For 5 points more than SS/SB veterans you get same amount of SIA shots, have 1 more attack if you pick chainswords, 5thougness, 1more W and Significantly higher movement.

Does the mixed units and 3++ really worth it more in anyones testing?

Bikes alone in DW are a stupid choice if you can combat squad them out of a troop choice while combining them with vanguard veterans who can take SS.

 combatcotton wrote:
Bikes alone in DW are a stupid choice if you can combat squad them out of a troop choice while combining them with vanguard veterans who can take SS.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Both are good choices.

For 81pts you get 6 T5 wounds, 16 SIA shots (even at full range even when moving), a storm shield, and a teleport homer. They make a great screen that takes dedicated shooting to get rid of, can have a very long footprint, and are fast enough to really inhibit enemy movement. And sure they aren't troops, but they can still get to objectives and table quarters to score.

I rank them as the second best unit in the codex (characters aside) since chapter approved and the Beta Bolter rule came out, only behind Veterans in effectiveness.

A pure 3 dudes bike unit rarely has 6 wounds and more often just 3.

On the community facebook page it has been confirmed that one can use the new primaris with all available different chapters.

Also as the leaks are already going around I ask everybody what do you think about the new models?

I think there could be some nice synergies with DW. However it all depends on the point costs of those units.