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Sterling191 wrote:

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 LunarSol wrote:
It's not all bad. We benefit more than most from the changes to Gravis armor and Assault Bolters. Shock Assault makes some vet builds worth reconsidering (before realizing we should be in melee) and its not like we didn't have a little extra ground to give. We're not getting Phobos armor until they release a kit that has a modular shouldpad spot anyway.

Yet we already have Rievers. And while I like A3 on ABRs, without a cost effective delivery mechanism, foot slogging is still a pain (even with turbo-boosting from an Aggressor friend).

We also have a Reiver kit with modular shoulder pads.

I've not had a problem delivering 5 Assaults, 4 Aggressors and an Inceptor. Since they don't have to get to half range they cover quite a bit of board space, particularly with Kraken rounds.

Love the "we essentially gave Codex Marines SIA with Discipline but it's way to good for you guys so here's our previous nerfing for your enjoyment"

 Eldarain wrote:
Love the "we essentially gave Codex Marines SIA with Discipline but it's way to good for you guys so here's our previous nerfing for your enjoyment"

"Oh and we can sorta get Codex Marines to replicate Kraken so you're not unique anymore!"

Yeah I don't get that, I was sure we weren't getting the new units, aside from the one I didn't care about, but why we don't get any of the other units, I figured they couldn't be bothered to think on that one.

As well, why leave the nerf for SIA in for bolter discipline when regular marines get the extra ap most all the time on lots of different guns with doctrines ? It does feel just a touch spiteful and lazy.

More amusement: DW is stuck with the non-updated version of Null Zone.

Had that sinking familiar feeling today as I was trying out some list building.

You know, the one you used to get with IG. You decide to build a 2-part soup list. Put in all your fave DW units. Then turn to a Phobos-themed marine battalion to support. Add more marines, trim less good stuff from the DW side. Eventually you're left with a Watchmaster, a Watchcaptain and 3 squads of vets, and that's really it.

That just comes down to your preference for Storm Shields, and hellfire rounds, and perhaps T2 DS. Everything else is now redundant.

It's really not all doom and gloom.
DW still soups really well, which marines don't get if they want their doctrines (including assassins).
DW also have far superior defensive stats over regular marines, so not concerned there.
Adding the Executioner offers good AT (at a premium though), but can be given a 5++ because of relic shield.
Shock Assault allows us to have a nice PF armed Blackshield do some work.
We also still have 21pt Thunderhammers for our characters

DW soups well because it doesn't benefit from any non-soup buffs, that's all.

I agree on toughness I suppose, but it really does depend what chapter you're talking about. My Siegebreaker IF intercessors save on 2+ and ignore -1ap, they are hench. If you want ss/sb, vets do a similar job now that their storm bolters fire at -1ap on the turn they'll be dropping in. Again, before even IF supplement drops, my vets are cheaper, ignore cover, shoot at -1 and score extra hits on 6s. Only thing missing is Hellfire.

Executioner is just too expensive imo, and the shield only works T1 if you go first, making them too swingy.

Shock assault is great, no doubt - for half the armies in the game (DW, SW, DA, BA, SMs, CSMs, TS, DG, GKs)... we're gonna be eating those extra hits as much as we're dealing them out.

I guess THs are a silver lining

And by “silver lining” you mean “they totally forgot they changed it and left it out of the errata”.

Depending on how much Codex Withering Hail of Bullets affects the meta, having Storm Shields on our troops might not be that useful.


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That Honoured Sergeant Ultramarine Strat is crazy. 1CP to make an Aggressor Sergeant who is moving and firing at full effect +1 damage on all his shooting and melee attacks!

Yeah, the game is going to change quite a bit over the next few months. I do think we'll eventually get a supplement rework, but that's in a year or so.

The new SM codex feels like a significant jump forward in 8th edition, and who knows, in a SM meta, maybe hellfire will have a role to play in a gatekeeper list?

I got an idea from recent Marine Codex

With the new litany of battle, use catechism of fire on any DW dakkabots, tanks, and whatnot to maximize the pain and then stack with the doctrine strategem for +2 to wound total against just about everything.

For example, Primaris Hellblasters wound a knight on a 4+ when overcharged, with catechism of fire and Malleus doctrine strategem and mission tactics, you wound a knight on a 2+ with re-roll 1s to wound.

Better yet, Fire raptor, 24 heavy bolter shots with above mentioned combo, you now wound a knight on a 3+, in addition to 3+ to wound avenger bolt cannons, and 2+ to wound lascannons. Better yet, have a character with tomb of ectoclades and give it re-roll to wound for maximum pain. A Imperial knight will most likely die from that amount of fire power.

The new chaplain's litany of battle has added a lot of tactical flexibility to DW and stacking with Mission Tactics and Doctrine Strategems, DW can create some nasty combo more so than regular SM.

Are you allying in a Chaplain? Does the C:SM Chaplains new abilities work on Deathwatch units?

No they don't, they're chapter-locked.

Also the raptor would have to be shooting at the nearest target for that chap buff to work, meaning the raptor and the chap would have to line up a tricky shot...

The end result of which would do 4.15 from the auto cannons, 4.55 from the las and 5.19 from the avenger. Solid numbers for sure, and it's dropped almost 14 damage on a knight. But it costs 420 for the raptor, 90 for the jump-chap and 2cp.


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I do think we'll eventually get a nuchaplain, but the litanies will be specifically balanced for DW. Same with the other weirdo chapters. Just a hunch.

I’ll have to double check that there aren’t any restrictions ala the Daemon Codex, but the new SM strata generally key off of the Astartes keyword. There might be some play in a small detachment to unlock those for us to use.

Some of those could be very useful.

Apparently Primaris KT just got much better.
According to BattleScribe one of Aggressors special rule was „Aggressors in this unit may fire twice if stayed still in the preceding movement phase“ this was changed in current FAQ to read „MODELS in this unit may fire twice“.

I dont know if this was intended (probably not) but its a BIG improvement for Deathwatch

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Apparently Primaris KT just got much better.
According to BattleScribe one of Aggressors special rule was „Aggressors in this unit may fire twice if stayed still in the preceding movement phase“ this was changed in current FAQ to read „MODELS in this unit may fire twice“.

I dont know if this was intended (probably not) but its a BIG improvement for Deathwatch

I want to exploit that so hard not gonna lie.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Apparently Primaris KT just got much better.
According to BattleScribe one of Aggressors special rule was „Aggressors in this unit may fire twice if stayed still in the preceding movement phase“ this was changed in current FAQ to read „MODELS in this unit may fire twice“.

I dont know if this was intended (probably not) but its a BIG improvement for Deathwatch

Unless the DW Intercessor datasheet is updated though (and it wasnt), it wont affect DW. The Aggressor double tap comes from the mixed unit rules, not the Aggressor Datasheet.

Which also suddenly makes me question if Aggressors in Fortis teams get their additional wound or attack...

Ok strike that, brain was bring dumb. No argument on Gravis updates. Still not convinced the Aggressors in Fortis teams get the new Storm of Fire (or Riever rules for that matter).

Intercessors have the Firestorm rule that was updated but the FAQ updated the unit Aggressors IIRC.

 Eldarain wrote:
Intercessors have the Firestorm rule that was updated but the FAQ updated the unit Aggressors IIRC.

The update PDF calls out specific unit datasheets before it mentions associated abilities. The update to Storm of Fire is mentioned for Aggressors, not Intercessors.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Intercessors have the Firestorm rule that was updated but the FAQ updated the unit Aggressors IIRC.

The update PDF calls out specific unit datasheets before it mentions associated abilities. The update to Storm of Fire is mentioned for Aggressors, not Intercessors.

That's what I said.

Edit: disregard previous message. My local GW manager led me astray on some rules. I now know better.

I really do think 5 assault intercessors and an aggressor for 127pts is the best cheap troop choice we have now...
1 each inty puts 3 shots out with a maximum 36+d6 threat range
2 they are great anti horde
3 they're decent movers and obj grabbers
4 they have decent CC threat now and
5 they keep costs relatively low, making it possible to unlock double battalion for pure DW.

I think I'm going to try running 4, plus a backfield stalker/mortal wound vet team & 1 bells and whistles DS Vet team for my 6 troop choices. Only 1 unit using the DS tax, but lots of movement available, meaning 12 CPs for lots of Strats.

I’m giving Bolter inceptors a hard look now. At the new price point with the additional wound they’re shaping up as intriguing skirmisher gunships. Obviously they don’t have the range or melee capacity of the Intergressor team, but for zooming and making a general pain in the ass (and therefore drawing fire from core kill teams) they have potential.


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I would seriously consider investing in the power fist option for those Sarges. 8 powerfist attack’s on the charge from each squad is not something to take lightly.

Right on both counts brother! 5- or 6-man inceptor teams are legit for their price, and they can do something very rare for the unit across the rosters: +1 to wound. I'm currently kitbashing 7 inceptors with aggressor bodies to make them look less kooky - I'm expecting to use them a lot.

It is a bit annoying that we did not get proper updates but I guess we will get a lot cleared when our new Codex eventually comes. Just need to be patient.

However, I do not believe we will get Vanguard stuff because it doesn't fit the lore. Correct me if I am wrong but the Vanguard is supposed to be the "scout" for primaris right? Deathwatch only takes proven veterans, so by that lore we should not see Vanguard anytime soon. But then it also depends if the people writing the DW know that

Vanguards are functionally an expansion on Reivers when it comes to fluff. They're just a sneaky band of Primaris battle-Brothers. No neophytes need apply.

The very fact DW got Primaris so soon is a little odd. As well if you read the new fluff for it, Gman even tasked a few fresh whole chapters of primaris marines straight to the Deathwatch to give them bodies when they were pumped out. So the Deathwatch only taking vets thing has been a little washed away as of the last book.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
The very fact DW got Primaris so soon is a little odd. As well if you read the new fluff for it, Gman even tasked a few fresh whole chapters of primaris marines straight to the Deathwatch to give them bodies when they were pumped out. So the Deathwatch only taking vets thing has been a little washed away as of the last book.

We're at minimum a century past the Ultima Founding. And plenty of the Primaris walking up out of Cawl's freezer were already seasoned veterans of the Great Crusade. There's no lore disconnect.

If you say so. However, some technology is still considered un tested after a mere few hundred years in service in the IoM. As well I don't see how being in a freezer for thousands of years would somehow make them the best of the best compared to those of the time in constant state of action. If anything they'd be a bit behind the times and antiquated.

Like, I'd probably value the tactical use of someone constantly fighting eldar over someone who fought an eldar once like 10k years ago and hasn't touched one since but has been napping instead.Using Eldar as an alien race that the xeno hunting arm of the inquisition might engage. So to me, that feels like fluff disconnect to be sure.