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5 assault intercessors, 4 aggresors and an inceptor
7 vets, 2 termis and a vanguard vet
5 assault intercessors and an aggressor
6 DS aggressors
5 intercessors and 5 hellblasters
jumpcap with beacon
watchmaster
Forgeworld stuff
Maybe bikers?
... err...
5/3/2 Vet/Bike/VanVet is as good as it gets for mobile shicanery. It's gonna get murdered by Marine-tier firepower though, even at T5 and a pair of Storm Shields.
Unfortunately, right now Deathwatch are just in a comparatively bad spot in the hierarchy. Yeah we can pull of some shenanigans, but without Doctrines, Super-Doctrines, or non-clunky Mission Tactics we're sub-par Marines without any of the benefits.
Hesselhof wrote: What units you would play in DW mono competativ tourney list?
I want to make 2020 for me the DW tourney year =P and i need some advice
Short Edit: I don´t want you guys to write me a list^^ i just want to discuss and to get the DW to the limit and get the most out of these boys^^
I've been thinking lately about moving away from the standard units listed in Grouchoben's post and trying to minmax for competitive play in a different way.
I like the fluff and models of DW vets as much as the next guy, but I just don't think one-wound marine models are competitive in 8th edition regardless of point cost. It might be time to let go of the DW Vet unit until the rules change.
So then the best way to leverage the one thing DW have going for them (special issue ammo) is to minmax with Intercessors:
5 Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles, with or without an Aggressor (to allow them to move & shoot without penalty, assist with close support/overwatch, and to fight in close combat if necessary)
10 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles popping up from the teleportarium to light up something,
10 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles to camp/hold the middle of the table (bolt rifles have a place in a DW army because the -1AP is important to have in conjunction with Hellfire ammo)
Using Intercessors instead of vets means that you're just doubling wounds for a few points more per model, which is more cost-effective than Vet units trying to tank with terminators and storm shields.
Mixing Aggressors/Inceptors into Intercessor units and/or trying to play the majority toughness game is a trap because Aggressors/Inceptors don't have SIA. So every time you replace an intercessor with a model that costs more and doesn't have SIA (and has shorter range), you lose efficiency.
-You don't need T5 units--just use those points to buy more Intercessors
-You don't need to fall back and shoot--buy more intercessor units to shoot for you when you fall back
-You don't need to spend 37 points for the ability to advance and shoot ABRs with 16% more accuracy
-Hellblasters are much less effective and points-efficient than Intercessors with SBRs, which do the same damage, are better at wounding anything but a vehicle, and don't overheat
So if you take two or three battalions of DW Intercessors supported by the usual good characters, you can shoot to death anything in the game that is not a vehicle (and do it arguably more effectively than regular Space Marines).
And so that just leaves you with the eternal problem of how to kill vehicles with your mono-DW army. Personally I've been looking at a trio of Whirlwind Hyperios from Forge World. A Watch Master can offset the penalty to hit non-flying targets, and against flyers you'd always have solid anti-air. Official models are no longer available, but good turret parts are available third-party.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
Hesselhof wrote: What units you would play in DW mono competativ tourney list?
I want to make 2020 for me the DW tourney year =P and i need some advice
Short Edit: I don´t want you guys to write me a list^^ i just want to discuss and to get the DW to the limit and get the most out of these boys^^
Librarian, Smash Captains and Watch Master
Double Storm Vets with Terminators and a Vanguard
Assault Intercessors with Aggressor(s) and an Inceptor
Leviathan/Contemptor/Deredeo/Venerable Dreadnoughts
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, worth mentioning. One of DW's few remaining advantages over normal marines is the ability to be played with Assassins/Guard/Knights without losing our effectiveness. I know that kind of defeats the point, but its an advantage that shouldn't be ignored.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/07 23:04:47
Id say one could use plasma scions since theyve also gotten cheaper.
Im a *huge* proponent of Scions in support of Deathwatch, both for their cheap density of fire, but also because they give access to the most point efficient psychic defense in the game (Primaris Psykers and Astropaths).
Hesselhof wrote: Argument yes, but for me i want to use mono DW, maybe assassins and or inquisitors^^
The problem with mono deathwatch that I have is that we have no scouts to sit on objectives. Its either move foward and kill the opponents obj holders or hold yours
Yeah, not getting scouts hurts and makes no sense fluffwise. We really should have access to scouts, even if they would be treated like Wolf Scouts and be Elites instead of Troops.
Hesselhof wrote: Argument yes, but for me i want to use mono DW, maybe assassins and or inquisitors^^
The problem with mono deathwatch that I have is that we have no scouts to sit on objectives. Its either move foward and kill the opponents obj holders or hold yours
You can't just use Intercessors? 6 points more per model, but much more durable. Give them stalker bolt rifles and kill things with Hellfire rounds while you camp objectives.
A lot of marine players in my area are phasing out their scouts in favor of primaris troops. Scouts just give up easy kills.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
You can't just use Intercessors? 6 points more per model, but much more durable. Give them stalker bolt rifles and kill things with Hellfire rounds while you camp objectives.
A lot of marine players in my area are phasing out their scouts in favor of primaris troops. Scouts just give up easy kills.
For backfield stuff sure, but forward deployment from Scouts (or Incursors) is a huge asset that DW cant bring to the table right now. In non-ITC games its something that can by itself win you the mission.
Hesselhof wrote: Argument yes, but for me i want to use mono DW, maybe assassins and or inquisitors^^
The problem with mono deathwatch that I have is that we have no scouts to sit on objectives. Its either move foward and kill the opponents obj holders or hold yours
You can also use an Inquisition Detachment (which I would argue kind of goes as mono DW... somewhat) with 3-6 individual 8pt acolytes to camp on objectives.... as characters
Hesselhof wrote: Atm i really like the idea with 3x5 (i guess?) stalker bolt intercessors for backfield screen and objectiv keeper
To me, this unit seems like the killer app of Deathwatch.
The SBR’s built-in -2AP offsets the usual problem that Hellfire rounds have against armor/cover, negating a disadvantage that DW have.
Wounding on a 2+ offsets the Str4 disadvantage that regular Space Marines have with SBRs. This is the one thing that DW Intercessors do better than regular marines.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
Wouldnt normal marines with stalker pattern boltguns be better? For cheaper you get 10 shots (out of 5man squad) and with kraken you get -2ap on the weapon
only minus is they are less tanky
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Wouldnt normal marines with stalker pattern boltguns be better? For cheaper you get 10 shots (out of 5man squad) and with kraken you get -2ap on the weapon
only minus is they are less tanky
SBGs are Heavy 2 30" S4 AP1 D1.
SBRs are Heavy 1 36" S4 AP2 D2.
Hesselhof wrote: So you think 3x5 are enough? or would you build bigger teams? like 3x7 or maybe 3x10? thats 170 points dunno it its worth
I feel like 5 per unit is the magic number for SBR Intercessors. (10 per unit for Bolt Rifle or ABR.) 5 per unit limits casualties, limits the number of guys who can be tagged at one time and prevented from shooting. You're not typically needing to use strategems on them, so there's no benefit to taking a big unit versus taking two minsize units. Personally, I'm putting together 4X5 for a dual battalion.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
Consider putting an Aggressor in a few of those teams if you're planning to run that many. It may seem like a schizophrenic configuration, but for midfield objectives I've found them to be solid gold. Mobility, long range punch, and a credible melee threat for a reasonable point investment.
Sterling191 wrote: Consider putting an Aggressor in a few of those teams if you're planning to run that many. It may seem like a schizophrenic configuration, but for midfield objectives I've found them to be solid gold. Mobility, long range punch, and a credible melee threat for a reasonable point investment.
Definitely. Although I think that adding Aggressors/Inceptors/Hellblasters to Intercessor units in general is a points sink, I can absolutely see the value of adding a single aggressor to some of the 5-man SBR units.
-Because the unit is only 5 anyway, the Aggressor isn't displacing an Intercessor.
-After seeing Iron Hands SBR units in action with the move-and-shoot without penalty, I'm sold on this ability. It seems like only a 16% increase in hits for a 44% increase in cost, but with high-value single-shot firepower, the extra accuracy is more important.
-Non-shooty opponents are going to be wanting to close in and charge those units. The shorter range fire support and especially the overwatch ability of the Aggressor will come into play then.
-Saves you having to buy a power fist for your Intercessor sergeant.
I haven't playtested it yet, so I could be totally wrong. But if you're taking Aggressors anyway, it's not any more expensive to spread them into intercessor units.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
Sterling191 wrote: Consider putting an Aggressor in a few of those teams if you're planning to run that many. It may seem like a schizophrenic configuration, but for midfield objectives I've found them to be solid gold. Mobility, long range punch, and a credible melee threat for a reasonable point investment.
Definitely. Although I think that adding Aggressors/Inceptors/Hellblasters to Intercessor units in general is a points sink, I can absolutely see the value of adding a single aggressor to some of the 5-man SBR units.
-Because the unit is only 5 anyway, the Aggressor isn't displacing an Intercessor.
-After seeing Iron Hands SBR units in action with the move-and-shoot without penalty, I'm sold on this ability. It seems like only a 16% increase in hits for a 44% increase in cost, but with high-value single-shot firepower, the extra accuracy is more important.
-Non-shooty opponents are going to be wanting to close in and charge those units. The shorter range fire support and especially the overwatch ability of the Aggressor will come into play then.
-Saves you having to buy a power fist for your Intercessor sergeant.
I haven't playtested it yet, so I could be totally wrong. But if you're taking Aggressors anyway, it's not any more expensive to spread them into intercessor units.
You're not really doing the maths correctly here. You're assuming that because it jumps 16% for a successful roll of the dice that it is equal to a 16% increase in hits. I am sorry to tell you that this is wrong and isn't really how it works. I am, however, happy to tell you that it's actually better than you think.
To explain, let's take a 5 man SBR unit on the move. It'll hit with half its shots, on average, without any type of supporting cast providing rerolls or bonuses to hit. That means you're looking at an average of 2.5 hits (5 * 0.5 = 2.5).
Now, take that same unit on the move but add an Aggressor (or even consider the same unit as above that stays put) firing those same 5 shots. You're now looking at approximately 3.33 hits on average (5 * 0.66 = 3.33). That's an increase of 0.83 more hits, or 33% compared to the 2.5 hits generated by the unit above. You'll therefore get 33% more hits out of this unit's Stalker rifles with an Aggressor attached than you would without one.
Then consider, as you have, that you're also adding the Aggressor's not inconsiderable firepower and melee capability and it seems like a great addition. I've always enjoyed this 6 man unit with the auto-bolt rifle option for an in your face mobile threat that can punch hard on the charge. The only thing I feel it's missing is a Primaris option for a black shield. That wish is based solely on the amount of times I would have liked to increase the threat profile of the unit with the threat of a HI.
I would disagree with your point that the addition of Aggressors, Inceptors, and Hellblasters to Intercessor squads is a points sink. Your last point is a very good reason why it isn't one - if those are units you decide you want anyway, especially if they fill needs you can't achieve with Intercessors alone, then adding them as troops to Intercessor squads is fundamentally more effective than adding them as separate units. Benefits include better CP generation, no issues with the rule of 3, ablative wounds to protect those slightly more dangerous options, the ability to spread these threats around, and the synergy you gain from overlapping bonuses for the unit.
As an aside, I expect to see the bolt weapons of Aggressors and Inceptors eventually receive SIA once whatever PA for DW comes knocking. In a world where tactical doctrine bonuses to AP exists for these weapons, it would not be disruptive to expect SIA to extend to them as well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/11 13:02:59
Sterling191 wrote: Consider putting an Aggressor in a few of those teams if you're planning to run that many. It may seem like a schizophrenic configuration, but for midfield objectives I've found them to be solid gold. Mobility, long range punch, and a credible melee threat for a reasonable point investment.
Definitely. Although I think that adding Aggressors/Inceptors/Hellblasters to Intercessor units in general is a points sink, I can absolutely see the value of adding a single aggressor to some of the 5-man SBR units.
-Because the unit is only 5 anyway, the Aggressor isn't displacing an Intercessor.
-After seeing Iron Hands SBR units in action with the move-and-shoot without penalty, I'm sold on this ability. It seems like only a 16% increase in hits for a 44% increase in cost, but with high-value single-shot firepower, the extra accuracy is more important.
-Non-shooty opponents are going to be wanting to close in and charge those units. The shorter range fire support and especially the overwatch ability of the Aggressor will come into play then.
-Saves you having to buy a power fist for your Intercessor sergeant.
I haven't playtested it yet, so I could be totally wrong. But if you're taking Aggressors anyway, it's not any more expensive to spread them into intercessor units.
You're not really doing the maths correctly here. You're assuming that because it jumps 16% for a successful roll of the dice that it is equal to a 16% increase in hits. I am sorry to tell you that this is wrong and isn't really how it works. I am, however, happy to tell you that it's actually better than you think.
To explain, let's take a 5 man SBR unit on the move. It'll hit with half its shots, on average, without any type of supporting cast providing rerolls or bonuses to hit. That means you're looking at an average of 2.5 hits (5 * 0.5 = 2.5).
Now, take that same unit on the move but add an Aggressor (or even consider the same unit as above that stays put) firing those same 5 shots. You're now looking at approximately 3.33 hits on average (5 * 0.66 = 3.33). That's an increase of 0.83 more hits, or 33% compared to the 2.5 hits generated by the unit above. You'll therefore get 33% more hits out of this unit's Stalker rifles with an Aggressor attached than you would without one.
Then consider, as you have, that you're also adding the Aggressor's not inconsiderable firepower and melee capability and it seems like a great addition. I've always enjoyed this 6 man unit with the auto-bolt rifle option for an in your face mobile threat that can punch hard on the charge. The only thing I feel it's missing is a Primaris option for a black shield. That wish is based solely on the amount of times I would have liked to increase the threat profile of the unit with the threat of a HI.
I would disagree with your point that the addition of Aggressors, Inceptors, and Hellblasters to Intercessor squads is a points sink. Your last point is a very good reason why it isn't one - if those are units you decide you want anyway, especially if they fill needs you can't achieve with Intercessors alone, then adding them as troops to Intercessor squads is fundamentally more effective than adding them as separate units. Benefits include better CP generation, no issues with the rule of 3, ablative wounds to protect those slightly more dangerous options, the ability to spread these threats around, and the synergy you gain from overlapping bonuses for the unit.
As an aside, I expect to see the bolt weapons of Aggressors and Inceptors eventually receive SIA once whatever PA for DW comes knocking. In a world where tactical doctrine bonuses to AP exists for these weapons, it would not be disruptive to expect SIA to extend to them as well.
Thanks. I stand corrected on my faulty math.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
Disco Lord
3 Sorc
3 obis
3 Deredeos
2 Decimater
60 Cultists
Alpha and Iron Warriors /Soulforged pack
We played ITC mission 6
Till round 5 i was in lead with points, then he tabled me and made points and won, dang ^^
I liked my list, it was tough had good punch, but i made a few gameplay fails, forgot some gems etc. gues i will use this list for the tourney in march.
Do you guys may have some optimizing tipps? =)
Admech & Deathwatch --------------------------------------
Don´t Hessel the Hof
Hey guys, can i equip a watch captain with stormbolter and master crafted boltgun? And: if i do can i use bane bolts of erexia for both weapons each shooting phase?
Admech & Deathwatch --------------------------------------
Don´t Hessel the Hof
If we use SIA on Terminators or Bikers and they are not within 12“ they won‘t get 4 shots because SIA is not working with Bolter Discipline am I right?
That is how SIA and Bolter Discipline interact, yes. Although using Kraken rounds means you could get extra shots at 15 instead of 12 due to the extra range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/21 16:11:55
Played last saturday against the possessed bomb, worked quite well just a 15-17 lose (ITC) we stopped after 3 hours in turn 3, he needed the most time, if we had used a chess clock, he would have run out of time
Tommorow i play against astra militarum
Admech & Deathwatch --------------------------------------
Don´t Hessel the Hof
Admech & Deathwatch
