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Soup or gtfo. I'm utterly non-plussed by GW on this one folks.

The fact that even GW wasn't shameless enough to try to charge money (beyond the normal WD price) for this junk is a pretty good clue of how much they care about the faction.

The addition of doctrines means you’ll be much easier to ally with now that you don’t cause the loss of other marines to lose their doctrines (besides their super doctrine)

storm bolter vets in a pod with storm shields will clear chaff very easily and bikers will also benefit quite a but. All in all though DW have gotten a lot better with those marine strats.

I wouldn’t be too sad though, I think what this ultimately means with lack of vanguard units etc is that you will be getting new kits and a new codex once 9 th drops. Before the other chapters who have basically already gotten the codex treatment.

demontalons wrote:

I wouldn’t be too sad though, I think what this ultimately means with lack of vanguard units etc is that you will be getting new kits and a new codex once 9 th drops. Before the other chapters who have basically already gotten the codex treatment.

"Wait till next edition for kits that have already been out for thirteen months so you can maybe be where other Codices are at right now".

feth off with that.

demontalons wrote:
All in all though DW have gotten a lot better with those marine strats.

Aside from Transhuman, which are the standout strats that benefit DW, in your opinion?

Really, DW got waaaayyy bettor with these updates. Ummmmm.....I'll take 6 aggressors, deep strike them, and steady advance them. Litny of Focus on hellblasters and have them next to a captain. If you want to get a little crazy, jump a captain up the board turn 1 with the beacon. Put litny of focus on the aggressors and then steady advance. A crap ton of shots basically all hitting. Then you could go even more over board and spend a couple more command points and add 1 to wound....and you still can reroll ones. Combos can get a little nuts. This took all of 30 sec of thought. I don't see why people are so ....Deathwatch sucks, marines are still supreme.

No they didn't.

Steady advance has zero effect on Aggressors. Go read the strat again.

Litanies are the standout in the update, but seeing how we don't have access to the master of litany strat we are relying on it going off on a 3+, that's not nearly reliable enough to base a build around. Even so, I expect to see a chap in every DW list from now on, regardless of us having the absolute worst chaplains in the game

You think rerolling 1s is nuts? On the subject of rerolls, did you notice how the Watchmaster is the only chaptermaster tha doesn't get to reroll all hits?

People are down on the DW 'update' because a) it's the most halfhearted and lackluster rules release to date in 8th's history, b) only the executioner is DW-unlocked out of all the marine units released in the past two years, c) there was not a single rule, relic, strat or trait unique to DW in their PS update, unlike every other faction with the exception of Ynnari, and d) they understand the faction and the rules. People coming along saying 'lol what's the tears about?' are missing one or both of those things.

specia_k_squared wrote:
Really, DW got waaaayyy bettor with these updates. Ummmmm.....I'll take 6 aggressors, deep strike them, and steady advance them. Litny of Focus on hellblasters and have them next to a captain. If you want to get a little crazy, jump a captain up the board turn 1 with the beacon. Put litny of focus on the aggressors and then steady advance. A crap ton of shots basically all hitting. Then you could go even more over board and spend a couple more command points and add 1 to wound....and you still can reroll ones. Combos can get a little nuts. This took all of 30 sec of thought. I don't see why people are so ....Deathwatch sucks, marines are still supreme.

Aggressors dont benefit from Bolter Discipline, and by pulling them away from their buffing Chaplain you've negated their +1 to hit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
c) there was not a single rule, relic, strat or trait unique to DW in their PS update

Want to re-emphasize this. What Deathwatch got hit with wasnt a PA update. It was their overdue, and still somehow inferior, Marine Summer Update.

I could be wrong, but aggressors get the bolter discipline ability and as stated in the angels of death rule. The stratagem steady advance works on them. Yes, you don't get SIA, but you still count as not moving, hence double the shots. Other argument of litinies, am I wrong about that the unit doesn't lose its effect outside of 6". You have to be within 6" for the litny], but then you can do whatever afterwards. Please forgive my ignorance on this, I only have played as dw and not marines so this is new to me all these toys.

You're fine brother, the rules are a right mess at the moment. Bolter Discipline lets you fire double the number of shots on a rapid fire weapon, if the unit meets certain criteria. One of those criteria is not moving. The strat lets you count as not moving, hence providing BD. But of course Aggressors are armed with assault weapons, not rapid fire, and so the abiity, and strat, have no effect on it at all.

 grouchoben wrote:


You think rerolling 1s is nuts? On the subject of rerolls, did you notice how the Watchmaster is the only chaptermaster tha doesn't get to reroll all hits?.

That's not true, neither Dante or Azrael had their rules changed in this respect.

Just had a read through the WD rules, truly the laziest of cut and paste jobs :-(

That said the faction does take a massive step up with just these basic marine bonuses, Doctrines are huge as are Litanies and some of the strats (looking at you transhuman). Add to that bolter disc seems to work with SIA now and we can certainly compete, perhaps not with the very best marine lists but alot better than before.

It's really just disappointing that GW couldn't put even a single unique DW thing in these rules, no super doc, no chapter Litany, not even a couple of new strats to fill in the empty space on the second strat page, very poor :-/

- Bolter discipline does not work with SIA, nothing's changed there - the faq targets the SIA rule and excludes it.

- Litanies are great when they go off, but 3+ with no master of litanies strat is whiffy.

SIA have hard caps on their rend so bolt rifles, stalkers, stalker bolt rifles etc won't benefit from them. Hellfire stormbolters DSing on turn 2 are the big winners for sure.

Transhuman is great for us in late game. First two turns if you pop it then they switch fire to one of your other expensive killteams, as your army is basically marine spam.

Yeah, it's really disappointing ain't it?

 grouchoben wrote:

SIA have hard caps on their rend so bolt rifles, stalkers, stalker bolt rifles etc won't benefit from them. Hellfire stormbolters DSing on turn 2 are the big winners for sure.

I genuinely hate that we're about to become a hellfire spam army. SIA is supposed to be "pick the right bullet for the job". Now it's going to be "use that one bullet, because the other three magically dont function because reasons" for anything that isn't an AP0 weapon.

Yeah me too, I actually wish they'd remove hellfire, redesign SIA and the army roster. But we are where we are!

https://www.facebook.com/warhammer40000uk/posts/2606393553014601

K, i´ll wait

 Hesselhof wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/warhammer40000uk/posts/2606393553014601

K, i´ll wait

I wont. Its the same tripe theyve been throwing at us since Shadowspear. I'll believe it when I have a rules update in my hands that doesnt look like it was crafted by a high school work-study student.

What would they have to lie to us and put us off?

 Hesselhof wrote:
What would they have to lie to us and put us off?

You mean like why would they lie to us about being in a PA book and getting a PA rules update?

0:1 for you =P

40K Community page: "We don't hate them.... just wait and see!" ... There you go, a little more credence to the Inquisiton theory...

We have to wait for new marine releases so we can get vanguard units when they have been nerfed and are 3years old!

 grouchoben wrote:
40K Community page: "We don't hate them.... just wait and see!" ... There you go, a little more credence to the Inquisiton theory...

Keep on reaching for those straws. The Community team has an exceptional track record of being noncommittal, vague and downright wrong about anything and everything involving rules and updates.

let's be real here, he's referring to the WD update. It has not officially released yet. The wait and see is referring to the gak show we already know exists, lol.

As to the discussion with SIA, I totally agree. It's such a waste for the most part (unless you happen to be shooting at a vehicle, or range dictates you'll get more shots in with kraken) when the default is almost always hellfire.

Question, is there an overview of the actual changes? Have been reading people's comments, would like to see a complete run down.

There you go: 14 copy/paste strats and basic doctrines & litanies, nothing else.

https://imgur.com/gallery/VbvnWGf


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, this is 6 unecessary pages. Could be said in a paragraph...

 bullyboy wrote:
let's be real here, he's referring to the WD update. It has not officially released yet.

As far as I am informed subscribers get their copies mid of the month before the official release of WD. 15th of April seems like mid of the month to me

 grouchoben wrote:
There you go: 14 copy/paste strats and basic doctrines & litanies, nothing else.

https://imgur.com/gallery/VbvnWGf


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically, this is 6 unecessary pages. Could be said in a paragraph...

Thank you, this helps to understand the differences.

I agree they could be more tailored to the unique strengths and fighting style of the chapter.

Can you help me understand the bit about SIA conflicting with Tactical Doctrine and Bolter Discipline? I don't see that here, but assume there's something in a FAQ.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Thank you, this helps to understand the differences.

I agree they could be more tailored to the unique strengths and fighting style of the chapter.

Can you help me understand the bit about SIA conflicting with Tactical Doctrine and Bolter Discipline? I don't see that here, but assume there's something in a FAQ.

The exclusion of SIA with Bolter Discipline is part of the SIA ability itself (it was added via FAQ). Deathwatch have had bolter discipline since its inception, and this update doesnt change the way it excludes SIA.

As to doctrines and SIA, they're theoretically useable concurrently, but both Kraken and Vengeance have a hard cap on their AP value (AP2 and AP3 respectively), which makes doctrines far less valuable to those specific rounds for any bolter weapon that isnt AP0.

Sterling191 wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Thank you, this helps to understand the differences.

I agree they could be more tailored to the unique strengths and fighting style of the chapter.

Can you help me understand the bit about SIA conflicting with Tactical Doctrine and Bolter Discipline? I don't see that here, but assume there's something in a FAQ.

The exclusion of SIA with Bolter Discipline is part of the SIA ability itself (it was added via FAQ). Deathwatch have had bolter discipline since its inception, and this update doesnt change the way it excludes SIA.

As to doctrines and SIA, they're theoretically useable concurrently, but both Kraken and Vengeance have a hard cap on their AP value (AP2 and AP3 respectively), which makes doctrines far less valuable to those specific rounds for any bolter weapon that isnt AP0.

Exactly this.

AP - weapons like Boltguns, Storm Bolters, Bolt pistols, and Auto bolt rifles see no impact whether in their preferred Doctrine or not. The interaction of these two rules are clear, concise, and beneficial. No conflicts. Whatever you would have chosen before is what you will choose now, just as you mentioned.

AP -1 weapons like Bolt rifles and Stalker Pattern Boltguns won't change much outside their preferred Doctrine, but interact awkwardly when inside it. The AP bonus from the Doctrine hits the limit for Kraken rounds, making its only beneficial effect +6" to range. Vengeance rounds will only provide one extra point of AP (half the benefit) and still reduce the weapon's range by 6".

AP -2 weapons, mercifully only the Stalker bolt rifle, will only ever gain 6" to range with Kraken whether under the effects of a Doctrine or not. This isn't really new to Stalker Intercessors, but it gets weird with Vengeance rounds under Devastator Doctrine. You gain no AP bonus and cost yourself 6" for no upside. Outside of the Doctrine, Vengeance will provide you with only 1 point of AP (half the effect) and reduce the weapon's range by 6".

As usual, Dragonfire are still absolutely worthless because you are going to choose wounding on 2s over +1 to hit.

SIA probably needs to be rebuilt to be a tactical choice, but it's unlikely we'll see that anytime soon.