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 Leth wrote:
It will be interesting to see what they give us to balance out that half of our chapter tactics are worthless most of the time.

Since the Grey Knights' CT is worthless even a bigger chunk of the time and GW didn't move a finger to change that for like 2 Editions now, I suspect there won't be anything for Deathwatch to have that balanced out.

 Leth wrote:
It will be interesting to see what they give us to balance out that half of our chapter tactics are worthless most of the time.

also be interesting to see what options we have to change targets of re-roll wounds.

Remember that half of the Imperial Fist CT only affects targets that you will quite literally never see on the table (just as one example). We're far from the only ones with wacky bonuses that rarely come up. Furthermore, the melee reroll ones is technically a buff, albeit a stupidly implemented one as its more than we had in 8th. Yes, it's dumb, yes Im 100% going successor if we have Mission Tactics as an available choice, but its still more than before.

As to Mission Tactics itself, I highly doubt any of our options for on-the-fly adjustment are going away. We have a WLT, a Relic and a strat designed to manipulate that system. Plus, we get Lieutenants now (or at least one flavor of them).

Niiru wrote:
Unless it turns out to be another white dwarf 'supplement' like last time).

To be fair, that update was really powerful, even though it came across as extremely lazy. Had 9th and Covid not effectively killed 8th around that time, I think we would have started having some solid showings.

 LunarSol wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Unless it turns out to be another white dwarf 'supplement' like last time).

To be fair, that update was really powerful, even though it came across as extremely lazy. Had 9th and Covid not effectively killed 8th around that time, I think we would have started having some solid showings.

Wait... Was it? Wasn't it just giving DW access to (some of) the space marine codex updates?

I mean sure those were strong updates, and brought dw closer to the main codex armies, but I don't recall anything that actually gave dw anything uniquely good for them.

Niiru wrote:

Wait... Was it? Wasn't it just giving DW access to (some of) the space marine codex updates?

I mean sure those were strong updates, and brought dw closer to the main codex armies, but I don't recall anything that actually gave dw anything uniquely good for them.

It really wasn't. The WD update allowed Deathwatch to use Doctrines, Litanies and a handful of stratagems. It did nothing to fix the underlying issues with the army.

Nothing uniquely good, but SIA on top of Doctrines is powerful. The Litanies were the most underwhelming portion by far, but our melee isn't our strength anyway.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
It will be interesting to see what they give us to balance out that half of our chapter tactics are worthless most of the time.

also be interesting to see what options we have to change targets of re-roll wounds.

Remember that half of the Imperial Fist CT only affects targets that you will quite literally never see on the table (just as one example). We're far from the only ones with wacky bonuses that rarely come up. Furthermore, the melee reroll ones is technically a buff, albeit a stupidly implemented one as its more than we had in 8th. Yes, it's dumb, yes Im 100% going successor if we have Mission Tactics as an available choice, but its still more than before.

As to Mission Tactics itself, I highly doubt any of our options for on-the-fly adjustment are going away. We have a WLT, a Relic and a strat designed to manipulate that system. Plus, we get Lieutenants now (or at least one flavor of them).

The codex preview from a few weeks back featured a generic primaris lieutenant in the DW section of the upcoming books vid, so at least two counting indominatus guy. I'm hoping restrictions on mono-pose/no swappable shoulder pad characters are relaxed a bit, would be nice to add the phobos characters in as options alongside lieutenants.

Insularum wrote:

The codex preview from a few weeks back featured a generic primaris lieutenant in the DW section of the upcoming books vid, so at least two counting indominatus guy. I'm hoping restrictions on mono-pose/no swappable shoulder pad characters are relaxed a bit, would be nice to add the phobos characters in as options alongside lieutenants.

I hope (and fully expect) that we'll get access to all the generic Marine characters, but until we get the Codex I try not to make assumptions.

 LunarSol wrote:
Nothing uniquely good, but SIA on top of Doctrines is powerful. The Litanies were the most underwhelming portion by far, but our melee isn't our strength anyway.

The interplay of SIA and doctrines isnt nearly as beneficial as it may seem due to the hard caps baked into SIA.

Sterling191 wrote:

The interplay of SIA and doctrines isnt nearly as beneficial as it may seem due to the hard caps baked into SIA.

Between Hellfire rounds being the generally best option and the efficiency of Storm Bolters and Assault Rifles, I don't think that's really a huge issue.

 LunarSol wrote:

Between Hellfire rounds being the generally best option and the efficiency of Storm Bolters and Assault Rifles, I don't think that's really a huge issue.

Then you're being shortsighted. Making the single point of failure in a Deathwatch army the interplay of one specific ammo type with AP0 weapons is a recipe for long term disaster. Especially going into a meta packing serious vehicular and FNP related threats that we already seriously struggle with.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Between Hellfire rounds being the generally best option and the efficiency of Storm Bolters and Assault Rifles, I don't think that's really a huge issue.

Then you're being shortsighted. Making the single point of failure in a Deathwatch army the interplay of one specific ammo type with AP0 weapons is a recipe for long term disaster. Especially going into a meta packing serious vehicular and FNP related threats that we already seriously struggle with.

Seeing as a lot of the infantry-based threats (which is what SIA is designed for) likely to show up in the meta are gonna be T5, being able to wound them all on 2's seems like a pretty decent buff for deathwatch. Means DW standard bolters will be forcing more saves than a lot of other armies can against them. What would other marine armies be doing that is better?

Niiru wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Between Hellfire rounds being the generally best option and the efficiency of Storm Bolters and Assault Rifles, I don't think that's really a huge issue.

Then you're being shortsighted. Making the single point of failure in a Deathwatch army the interplay of one specific ammo type with AP0 weapons is a recipe for long term disaster. Especially going into a meta packing serious vehicular and FNP related threats that we already seriously struggle with.

Seeing as a lot of the infantry-based threats (which is what SIA is designed for) likely to show up in the meta are gonna be T5, being able to wound them all on 2's seems like a pretty decent buff for deathwatch. Means DW standard bolters will be forcing more saves than a lot of other armies can against them. What would other marine armies be doing that is better?

SIA increases the chance to cause damage, but does not increase the maximum damage potential of any gun it is on (i.e. a D1 weapon is still D1) - bolter discipline on the other hand doubles the effectiveness of any rapid firing weapon not using SIA; so what other marine armies are doing that is better is firing more shots at safer ranges.

Against the dreaded T5 target hellfire will do a little better than a regular bolter discipline platform, but against anything lighter shooting more is always better.

Niiru wrote:

Seeing as a lot of the infantry-based threats (which is what SIA is designed for) likely to show up in the meta are gonna be T5, being able to wound them all on 2's seems like a pretty decent buff for deathwatch. Means DW standard bolters will be forcing more saves than a lot of other armies can against them. What would other marine armies be doing that is better?

You mean besides having a full roster with which to draw from with more than two functioning WLTs and more than two relics worth taking, actual full model support, stratagems that allow for more than simply SLIGHTLY MOAR DAKKA and an "updated" Codex that was a year and a half out of date when it was scribbled on the back of a napkin?

The GW PA did precisely one thing: make Deathwatch slightly better at mulching infantry. A job that we already excelled at.

Insularum wrote:

SIA increases the chance to cause damage, but does not increase the maximum damage potential of any gun it is on (i.e. a D1 weapon is still D1) - bolter discipline on the other hand doubles the effectiveness of any rapid firing weapon not using SIA; so what other marine armies are doing that is better is firing more shots at safer ranges.

Against the dreaded T5 target hellfire will do a little better than a regular bolter discipline platform, but against anything lighter shooting more is always better.

This is part of it, and certainly emblematic of how 8th's Marine updates completely passed Deathwatch by due to limited compatibility with our core ruleset, but the root issues run deeper. With extremely limited mobility, no effective answer for high toughness Vehicle targets and a highly fragile and expensive unit roster, there just wasnt a place for Deathwatch.

2+ reroll 1s is better than wound on 5s with double the shots IMO.

When it’s not better Deathwatch still have the option of firing as bolter drill so it’s a moot point.

The big thing I am looking forward to is seeing how the core word interacts with our killteams. The opportunity to take 5 man obsec outrider units would also be Very powerful.

 Leth wrote:
2+ reroll 1s is better than wound on 5s with double the shots IMO.

Yep, firing twice gives 100% improvement, hellfire only overtakes that when the chance of passing the wound roll is improved by more than 100%, the effective +3 to wound vs T5 and up is where that kicks in. If heavy intercessors get SIA that's going to give me a headache figuring out what rounds are best out of a S5 bolter...

 Leth wrote:
When it’s not better Deathwatch still have the option of firing as bolter drill so it’s a moot point.

They do have the option, but remember that DW units have a tendency to be more expensive per model, and that the bolter carriers are the core part of the army, not just slot tax fillers and objective holders.

 Leth wrote:
The big thing I am looking forward to is seeing how the core word interacts with our killteams. The opportunity to take 5 man obsec outrider units would also be Very powerful.

Me too, if all primaris units can be mixed into killteams there are going to some really interesting combo's.

Unless they add a "Your weapons all use X table" to the deathwatch supplement I believe we are going to pay the same amount of points for our units overall but we will see.

I expect SIA to completely go away for units unless they are kill teams. We will have access to more units, but they won't have SIA.

A bit of info so far from the codex leaks (that are backed up by images from the new codex so I'm inclined to trust them):

The following units cannot be from the Deathwatch Chapter: ASSAULT SQUAD; ATTACK BIKE SQUAD; BIKE SQUAD; DEVASTATOR SQUAD; STERNGUARD VETERAN SQUAD; TACTICAL SQUAD; SCOUT units.

Im a little bit saddened by the exclusion of attack bikes, but hoping that they're addressed in the Deathwatch specific Biker squad that we have (yes, we have it, its not going away, the exclusion for regular bikes is because the statlines are different and itd be silly if we could get two). Looks like Phobos units are a go though.

But at least we get phobos units now.

Sterling191 wrote:
A bit of info so far from the codex leaks (that are backed up by images from the new codex so I'm inclined to trust them):

The following units cannot be from the Deathwatch Chapter: ASSAULT SQUAD; ATTACK BIKE SQUAD; BIKE SQUAD; DEVASTATOR SQUAD; STERNGUARD VETERAN SQUAD; TACTICAL SQUAD; SCOUT units.

Im a little bit saddened by the exclusion of attack bikes, but hoping that they're addressed in the Deathwatch specific Biker squad that we have (yes, we have it, its not going away, the exclusion for regular bikes is because the statlines are different and itd be silly if we could get two). Looks like Phobos units are a go though.

Also denies the Assault Squad, but doesn't seem to specify the new Assault Intercessors (which I believe are a better unit anyway?) so there's that. Though I'm still wondering if the Ass-cessors will be a killteam option.

 bullyboy wrote:
But at least we get phobos units now.

That was the most important thing about the fold-in

The Rest isn't sad, since we didn't have it before but had altenratives (not so for Phobos).

Insularum wrote:
If heavy intercessors get SIA that's going to give me a headache figuring out what rounds are best out of a S5 bolter...

Heavy bolters don't get access to SIA, or at least they don't right now and I can't see them changing it. I think the best bolter profile that gets SIA is S4.

The must only make the special ammo in 9mm

I doubt it. Since we have access to doctrines, I doubt any unit will get SIA except Kill Teams, so it depends what units they decide to put into a kill team.

Basically we lost all the non-veteran versions of things as well as sternguard(which overlap with our kill teams).

Seems perfectly fine to me

Also I bet this means we will have a phobos armor based kill team!

Which is perfect because I was building lists and finding I wanted to have infiltrators before the game started.

Warlord Master of Sanctity with that warlord trait for 2+ litanies could be really powerful on a bike.

 Leth wrote:

Also I bet this means we will have a phobos armor based kill team!

Which is perfect because I was building lists and finding I wanted to have infiltrators before the game started.

As much as I would LOVE a Phobos kill team, im not certain that there's any way to read this particular tea leaf. We (almost certainly, just holding off on doing my happy dance until we have the physical page on an image) have access to individual Phobos units now, but that doesnt necessarily extend to a bespoke unit formation for our supplement.

Even without a proper Phobos kill team, DW might be able to lay claim to the dubious title of best Reivers - phobos librarian putting out shrouding/soul sight would be a solid way to pump out some hellfire shots without much in the way of reprisal (assuming obscuration doesn't change).

I'm in the wait and see camp for masters of the chapter, I'm suspicious of DW having access to all of this given the watch master/chapter master overlap.

Insularum wrote:
Even without a proper Phobos kill team, DW might be able to lay claim to the dubious title of best Reivers - phobos librarian putting out shrouding/soul sight would be a solid way to pump out some hellfire shots without much in the way of reprisal (assuming obscuration doesn't change).

It's going to come down to points. If Reivers are cheaper than Intercessors, there may very well be play for them. One of the things thats shaking out of the tournament experience is the value of cheaply deep strikeable units for specific scoring actions in the enemy DZ.

Insularum wrote:
Even without a proper Phobos kill team, DW might be able to lay claim to the dubious title of best Reivers - phobos librarian putting out shrouding/soul sight would be a solid way to pump out some hellfire shots without much in the way of reprisal (assuming obscuration doesn't change).

I'm in the wait and see camp for masters of the chapter, I'm suspicious of DW having access to all of this given the watch master/chapter master overlap.

Someone who has the book said we DONT get chapter master upgrade on Bolter, however we still got everything else. This is in line with the other exclusions we got.

So something I notice (and I know, "it'll be in the supplement etc etc" but read my reasoning first), is that in this relic terminator datasheet it actually includes the special rules (the stuff you'd get in supplements) for adding the Deathwing and Wolf Guard keywords to the units if they're in those armies.

Doesn't mention Deathwatch. And sure, you might say "deathwatch don't have special terminators"... but these terminators do get bolters, so you would think that they would get a "if in a deathwatch army, gains the special issue ammunition ability".

So sure, might be in the supplement and written in some weird way, or maybe it's being changed to a non-ability. Like becoming a stratagem, or becoming weapon-specific instead of unit...

Just found it interesting. Doesn't give us any additional information either way.

It could just as easily be GW forgetting about deathwatch again and just not writing the rule.


Edit: Occurs to me I'm very tired, and deathwatch didn't used to have access to these. So maybe they just don't get SIA. But they're not on the restricted units list, so seems deathwatch -will- get them in future... maybe.

I think the name actually gives it away....Special issue. Regular units just aren't going to get it, I'd probably put money on it. SIA will be a kill team rule only, or any other specific unit that is in the supplement (DW bikers for example). Fluff will be...a unique unit put together to fulfill a specific task and issued special ammunition for the job. And then you get the rule in the datasheet. I think that will be the negative to getting access to more units, which tbh, isn't a bad thing.