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Sadly confirmed that we cant take successor CTs, which I get, but is still something of a disappointment. Also an important note, you can take a Chapter Master with a Captain in a single detachment still. I know there was some worry about taking a WM with another Watch Captain given the "Only 1 Captain per detachment" rule, but it's an explicit allowance made by the Chapter Master ruleset. It doesnt *technically* extend to the WM yet, but if its not in the day 1 FAQ I'll be highly surprised.

That being said, I think there's already some standout options to consider from the new codex. This isnt by any means intended to be a comprehensive list, rather just a few preliminary thoughts that are already shaping list building strategies in my addled brain. Im certain we'll notice, discuss and analyze more in the coming days, and some of the below may be off base. That's part of the fun of a new codex, seeing what new tools we have to work with.

Librarians. No, I cant believe I'm actually writing that either. For players leaning towards Primaris based units, their capacity to put out a 5++ bubble is going to be a huge help in the era of Eradicators and other AP ridiculous weapons. Is it worth giving up Abhor the Witch against armies like Grey Knights, Eldar, Tyranids or Thousand Sons? I honestly dont know.

Apothecaries. They come standard with the 6+++ Father of the Future aura now, and can guarantee a resurrection every turn (its a stratagem). Probably even worth taking the Chief Apothecary upgrade now to heal two separate units *and* to make the resurrection a 0CP cost, especially if you're packing Terminators or Gravis lads.

Stalker Bolt Rifles. Yes, I know they were already a pretty good choice, but the Intercessor stratagems have been revised and we can double tap with them. That's right, we can double tap with AP3 D2 SIA. Woof.

Dreadnoughts in general. Getting Duty Eternal as an always on benefit is INSANE. Coupled with still being CORE, and the capacity to become either a Captain or a Lieutenant on command (and effect themselves!) I think they're going to be serious contenders. Honorable mention to the Redemptor plasma cannon going to flat 3D on the overcharge profile.

So the new codex review is out, and nothing much surprising for deathwatch so far.

However, from the review, it seems the supplement codices get access to the successor traits (as you'd expect)... but I haven't yet seen anything that prevents deathwatch from doing the same.

Not sure if this is just an oversight on the part of the review, or if it'll change when the supplement turns out (eg. only getting SIA if you're Deathwatch and not sucessor or something) but still, interesting.

Edit: Seems someone just ninjad me to it haha, but with the opposite result (deathwatch can't take tactics). Not sure where they got this from, as I didn't see it mentioned at all in the reviews I saw (it actually implied the opposite in the goonhammer one).

Niiru wrote:
Not sure where they got this from, as I didn't see it mentioned at all in the reviews I saw (it actually implied the opposite in the goonhammer one).

It's an explicit carve out in the Successor Chapter rules. I'll try to find the image...

And here we go, apologies for the sideways orientation but this isnt my pic and I work with what I have.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Not sure where they got this from, as I didn't see it mentioned at all in the reviews I saw (it actually implied the opposite in the goonhammer one).

It's an explicit carve out in the Successor Chapter rules. I'll try to find the image...

Please do, but tbh that's what I expected it to be in the first place, but was surprised when the goonhammer guys didn't mention it (especially when I think the guy who wrote the review has a DW army haha)


Ahh I see, it specified it has to be "first founding"

Unfortunate really, as it makes the DW trait one of the weaker ones it seems, unless you happen to be playing against xenos. Fluffy, sure, but might end up working against them.

You know, the more I sit here and look at the language, the less certain of my interpretation that I am. What we're currently missing is the supplement level rule that explicitly allows for successors of an individual chapter, and therefore that successor being a valid recipient of the special rules for the corresponding progenitor. It's a weird catch-22, but I *think* that means its a no-go for now, as there's no capacity in the existing Deathwatch ruleset to swap out <DEATHWATCH> for <CHAPTER> on a lot of units and abilities, which would result in odd interactions.

I'm unsure we're going to know the successor answer until the supplement, or if they answer the question in the day 1 FAQ.

What I find a bit awkward is that, reading the unit-exclusions for DA/SW/DW, Deathwatch can't be played with Firstborn Maries atm since this new book replaces the standalone 8th edition codex due to the fold-in and DW is not allowed to take Tacs, Devas etc. and Kill Teams aren't there yet. So several weeks "primaris only" until the supplement comes out o_O

Pyrosphere wrote:
What I find a bit awkward is that, reading the unit-exclusions for DA/SW/DW, Deathwatch can't be played with Firstborn Maries atm since this new book replaces the standalone 8th edition codex due to the fold-in and DW is not allowed to take Tacs, Devas etc. and Kill Teams aren't there yet. So several weeks "primaris only" until the supplement comes out o_O

This is absolutely not accurate.

Pyrosphere wrote:
What I find a bit awkward is that, reading the unit-exclusions for DA/SW/DW, Deathwatch can't be played with Firstborn Maries atm since this new book replaces the standalone 8th edition codex due to the fold-in and DW is not allowed to take Tacs, Devas etc. and Kill Teams aren't there yet. So several weeks "primaris only" until the supplement comes out o_O

i believe gw said in an article there will be day 1 faq's for the chapters that had stand alone books

So not DW specific, other than maybe useful for teleporting, but the review seemed to say contemptors went down to 9W.

Which sounds like a nerf, but I actually think its a buff, right?

Iron hands character contempttors get protection (which is bad for everyone but IH), but wouldnt it also mean contemptors no longer have a degradation table?

Niiru wrote:
So not DW specific, other than maybe useful for teleporting, but the review seemed to say contemptors went down to 9W.

Which sounds like a nerf, but I actually think its a buff, right?

Iron hands character contempttors get protection (which is bad for everyone but IH), but wouldnt it also mean contemptors no longer have a degradation table?

they are 9 and they dont degrade

Khornatedemon wrote:

Niiru wrote:
So not DW specific, other than maybe useful for teleporting, but the review seemed to say contemptors went down to 9W.

Which sounds like a nerf, but I actually think its a buff, right?

Iron hands character contempttors get protection (which is bad for everyone but IH), but wouldnt it also mean contemptors no longer have a degradation table?

they are 9 and they dont degrade

And the normal dreads get duty eternal baked in for free now, which is a pretty big buff. Not sure about the redemptor though. But seems like teleporting dreads (if we keep that strat) might be fun.

Niiru wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

Niiru wrote:
So not DW specific, other than maybe useful for teleporting, but the review seemed to say contemptors went down to 9W.

Which sounds like a nerf, but I actually think its a buff, right?

Iron hands character contempttors get protection (which is bad for everyone but IH), but wouldnt it also mean contemptors no longer have a degradation table?

they are 9 and they dont degrade

And the normal dreads get duty eternal baked in for free now, which is a pretty big buff. Not sure about the redemptor though. But seems like teleporting dreads (if we keep that strat) might be fun.

all the dreads have duty eternal built in. contemptor and redemptor included

Khornatedemon wrote:


all the dreads have duty eternal built in. contemptor and redemptor included

All the *Codex* dreadnoughts do. We'll see what happens to the FW ones.

Sterling191 wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:


all the dreads have duty eternal built in. contemptor and redemptor included

All the *Codex* dreadnoughts do. We'll see what happens to the FW ones.

Yeh, true, but the Codex dreads are already pretty decent. If a leviathan gets it too it might be fun, but may be more in points too, and teleporting in double codex dreads of some flavour might be decent enough.

FAQ IS A GOOOOOOO

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/rLCZMRuhVxZsxTuV.pdf


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Holy feth they broke the army with this update. And not in a good way.

Not only do mixed squads do absolutely nothing, Primaris and Storm Bolters cannot make use of SIA. Yes, you read that right.

There is a ton to discuss buried in there. I have to say the SIA changes are pretty sensible and aside from vengeance they are as we anticipated. Glad to see dragonfire is ALL cover not just light as many predicted. What do you guys think of the new vengeance rounds?

Vortenger wrote:
There is a ton to discuss buried in there. I have to say the SIA changes are pretty sensible and aside from vengeance they are as we anticipated. Glad to see dragonfire is ALL cover not just light as many predicted. What do you guys think of the new vengeance rounds?

They dont matter when the only weapons that can make use of it are an RF1 24" range S4 AP- D1 bolter, or a Heavy 1 S4 AP2 D2 rifle.

Know what's worse? Due to the way they worded the preamble of the FAQ, we currently have no relics, WLTs or stratagems either.

Yes, Sterling191 is absolutely right!

No SIA for Primaris, at all.

No more mixed armour units.

But we can take 5 eliminators. Thank you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And:

no primaris watch captain/master

And no unique stratagems or relics: for comparison, SW do get them in this update

How do you figure no mixed armor units?

I can take Storm Shields on any guy in a veteran squad, or terminators in a proteus kill team, or storm shield terminators? Seems i can pick between 1+, 2+, 3+ armor models in 1 unit if I want to.

You can take a Primaris Captain just out of the base marine codex and give him the Deathwatch keyword.

the_scotsman wrote:
How do you figure no mixed armor units?

I can take Storm Shields on any guy in a veteran squad, or terminators in a proteus kill team, or storm shield terminators? Seems i can pick between 1+, 2+, 3+ armor models in 1 unit if I want to.

You can take a Primaris Captain just out of the base marine codex and give him the Deathwatch keyword.

Yes, you are right. I meant that now primaris kill teams are based on different armour archetypes. But veterans work differently.

And yes, I know I can take the Captain from the marine book. But I don't have access to SIA anymore; I cannot take a DW relic or specific warlord trait.

TBH seems like a pretty powerful update.

Storm Bolters don't have SIA anymore, which is a shame, but SIA does seem to make boltguns and combi-weapons pretty worthwhile if you ask me. It now doesn't turn off Bolter Discipline, and does stack with Doctrines.

Some pretty significant changes (mostly good) to weapons and costs, too.

Frag cannons down to 10pts, frag mode did get much weaker but more reliable becoming 2d3 S6 AP-1 d1 12" range, solid shell mode now Assault 2 S7 AP-2 D2 24" range.

heavy thunder hammers now 15pts, compared to thunder hammers at 12pts, Sx2 AP-3 D4. Awesome. Also you can now take it on the Sergeant or Blackshield if you so desire for the extra attack.

Infernus heavy bolter predictably gains the new HB and new HF profile, and also, pleasant surprise, only 15pts compared to 10pts for either a HF or HB. You get a neat little discount for your HB half being perma -1 to hit.

Stalker Bolter now heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D2 base, with SIA so it can be damage flat 3, ignore cover, or AP-3, however you wish. Looks to be a 3-point upgrade, dunno how worthwhile that is.

Deathwatch Shotgun is unchanged, now 0 points. I think I'd go for a deathwatch combi-flamer over it for 5pts personally.

Blackshield instead of his old ability now gains A4 if he has 2 melee weapons. Thunder Hammer/chainsword anyone?

Veteran Bikers are pretty chill for 30ppm. 5 chainsword attacks apiece, and amusingly, if you take them as part of a Proteus kill team and Combat Squad them off, they count as INFANTRY for the purposes of cover for the entire game with the new Mixed Units rule.

Yes, it is good if you play veterans.

It is very bad if you play primaris DW.

I guess it is as simple as that, until the codex.

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:
Yes, it is good if you play veterans.

It is very bad if you play primaris DW.

I guess it is as simple as that, until the codex.

Nah, its garbage even if you play Vets (and I play primarily Vets). Volume of fire from mixed squads doing mixed squad shenanigans was one of the few things keeping the army going. Now there isnt even that.

Looking at these rules, it's going to be Vet Combi-weapon spam backed up by as many multi-meltas and/or Eradicators as one can squeeze into the list. Maybe a split Infiltrator/Eliminator team for forward deployment and praying it nets enough VPs to squeeze through.

At work so only glanced, but I am stoked for this new look to Deathwatch.

@Sterling191 you are probably correct.

And If I am not mistaken, neither terminators nor veteran bikers have access to SIA.

Losing all special rules for mixed squads hurts, as well as the beacon angelis

bullyboy wrote:At work so only glanced, but I am stoked for this new look to Deathwatch.

I genuinely want to hear the rationale for this.

SatanEatSeitan wrote:
And If I am not mistaken, neither terminators nor veteran bikers have access to SIA.

Neither bikers nor terminators can utilize SIA. Ever. Which is beyond pants on head fething stupid.

Terminators cannot even be equipped with combi-weapons

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:
Terminators cannot even be equipped with combi-weapons

They couldnt previously.

Do we get Bikes, Terminators, and Vanguard Veterans in Veteran Kill Teams for 20 points each? They list Black Shield's at 25, then all other models at 20 each.

Only had a first glance, but the big standout for me up front is the ability to take 5-model units of things that are limited to 3 in the regular codex. Eliminators, eradicators, outriders. Also it looks like both combat squads of the kill team get the CORE keyword.

Too bad about the nerf to hellfire SIA. Vengeance is the new hellfire.