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Ironically, DW is the only army that can field 5 outriders and the new chaplain on bike

bmsattler wrote:
Do we get Bikes, Terminators, and Vanguard Veterans in Veteran Kill Teams for 20 points each? They list Black Shield's at 25, then all other models at 20 each.

What you're pretty clearly supposed to do is reference the "source" unit for each, so a Biker would be 30, a Terminator would be 33, etc. But because of the idiotic way its presented here (I'm not even sure the wording is technically matched play compatible), there's no actual definition of the points costs for the four kill teams, or their wargear.

I don't think I can find a reason to play specifically deathwatch over other space marine chapters from a purely competitive standpoint with these rules.

The loss of their unique rules, from a tournament competitive standpoint, make them a pretty obvious pass in favor of any of the supplement-gorged powerhouses.

But if I had these kinds of rules with any of my other armies, I'd be fething ecstatic.

I can take Eradicators and shield them behind cheaper Heavy Intercessors?

I can take Outriders in 5-man, obsec squads that treat Cover as if they were Infantry?

I can take a deathwatch veteran with special issue ammo boltgun and astartes chainsword for 20pts per model with hidden A4 on the charge Heavy Thunder Hammers in the squad for 40pts a piece? AND I can mix in 1+ armor save W3 models and 2+ armor save models for 43pts and 25pts apiece?

Laughable, compared to anything any other non-marine army can have. I guess I'm also probably less salty because I didn't go through basically any effort to make sure I had a ton of SS/SB vets before.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Only had a first glance, but the big standout for me up front is the ability to take 5-model units of things that are limited to 3 in the regular codex. Eliminators, eradicators, outriders. Also it looks like both combat squads of the kill team get the CORE keyword.

Too bad about the nerf to hellfire SIA. Vengeance is the new hellfire.

Eradicators are 3-6 as standard, not limited to 3.

Outriders and Eliminators... not sure.

Sterling191 wrote:
Not only do mixed squads do absolutely nothing, Primaris and Storm Bolters cannot make use of SIA. Yes, you read that right.

I may be totally off on any of these, but mixed squads open up things like 5 man Obsec Outriders, 5 man Eliminators and deep striking Obsec Reivers. In general, it means that DW armies basically have ObSec across the board for Infantry units, if they want to build that way.

Obsec deep striking Terminators, too. Not to mention Eradicators with insane durability from ablative wounds. The combinations here are pretty cool imho - an Indomitor KT with Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators looks like an absolute blast, allowing you to throw a couple heavy weapons into a back field combat squad while the rest carry assault weapons.

It's not like they were ever going to roll us into the main codex and keep SIA the way it is. That would have been absolutely ridiculous. We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun

Wow. Gutted like a fish.

Power level might be okay, but in terms of any interesting abilities its just... gone. Everything is gone.

Lemondish wrote:
We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun

Being waddling marines that just happen to have options for ablative wounds doesnt make us unique, or fun. It just means we get to throw meatshields in front of particular high value models.

the_scotsman wrote:

Deathwatch Shotgun is unchanged, now 0 points. I think I'd go for a deathwatch combi-flamer over it for 5pts personally.

I must be missing something, because I see it changing pretty substantially:

Cryptclearer is +1 Str
Wyrmsbreath is +1" range and +1 Str
Xenopurge is +1 damage all the time, not just at half range


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun

Being waddling marines that just happen to have options for ablative wounds doesnt make us unique, or fun. It just means we get to throw meatshields in front of particular high value models.

To each their own. I know where your interest lies. I understand that what you're after is impactful, immediately damaging, insanely overpowering rules rather than flavourful, unique, tactical options that make decisions interesting even if they aren't designed to destroy your opponent in an alpha strike.

Having obsec Outriders gives them new value for me because it opens up a few more choices. Being able to craft a pseudo Heavy Tactical squad with a couple heavy weapons is pretty cool. Hell, we get to basically craft the Primaris equivalent of a Tactical squad at every level given the changes available here. That's something no other Marine force has the flexibility to do.

But in the end, I suppose if it doesn't win you the game on T1 it is 'garbage', or 'worthless', right?

Lemondish wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Not only do mixed squads do absolutely nothing, Primaris and Storm Bolters cannot make use of SIA. Yes, you read that right.

I may be totally off on any of these, but mixed squads open up things like 5 man Obsec Outriders, 5 man Eliminators and deep striking Obsec Reivers. In general, it means that DW armies basically have ObSec across the board for Infantry units, if they want to build that way.

Obsec deep striking Terminators, too. Not to mention Eradicators with insane durability from ablative wounds. The combinations here are pretty cool imho - an Indomitor KT with Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators looks like an absolute blast, allowing you to throw a couple heavy weapons into a back field combat squad while the rest carry assault weapons.

It's not like they were ever going to roll us into the main codex and keep SIA the way it is. That would have been absolutely ridiculous. We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun

Obsec deep-striking terminators = nope. The terminators in the kill teams don't have the native deepstrike like normal terminators do (it's not included in their rules). And Deathwatch no longer have any stratagems, so no teleportarium. No deepstriking dreads either.

Best you can do is have obsec terminators that you pay to put into reserves. Probably not worth it.

Niiru wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Not only do mixed squads do absolutely nothing, Primaris and Storm Bolters cannot make use of SIA. Yes, you read that right.

I may be totally off on any of these, but mixed squads open up things like 5 man Obsec Outriders, 5 man Eliminators and deep striking Obsec Reivers. In general, it means that DW armies basically have ObSec across the board for Infantry units, if they want to build that way.

Obsec deep striking Terminators, too. Not to mention Eradicators with insane durability from ablative wounds. The combinations here are pretty cool imho - an Indomitor KT with Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators looks like an absolute blast, allowing you to throw a couple heavy weapons into a back field combat squad while the rest carry assault weapons.

It's not like they were ever going to roll us into the main codex and keep SIA the way it is. That would have been absolutely ridiculous. We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun

Obsec deep-striking terminators = nope. The terminators in the kill teams don't have the native deepstrike like normal terminators do (it's not included in their rules). And Deathwatch no longer have any stratagems, so no teleportarium. No deepstriking dreads either.

Best you can do is have obsec terminators that you pay to put into reserves. Probably not worth it.

You should re-read it. They absolutely do have Teleport Strike. It's right on their data shet. Furthermore, directly from the document:

A model in a Kill Team unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet. If a model in a Kill Team unit has an ability on their original datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their Kill Team unit has that ability.
Example: Elliot creates a Proteus Kill Team unit that contains 1 Watch Sergeant, 4 Deathwatch Veterans and 5 Deathwatch Terminators. Before this unit is set up, Elliot uses the Combat Squads ability to create one unit containing the Watch Sergeant and 4 Deathwatch Veterans, and another containing 5 Deathwatch Terminators. This unit of 5 Deathwatch Terminators can be set up using the Teleport Strike ability because, after using the Combat Squads ability, all of the models in the new unit have the Teleport Strike ability.

So you have a Combat Squad Kill Team unit that consists of 5 Terminators that are Troops (obsec) and can Teleport Strike.

Keep in mind that how you craft Kill Teams is different now. You refer to the source data sheet as there is no 'Kill Team' Veteran data sheet like in the Codex.

Niiru wrote:
And Deathwatch no longer have any stratagems, so no teleportarium.

Strategems, WLT, Relics are things I suppose we have to wait for, but I don't think they're a permanent issue like a lot of what is gone here.

Niiru wrote:

Obsec deep-striking terminators = nope. The terminators in the kill teams don't have the native deepstrike like normal terminators do (it's not included in their rules).

It is now. Individual models inherit the basic abilities of their parent datasheet, and if combat squadded in a 5-pack Terminators can utilize Teleport Strike from the Proteus kill team configuration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

Keep in mind that how you craft Kill Teams is different now. You refer to the source data sheet as there is no 'Kill Team' Veteran data sheet like in the Codex.

There absolutely needs to be, because this FAQ is already demonstrating how dumbtastic it is to calculate model points costs in mixed squads when you need to refer to multiple datasheets across multiple books.

 LunarSol wrote:

Niiru wrote:
And Deathwatch no longer have any stratagems, so no teleportarium.

Strategems, WLT, Relics are things I suppose we have to wait for, but I don't think they're a permanent issue like a lot of what is gone here.

Probably true, but BA/SW etc got their strats and traits included in the FAQ. Only Deathwatch had theirs stripped. No clue on the reasoning behind this.

But I stand corrected on the terminators, does seem like Obsec terminators deepstriking is a thing. Shame they don't get SIA.


Edit: Oh, and the Blackstar got nerfed. No more rerolls of 1s.

Niiru wrote:
]Edit: Oh, and the Blackstar got nerfed. No more rerolls of 1s.

Negating cover is a pretty strong replacement at least.

I do find it hilarious that KT Cassius is back. It saves you 8 points over building it yourself and makes you immune to fleeing. I think the only reason they did it was so they didn't have to support Mr. Meltafist anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bleh. My HTH Vanguard is illegal now.

EDIT: 8 points. Free homer.

Keeping Rr1s on the Corvus was sadly unrealistic after things like Razorbacks lost it. It's still a decent unit IMO, and the cost profile is the same. Most importantly, it gets mission tactics baked in now, so its a wash on that front IMO.

Are Power Swords free on Terminators now? Some of the "baked in" costing is very weird.

 LunarSol wrote:
Are Power Swords free on Terminators now? Some of the "baked in" costing is very weird.

For termies yes, for vets no. They're 3 points apiece on the latter.

Well, RIP my Primaris Watch Company.

It wasn't even that good while it lasted.

Sterling191 wrote:
Keeping Rr1s on the Corvus was sadly unrealistic after things like Razorbacks lost it. It's still a decent unit IMO, and the cost profile is the same. Most importantly, it gets mission tactics baked in now, so its a wash on that front IMO.

What makes it get mission tactics? If it didn't before

Niiru wrote:

What makes it get mission tactics? If it didn't before

Wording of the Chapter Tactics ability. It isnt Infantry, Biker or Dreadnought so it didnt qualify before. With the new codex wording, allowing all units to gain the CTs, it does.

Could standard space marines take HTH before? I just checked and saw it on their list.

 LunarSol wrote:
Could standard space marines take HTH before? I just checked and saw it on their list.

If you mean Veterans, yes they could.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Could standard space marines take HTH before? I just checked and saw it on their list.

If you mean Veterans, yes they could.

Sorry, I mean normal Vanguard Veterans for say, Ultramarines.

 LunarSol wrote:


Sorry, I mean normal Vanguard Veterans for say, Ultramarines.

Also yes.

Other random observations:

Spectrus kill teams make you sink in the base cost for 5 Infiltrators, but both combat squads get omni-scramblers as long as each has an infiltrator. Same for ignore cover if you have an Incursor. So you could make up one unit with two squads, both getting 12” pushback, ignore cover, smokescreen, and 1-2 eliminators each (maybe with las fusils for antitank?)

Or just go cheap by adding 5 reivers to get 2 pushback units for a discount. Not sure how this would effect deployment, though.

In this version, there’s really no point in taking anything without SIA, because you don’t get any advantage over the vanilla marine version of the same thing. Even terminators, bikers, and vanguards.

But the weapon list has things that don’t appear to be assigned to any units, like Deathwatch Heavy Flamer (vets just get regular heavy flamer) and Deathwatch Twin Boltgun with SIA (bikers just get regular twin boltgun). So maybe these are errors? Maybe bikes are supposed to have SIA? Maybe terminators will get the Deathwatch Heavy Flamer option when an errata comes?

Also, am I missing it, or is there no profile for Xenophase blade? It has a point cost, but I can’t find the profile.

Stalker pattern boltgun now has a profile identical to the stalker pattern bolt rifle, with shorter range, unless you use kraken bolts. For 20 ppm (if you trade the power sword for a pistol or chainsword) this now looks to me like a good value for rear objective holders compared to an intercessor with SBR.

Mostly, though, I’m just really looking at scraping together all my stray frag cannon bitz and maxing up on those. It’s finally probably costed a little on the cheap side.

I have made so many terminators with melta fists. I am sad panda.

edit: I also noticed the weapons without wielders. I suspect our FAQ is fraught with errors, which is par for DW.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Other random observations:

Spectrus kill teams make you sink in the base cost for 5 Infiltrators, but both combat squads get omni-scramblers as long as each has an infiltrator. Same for ignore cover if you have an Incursor. So you could make up one unit with two squads, both getting 12” pushback, ignore cover, smokescreen, and 1-2 eliminators each (maybe with las fusils for antitank?)

Or just go cheap by adding 5 reivers to get 2 pushback units for a discount. Not sure how this would effect deployment, though.

In this version, there’s really no point in taking anything without SIA, because you don’t get any advantage over the vanilla marine version of the same thing. Even terminators, bikers, and vanguards.

But the weapon list has things that don’t appear to be assigned to any units, like Deathwatch Heavy Flamer (vets just get regular heavy flamer) and Deathwatch Twin Boltgun with SIA (bikers just get regular twin boltgun). So maybe these are errors? Maybe bikes are supposed to have SIA? Maybe terminators will get the Deathwatch Heavy Flamer option when an errata comes?

Also, am I missing it, or is there no profile for Xenophase blade? It has a point cost, but I can’t find the profile.

All the 'Deathwatch' special weapons are in the Cassius kill team. I assume because they wanted to say "look, this box set of models is still totally valid".

But no, you can't use them in any other kill teams.

Niiru wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Other random observations:

Spectrus kill teams make you sink in the base cost for 5 Infiltrators, but both combat squads get omni-scramblers as long as each has an infiltrator. Same for ignore cover if you have an Incursor. So you could make up one unit with two squads, both getting 12” pushback, ignore cover, smokescreen, and 1-2 eliminators each (maybe with las fusils for antitank?)

Or just go cheap by adding 5 reivers to get 2 pushback units for a discount. Not sure how this would effect deployment, though.

In this version, there’s really no point in taking anything without SIA, because you don’t get any advantage over the vanilla marine version of the same thing. Even terminators, bikers, and vanguards.

But the weapon list has things that don’t appear to be assigned to any units, like Deathwatch Heavy Flamer (vets just get regular heavy flamer) and Deathwatch Twin Boltgun with SIA (bikers just get regular twin boltgun). So maybe these are errors? Maybe bikes are supposed to have SIA? Maybe terminators will get the Deathwatch Heavy Flamer option when an errata comes?

Also, am I missing it, or is there no profile for Xenophase blade? It has a point cost, but I can’t find the profile.

All the 'Deathwatch' special weapons are in the Cassius kill team. I assume because they wanted to say "look, this box set of models is still totally valid".

But no, you can't use them in any other kill teams.

Aha, thanks. 250+ points for 9 guys who slow the game to a crawl and make you check your rules every time they want to shoot or move is not really my idea of a fun unit.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Stalker pattern boltgun now has a profile identical to the stalker pattern bolt rifle, with shorter range, unless you use kraken bolts. For 20 ppm (if you trade the power sword for a pistol or chainsword) this now looks to me like a good value for rear objective holders compared to an intercessor with SBR.

There's a subtle change in the weapon list wording which I hope to hell is an error: you cant take any other gear with a shotgun or an SBR. No shields, no melee weapons.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Mostly, though, I’m just really looking at scraping together all my stray frag cannon bitz and maxing up on those. It’s finally probably costed a little on the cheap side.

Keep in mind that the Frag lost both its auto-hit on the Frag profile, but also the close in super-shot ability on the Shell profile. Its just a worse Infernus now.

GW: You know that deathwatch exclusive model with power fist and melta gun right? You can't have that as selectable wargear anymore.
Also GW: You know that deathwing exclusive model with plasma cannon right? Fill your boots.

I'm hoping the emphasis is on "get you by to the supplement arrives", and that the total gutting of content is a reflection of how new everything will be, but until then choices are:

Proteus: OG vets, but nerfed.
Fortis: outrider combat squad
Indomitor: eradicators with grot shields
Spectrus: we got phobos, but at what cost?