Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Proteus: OG vets, but nerfed.
Fortis: outrider combat squad
Indomitor: eradicators with grot shields
Spectrus: we got phobos, but at what cost?
This is the succinct and accurate description that my rage filled brain has been trying to reach all day. Take an exalt sir.
Also I cant wait for the hilarity that ensues when somebody shows up at a tournament packing 33 Eradicators because of the stupidity of this particular FAQ.
Also I cant wait for the hilarity that ensues when somebody shows up at a tournament packing 33 Eradicators because of the stupidity of this particular FAQ.
Insularum wrote: GW: You know that deathwatch exclusive model with power fist and melta gun right? You can't have that as selectable wargear anymore.
Also GW: You know that deathwing exclusive model with plasma cannon right? Fill your boots.
I'm hoping the emphasis is on "get you by to the supplement arrives", and that the total gutting of content is a reflection of how new everything will be, but until then choices are:
Proteus: OG vets, but nerfed.
Fortis: outrider combat squad
Indomitor: eradicators with grot shields
Spectrus: we got phobos, but at what cost?
-Trying- to be positive for a moment here... but there must be something decent that could be done... right?
Proteus...I mean we can still field ObSec bikers, and our ObSec terminators have deepstrike now which is a buff from before.
Fortis... Are obsec 5-bike outrider units actually good? They're normally capped at 3.
Indom... Eradicators with grot shields, but the grots are hulking T5 3W dudes with heavy bolters. This sounds good. Isn't it good?
Spectrus... I mean this is the most 'Deathwatch special forces' kind of thing that sounds like it should be the most fitting. Can't it be made to work?
I know its stupid that we are the only army to lose all our strats and relics for no reason, and we also lost SIA, but a lot of these units wouldn't have had any SIA anyway (heavy bolters never had it, neither did any of the special weapons, and nor did hurricane bolters etc so expecting the outrider bikes to have it at all is somewhat farfetched).
But if we assume our strats get returned at some point, then is there nothing the rest of this can be made into?
Stalker pattern boltgun now has a profile identical to the stalker pattern bolt rifle, with shorter range, unless you use kraken bolts. For 20 ppm (if you trade the power sword for a pistol or chainsword) this now looks to me like a good value for rear objective holders compared to an intercessor with SBR.
There's a subtle change in the weapon list wording which I hope to hell is an error: you cant take any other gear with a shotgun or an SBR. No shields, no melee weapons.
Good point, but not a problem for me because I was never a fan of widespread storm shields on vets anyway. Now with 2 wounds each, I think a guy standing in cover in the back can get by without it. Use the points saved off storm shields to buy another guy.
Also, the guy with the SBG actually costs 20 plus the cost of the gun, which is not zero. My mistake.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
Fortis... Are obsec 5-bike outrider units actually good? They're normally capped at 3.
They're decent at harassment and disruption, but we already had better options for that from the Proteus kill team configuration. And losing the Intergressor / InterCeptor configuration is far too steep a price to pay.
Indom... Eradicators with grot shields, but the grots are hulking T5 3W dudes with heavy bolters. This sounds good. Isn't it good?
Eradicators are abjectly, fundamentally broken. Our capacity to break them further isnt a good thing, nor is having to rely on them an indication of functional design for the rest of our army.
Spectrus... I mean this is the most 'Deathwatch special forces' kind of thing that sounds like it should be the most fitting. Can't it be made to work?
There is some play there, and honestly its the single bright spot in this clusterfeth of dipshittery from GW.
I know its stupid that we are the only army to lose all our strats and relics for no reason, and we also lost SIA, but a lot of these units wouldn't have had any SIA anyway (heavy bolters never had it, neither did any of the special weapons, and nor did hurricane bolters etc so expecting the outrider bikes to have it at all is somewhat farfetched).
Outriders dont have hurricane bolters. They have twin bolt rifles, the primaris analog to a weapon that had SIA up until about five minutes ago.
But if we assume our strats get returned at some point, then is there nothing the rest of this can be made into?
Assuming any of our strats, WLTs or Relics are returning in anything resembling their current form is a massive leap of faith to be made on behalf of the rules team that deliberately fethed us all over. And im not for a second taking that on faith.
Insularum wrote: GW: You know that deathwatch exclusive model with power fist and melta gun right? You can't have that as selectable wargear anymore.
Also GW: You know that deathwing exclusive model with plasma cannon right? Fill your boots.
I'm hoping the emphasis is on "get you by to the supplement arrives", and that the total gutting of content is a reflection of how new everything will be, but until then choices are:
Proteus: OG vets, but nerfed.
Fortis: outrider combat squad
Indomitor: eradicators with grot shields
Spectrus: we got phobos, but at what cost?
-Trying- to be positive for a moment here... but there must be something decent that could be done... right?
Proteus...I mean we can still field ObSec bikers, and our ObSec terminators have deepstrike now which is a buff from before.
Fortis... Are obsec 5-bike outrider units actually good? They're normally capped at 3.
Indom... Eradicators with grot shields, but the grots are hulking T5 3W dudes with heavy bolters. This sounds good. Isn't it good?
Spectrus... I mean this is the most 'Deathwatch special forces' kind of thing that sounds like it should be the most fitting. Can't it be made to work?
I know its stupid that we are the only army to lose all our strats and relics for no reason, and we also lost SIA, but a lot of these units wouldn't have had any SIA anyway (heavy bolters never had it, neither did any of the special weapons, and nor did hurricane bolters etc so expecting the outrider bikes to have it at all is somewhat farfetched).
But if we assume our strats get returned at some point, then is there nothing the rest of this can be made into?
Disclaimer - I'm not salty about the FAQ, the supplement is when it's real. I'm still hopeful that the DW supplement will be at least to the same standard as the others we have seen (the slimmest of chance of a proper primaris upgrade frame with a unique wargear option or two like every other chapter has had so far).
To me this is just PA all over again, perfectly fine from a "power level on the tabletop" point of view (it's based on marines, who are currently really very good), the problem is that it is devoid of anything more interesting than breaking unit sizes/rule of 3 restrictions - and it's never nice when more is lost than gained.
This was regarding the Spectrus team, and now I'm wondering just what is doable here?
I did think it'd be cool to use Eliminators, but as far as I can see all their special rules require a sergeant (which you don't get)
Mostly its about table control. Forward deploying with two units of five (6 Infiltrators, 4 Eliminators combat squadded down to 3 and 2 models respectively) that not only prevents deep striking within 12, but also is terrifying to any character within LoS is not to be underestimated. The omni-scrambler ability is written such that every model in the unit gets it. Combine with a Lord of Deceit Phobos character and you have nasty options for a turn 1 decapitation strike at effectively zero risk to your units if you lose the roll off (since you can simply redeploy them to safety).
You dont bring Eliminators for added abilities. You bring them to mulch force multipliers through Look Out Sir.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/05 21:40:06
Wait, were people expecting supplement level content in a FAQ?
This is fantastic for seeing how the army is gonnna be built and while we are short quite a few special rules(sadly) it gives me a solid idea as of how I can build my lists. Lots of obsec bikers in my future.
Is it broken powerful at first glance? Nope, but so much more seems use-able that I am very optimistic for the full supplement. Hell I briefly was looking at shotguns!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 22:08:12
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Leth wrote: Wait, were people expecting supplement level content in a FAQ?
This is fantastic for seeing how the army is gonnna be built and while we are short quite a few special rules(sadly) it gives me a solid idea as of how I can build my lists. Lots of obsec bikers in my future.
Check the Dark Angels and Blood Angels FAQs.
They got partial stratagem and trait support, and entire datasheets for all the units that will be in their supplements.
Which means that SIA, as it is in this FAQ, is likely to be close to the final version that GW intend to release. Which is extremely bad.
Leth wrote: Wait, were people expecting supplement level content in a FAQ?
I was expecting not to have everything that made the army flavorful ripped out and burned in front of my eyes, while simultaneously reverting us to a pre-Codex state.
Put another way, this update wasn't supposed to make the army even worse than it was. It utterly failed at that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 21:51:27
I was expecting not to have everything that made the army flavorful ripped out and burned in front of my eyes, while simultaneously reverting us to a pre-Codex state.
I am certainly sad that our disagreement on SIA was resolved by cleaving the baby in two.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 21:52:15
I am certainly sad that our disagreement on SIA was resolved by cleaving the baby in two.
I legitimately do not understand what the rules team is thinking when this is the magnitude of nerf that gets dropped on the objectively worst Marine faction, while simultaneously handing out permanent Transhuman Physiology or invulnerable saves to an army like Dark Angels.
Are you looking at the same SIA? At least now they actually fill useful roles in different situations rather than hellfire all day everyday.
Do I wish there was more? Sure but I am not really worried right now. Only the units that got new data sheets got SIA so to argue that it is the final version is pretty unrealistic. We see this with the bikers, their twin bolt gun got SIA but storm bolters didn’t? What’s the difference? New datasheet.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/05 22:14:37
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Leth wrote: Are you looking at the same SIA? At least now they actually fill useful roles in different situations rather than hellfire all day everyday.
Which is entirely meaningless when only a single datasheet (excluding Kill Team Cassius) can actually make use of said SIA.
Do I wish there was more? Sure but I am not really worried right now. Only the units that got new data sheets got SIA so to argue that it is the final version is pretty unrealistic. We see this with the bikers, their twin bolt gun got SIA but storm bolters didn’t? What’s the difference? New datasheet.
No, Bikers did not get SIA. They cannot take the Deathwatch Twin Boltgun (only the White Scar lad from KT:C can), despite getting a brand spanking new datasheet. Likewise, Terminators have a shiny new datasheet. With no SIA.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/05 22:16:51
Leth wrote: Are you looking at the same SIA? At least now they actually fill useful roles in different situations rather than hellfire all day everyday.
Do I wish there was more? Sure but I am not really worried right now. Only the units that got new data sheets got SIA so to argue that it is the final version is pretty unrealistic. We see this with the bikers, their twin bolt gun got SIA but storm bolters didn’t? What’s the difference? New datasheet.
Wrong.
Bikers don't get SIA. Neither do Terminators.
Even the new datasheet bikers and terminators don't get SIA.
The only bike in the entire army that gets SIA, is the special snowflake bike in killteam cassius. They are also the only unit that gets any kind of SIA, outside of basic bolters in the vets squad.
GW purposely released a new bikers datasheet, and a new terminator datasheet, and purposely DID NOT give them any access to SIA.
Well that’s dumb as gak, kinda annoying. Didn’t even give it to bolt pistols.
O well, army construction still looks fun. Will have to see how the points pan out for what I have mind. Definitely a combat squad of Phobos for the double infiltration disruption.
Sad to see BGV not in the list, but I could see that gettin broken pretty quick. Veterans with default bolt gun power sword is interesting.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/10/05 22:38:01
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Leth wrote: Well that’s dumb as gak, kinda annoying. Didn’t even give it to bolt pistols.
O well, army construction still looks fun. Will have to see how the points pan out for what I have mind. Definitely a combat squad of Phobos for the double infiltration disruption.
Sad to see BGV not in the list, but I could see that gettin broken pretty quick. Veterans with default bolt gun power sword is interesting.
i wondered if they would do default power swords because that’s what’s in the kit. But you still have to pay for the power sword, which I guess is fair. They seem better and cheaper than the previous power sword at least.
"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz
i wondered if they would do default power swords because that’s what’s in the kit. But you still have to pay for the power sword, which I guess is fair. They seem better and cheaper than the previous power sword at least.
Id personally argue that if youre intent on keeping the power weapon, but arent upgrading to a Hammer or Fist, the Lightning Claw is the way to go. The extra attack and rerolling wounds makes it a lot scarier than its on paper profile would suggest.
We get access to the regular marine captains so whatever wargear they got? We got, just can’t update to chapter master.
I think 25 points for stormshield vets is pretty solid durability wise.
Also like that the squad leader can take the heavy thunder hammer now. Twin lightning claw black shields sound fun as well.
I think overall in regards to unit construction? This is a big win and definitely in the direction I wanted to see the army go. I think in regards to our special rules it sucks and I hope that is rectified when we get our full rules in some way.
Having almost everything being obsec will be helpful for claiming objectives, we can kit out our units for any role.
Chief apoth is mandatory as is tradition for all armies lol.
So far the core of my army is looking like 3x ATV 5x outrider 5x intercessors chief apoth, chief chaplain on bike, twox infiltrator and 1-2 vet squads. Have to see how the points add up. Would be better as a different chapter but I am Deathwatch ride or die so it doesn’t really matter what everyone else gets.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/06 00:13:47
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
For what it's worth - rough tactics for new SIA, condensed into "easy" to remember target profiles:
Boltgun
Vengeance is the go to for any multi-wound targets
Kraken for T3 with 4+ save or better
Hellfire for T3 with 5+ save or worse
Dragonfire for any 1W targets in cover (if it would be -1 to hit and cover gives some kind of save)
Stalker
Hellfire for anything less than 3W or exactly 4W
Vengeance for exactly 3W or above 4W
Dragonfire for up to 2W targets in cover (if it would be -1 to hit and cover gives some kind of save)
The newly nerfed SIA abilities strike me as interesting in one way - They are all similar in 'strength' to superdoctrines that other chapters have.
Makes me wonder if perhaps this half-assed bandaid is because the plan is for SIA as a weapon ability to disappear for good, and instead SIA will be a doctrine. eg. "Units effected by this doctrine can choose to fire their weapons using one of the following ammunition types - ... etc"
I really wouldnt be surprised if non-veteran SIA becomes their tactical superdoctrine, or makes an appearance as a strat and/or a special-issue-relic (give characters their special ammo).
The old SIA was WAY too good to stick around for every unit. The only reason Deathwatch were subtier is because they were missing a huge chunk of unit options (like anti-tank solutions). You guys are high if you thought we were going to keep super-bolter-infantry AND get all the fancy new toys without any sort of tuning.
Special ammo is just for Veteran's fancy pants boltguns, which sure... that's a fine solution. Personally, the combined squads was more interesting anyway, and I'm sure there's still some cool tricks to pull out of there, even without mixing armour types.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/06 03:53:05
I'm honestly not fussed about SIA at all. With Doctrines being a thing, the weapons are still good. You still take SB for horde clearing, especially in Tactical doctrine. SIA is for kill teams with bolters and is now a choice rather than SB for days. I'm liking this very much, and the lack of strats etc also makes me feel that DW might be first up.
bullyboy wrote: I'm honestly not fussed about SIA at all. With Doctrines being a thing, the weapons are still good. You still take SB for horde clearing, especially in Tactical doctrine. SIA is for kill teams with bolters and is now a choice rather than SB for days. I'm liking this very much, and the lack of strats etc also makes me feel that DW might be first up.
I'm not sure, but aren't storm bolters better vs all targets than bolters with SIA? Double shots is generally better than +1AP, or +1damage. The only one that may require maths is whether double shots is better than +1 to wound, but I think it is.
It would be nice to think that DW got the least FAQ, because they were going to be the first supplement released... but they've already said all the supplements will be out in October (or was it november? I forget), so the most even the last codex will have to wait is an additional 2-3 weeks. That's if they're not all released at the same time.
Seems unlikely this small difference would affect what GW would do with the FAQs. Especially when there are armies that didn't even get an FAQ update at all (Tyranids) and who wont be getting their codex release for 12-24 months.
In any case, I wouldn't have minded losing SIA as much, if they had made Frag Cannons great. Or given that Deathwatch Heavy Flamer to more units, cos that thing looks cool. Shame it's only on a terrible unit that noone will take.
Edit:
On another thing though... Deathwatch Shotgun.
This thing used to be terrible. There was never a reason to take it over a storm bolter with SIA. But now... I wonder if it might have a purpose.
Vs a normal bolter with SIA, the Cryptclearer is basically the same as having +1 to wound vs T4 and T5 targets (very common). And it's 2 shots to 18", so it's better than the bolter if you're putting it on a mobile unit that won't get bolter discipline.
Xenopurge effectively is a bolter at 12", that has BOTH the -1AP the +1 Damage ammunitions turned on.
And you have a flamer. I guess its... ok for overwatch maybe. 8" limit for some reason. Meh.
Same cost as a boltgun. It's worse for units that will benefit from discipline (stationary ones), but an assault unit... maybe?
(I think shotguns are cool, and there's very few armies that really are able to make use of them properly, if I can fit a shotgun squad into DW out of this fiasco I might actually be pleased haha).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/06 05:26:52
Not sure if SB is worth the extra points is the question, especially when this is an edition about clear/take and hold.
Another thought that comes to mind about shotguns is that from turn 3 onwards, you are going to be in assault doctrine and that means for 1/2 the game they are getting-1 AP.
Honestly, with all of the new options and rules available to us, it. Drastically changes how we approach the game.
Personally here is the foundation of the list I am building. That I quite like so far.
Watchmaster, chief apoth, chief chaplain on bike.
5xbikes, 5x stormshield vets
5x intercessors, 5x outriders
2x5 infiltrators
3x atv with MM Drop pod
Around 450 points left to fill/dreadnaughts
Lots of fast obsec to get on objectives while also having a decent number of rapid fire shots. Still lots of fine tuning to go and the math might say that storm bolters are still the way to go. But for now I am cautiously optomistic that we will do okay against most opponents.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
