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Niiru wrote:

I'm not sure, but aren't storm bolters better vs all targets than bolters with SIA?

Doubling the rate of fire is indeed superior to the benefits that SIA provide except for very specific confluences of defensive statlines.

Niiru wrote:

In any case, I wouldn't have minded losing SIA as much, if they had made Frag Cannons great.

SIA is a defining feature of the Deathwatch. Losing it on any non-Veteran unit is fething idiotic.

Niiru wrote:

On another thing though... Deathwatch Shotgun.

This thing used to be terrible. There was never a reason to take it over a storm bolter with SIA. But now... I wonder if it might have a purpose.

There isnt, nor are you going to see Stalker Boltguns either, for one very specific reason: you cannot take any other equipment with them. Losing access to shields or melee weapons is far to steep an opportunity cost to pay for what those weapons do, even with the new SIA.

I disagree completely. SIA is special issue....its not intended for storm bolter, twin boltgun massed fire. Its precise, target specific ammo....it absolutely feels right at this point. It should never have been given out Willy nilly, and with the advent of a whole new codex world of options for us, it belongs in specific weapons in kill teams.

As for the stalker, keep it backfield alongside a couple missile launchers and heavy bolters as a pseudo devastator squad. Thats what I did anyway. I will have to remove the stormshields on a couple dudes, but that may have to happen to a lot of guys now.

 bullyboy wrote:
I disagree completely. SIA is special issue....its not intended for storm bolter, twin boltgun massed fire. Its precise, target specific ammo....it absolutely feels right at this point. It should never have been given out Willy nilly, and with the advent of a whole new codex world of options for us, it belongs in specific weapons in kill teams.

Its so targeted that one datasheet in the entire army can use it. That's just soooo amazing and fluffy right there. Sod off with that stupidity.

A feature that is ridiculously niche to the point that it cannot be effectively used isnt a feature.

 bullyboy wrote:

As for the stalker, keep it backfield alongside a couple missile launchers and heavy bolters as a pseudo devastator squad. Thats what I did anyway. I will have to remove the stormshields on a couple dudes, but that may have to happen to a lot of guys now.

Enjoy your lovely pseudo devastator squad getting tagged and unable to do a damn thing about it now that not only can they not get a sturdy defensive profile, they cant even carry a damn chainsword to defend themselves. Furthermore, it deliberately runs against what makes the Shotgun good: the capacity to get up in things faces. S4 ap0 punches dont scare anything short of targets that will be dead by the time the Vets make it into combat T2 or T3.

while I dont like to be negative this feels like they wanted DW dumbed down. are chapter tactics gone? I havent played DW in a long time but I loved that there were strats to change from something like Malleus to Hereticus. It made DW really flexible. I also heard that there was a DW codex due early unless this is it??

 Elfric wrote:
while I dont like to be negative this feels like they wanted DW dumbed down. are chapter tactics gone? I havent played DW in a long time but I loved that there were strats to change from something like Malleus to Hereticus. It made DW really flexible. I also heard that there was a DW codex due early unless this is it??

Deathwatch currently have no stratagems, relics or WLTs beyond what is available from the primary Astartes codex. The army is in the first batch of announced supplements / codices but we have no information beyond that yet.

Sterling191 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I disagree completely. SIA is special issue....its not intended for storm bolter, twin boltgun massed fire. Its precise, target specific ammo....it absolutely feels right at this point. It should never have been given out Willy nilly, and with the advent of a whole new codex world of options for us, it belongs in specific weapons in kill teams.

Its so targeted that one datasheet in the entire army can use it. That's just soooo amazing and fluffy right there. Sod off with that stupidity.

A feature that is ridiculously niche to the point that it cannot be effectively used isnt a feature.

 bullyboy wrote:

As for the stalker, keep it backfield alongside a couple missile launchers and heavy bolters as a pseudo devastator squad. Thats what I did anyway. I will have to remove the stormshields on a couple dudes, but that may have to happen to a lot of guys now.

Enjoy your lovely pseudo devastator squad getting tagged and unable to do a damn thing about it now that not only can they not get a sturdy defensive profile, they cant even carry a damn chainsword to defend themselves.

No offense, but you're acting like a complete baby. An entire codex of options opened up to us and you expect to get nothing but buffs on top if that. It was inevitable that we would lose some things to compensate for the increased access. You were just being delusional.

 bullyboy wrote:

No offense, but you're acting like a complete baby. An entire codex of options opened up to us and you expect to get nothing but buffs on top if that. It was inevitable that we would lose some things to compensate for the increased access. You were just being delusional.

Coming from a person who seems to think that losing the functional identity of an army is "opening up an entire codex of options", that's hilarious. But hey, by all means, please continue to sing the praises of a heavy handed nerf to what was already the worst of the marine codexes because you can now run Centurions.

I didnt expect buffs. What I expected was to not have the core identity of the army ripped away in a post it note. And no, the capacity to evade model count limits and put meat shields in front of Eradicators isnt a suitable replacement.

Deathwatch did two things: SIA allowing basic infantry formations to punch well above their weight, and Mixed Squads that allowed for unique abilities that the basic Marine units couldnt. Both have been drastically reduced or outright eliminated.

Sterling191 wrote:
What I expected was to not have the core identity of the army ripped away in a post it note.

In fairness, I think our deconstruction document is larger than our Psychic Awakening

Well, what you and GW think DW is known for tends to be different. As for identity, I don't knkw how going from 2 kill teams to 4 types constitutes losing their identity. Again, its just your delusion. Sorry you can't spam SB/SS dudes wounding on 2s anymore.

 bullyboy wrote:
As for identity, I don't knkw how going from 2 kill teams to 4 types constitutes losing their identity.

Congratulations, you've once again made your own point look idiotic. Putting meat shields in front of Eradicators, or allowing a player to put 30 Outriders on the table, isnt faction identity. Kill Teams are mixed units that do more than their constituent components would otherwise allow. What we've got so far in the Fortis, Indomitus and Spectrus formations are not Kill Teams. Spectrus is close, but its not there.

we really do not need the digs and insults.

ta.

It is a kill team unless you choose not to make it so by combat squadding. Thats a choice, but the tourney players will do it, others may not. They are still 4 separate mixed units each having 4 different datasheets. With the new options, you don't need to spam SIA troops to have a chance, but that entry still remains for that specific kill team.
It may not be what you wanted for Deathwatch, but you don't speak for the masses.

 bullyboy wrote:

It may not be what you wanted for Deathwatch, but you don't speak for the masses.

Nowhere did I say that I did. Stop putting words in my mouth.

 bullyboy wrote:
It is a kill team unless you choose not to make it so by combat squadding.

Having an Eradicator stand next to an Agressor doesnt make it a Kill Team.

 bullyboy wrote:
They are still 4 separate mixed units each having 4 different datasheets.

For the I don't know how manyeth time: The capacity to put meat shields in front of an Eradicator or bypass model number limits does not make a unit a Kill Team. Having functionality above and beyond what the basic constituent components allowed for is what makes a Kill Team a Kill Team. We dont have the latter anymore outside the Proteus and Spectrus formations, and those are both vastly diminished from the 8th edition formations that were flavorful, distinct units that could do all sorts of things based on how you constructed them.

 bullyboy wrote:
With the new options, you don't need to spam SIA troops to have a chance, but that entry still remains for that specific kill team.

You're equating a player choice with a design lockout. Its not my choice whether or not to go long on SIA, when I quite literally do not have the option to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:

In fairness, I think our deconstruction document is larger than our Psychic Awakening

You'll note that I refer to the PA as a napkin, while this monstrosity is a post-it.

We have yet to see strats for the DW. We have no idea if contain a vanvet or inceptor will allow fall back and shoot using a strat. Same with bikes fall back and charge. We don't know about teleportation if still a thing.

As it stands, you have 4 kill teams that do different things. I don't see that as a bad thing at all, and it makes sense to put all gravis together. The Fortis might be the weakest one but I'll probably find a way to make one work. I'm more heavily invested in vets anyway. I will absolutely be making a phobos kill team though.

 bullyboy wrote:
We have yet to see strats for the DW. We have no idea if contain a vanvet or inceptor will allow fall back and shoot using a strat. Same with bikes fall back and charge.

Im not about to speculate on what may or may not happen in the supplement. I deal with the rules that are in front of me. And as they stand, they're pathetic.

 bullyboy wrote:
We don't know about teleportation if still a thing.

Teleport Homers are gonna be big for Proteus teams. The capacity to redeploy mid-game (or tee up a T2 drop) is very powerful.

 bullyboy wrote:

As it stands, you have 4 kill teams that do different things.

No, you dont. You have two almost Kill Teams, a delivery mechanism for massed Outriders, and a delivery mechanism for massed Eradicators.

 bullyboy wrote:
I will absolutely be making a phobos kill team though.

A Spectrus team with Eliminators and a Phobos Lord of Deceit are auto-takes as far as im concerned. Probably a 6/4 split for combat squadding to allow more board control, but I can definitely see the utility in a 5/5 configuration for maximum killiness and character obliteration. Deploy aggressively (ideally as your last drop) for maximum snipage, and pull them back to safety with the redeploy if you lose first turn.

You have 4 kill teams, you just assume there is only 2 wats people will use the others.

 bullyboy wrote:
You have 4 kill teams, you just assume there is only 2 wats people will use the others.

For the second time now on this page, stop putting words in my mouth. I have made no statement as to whether or not the Fortis or Indomitor teams will or will not be used (in fact I expect them to see significant play precisely because they cheese model limitations on high value units that are otherwise limited by FO slot or unit model number restrictions).

That does not for a moment make them Kill Teams, nor does it make them fun to play (with or against) or an indicator of good design. It makes them delivery vehicles for Eradicators and Outriders.

You literally said it in the post above mine. Nobody is putting words in your mouth.

Edit: anyway, I'm done with the ongoing whinefest. This is a tactics page and I'll focus on what I can do with the new rules rather than complain about what they can't do.

 bullyboy wrote:
You literally said it in the post above mine. Nobody is putting words in your mouth.

bs. This is what I wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

No, you dont. You have two almost Kill Teams, a delivery mechanism for massed Outriders, and a delivery mechanism for massed Eradicators.

Stop. Lying. There is no statement as to the prevalence of either the Indomitor or Fortis formations.

Assuming for a minute that the new content is mostly finished, and that what's missing may or may not be covered in the supplement - how about this for a spectrus structure:

Combat squad 1:
Infiltrator sergeant
Infiltrator *3
Reiver or Incursor with haywire mine

Combat squad 2:
Infiltrator with comms array
Eliminator *4

Comms with the snipers, a mine or a terror troops candidate in the other combat squad. Would require a pretty heavy investment in phobos as you would need both the captain and lieutenant along for the ride. Could forward deploy the bolter squads with the cap, lt in the back perhaps with a watch master and regular vets.

I will say, with the different teams nicely named, I do have some hope our strats will target them specifically. There's some interesting design space there, but I'm sad we don't have the Mk X + Gravis mix anymore. I quite liked that look.

I actually quite like the new kill teams from an organization stand point, just at the moment there's little advantage to doing so outside exploiting Combat Squads. As frustrated as I am, and as little faith as I have the supplement will be much of an improvement, I'll at least see what's ahead. Not like I can really get out and play anyway.

Insularum wrote:
Assuming for a minute that the new content is mostly finished, and that what's missing may or may not be covered in the supplement - how about this for a spectrus structure:

Combat squad 1:
Infiltrator sergeant
Infiltrator *3
Reiver or Incursor with haywire mine

Combat squad 2:
Infiltrator with comms array
Eliminator *4

Comms with the snipers, a mine or a terror troops candidate in the other combat squad. Would require a pretty heavy investment in phobos as you would need both the captain and lieutenant along for the ride. Could forward deploy the bolter squads with the cap, lt in the back perhaps with a watch master and regular vets.

I dont know that the Comms Array is necessary. Assuming* there is some means to manipulate Mission Tactics, you'll have the Lieutenant aura baked in already, and you're almost certainly already bringing a Phobos Captain, which with careful positioning can support both squads from relative safety. Likewise, im not sure the mine is worth the points anymore since its basically just an overwatch bomb in the new codex.

The Reiver is an intriguing disruption play. As-written I believe the new strat for them will affect the entire combat squad due to the way the keywording is handled. Having the ace of turning off ObSec and making what would otherwise be a nulled or enemy controlled objective can swing VP totals massively when deployed carefully.

My other concern is that the Eliminator pod will likely draw a significant amount of fire, and with only one non-expendible Infiltrator the instant you start taking casualties you lose significant efficacy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
I will say, with the different teams nicely named, I do have some hope our strats will target them specifically. There's some interesting design space there, but I'm sad we don't have the Mk X + Gravis mix anymore. I quite liked that look.

Indeed, losing the Intergressor/Interceptor formations hurts.

 LunarSol wrote:

I actually quite like the new kill teams from an organization stand point, just at the moment there's little advantage to doing so outside exploiting Combat Squads. As frustrated as I am, and as little faith as I have the supplement will be much of an improvement, I'll at least see what's ahead. Not like I can really get out and play anyway.

Likewise, and its part of what irks me so much. The potential is there, its just incredibly poorly implemented.

My god, did IQ's drop suddenly whilst I was away!

This is a hold over PDF document that will be used for about a month so that the army is actually playable until the supplement comes out. This has been made very clear.

Please stop shouting and whinging and perhaps behave like adults and just wait the very short time to see what the actual rules will be. Going by other supplements we will be getting loads of relics, warlord traits, strat and a whole lot else besides.
Do not expect GW to give these out in a free PDF.

Keep calm, think of your blood pressure

 WisdomLS wrote:

This is a hold over PDF document that will be used for about a month so that the army is actually playable until the supplement comes out. This has been made very clear.

"We're gonna put out terrible rules, but dont worry the real rules are gonna be great!" isnt a particularly compelling argument.

 WisdomLS wrote:

Please stop shouting and whinging and perhaps behave like adults and just wait the very short time to see what the actual rules will be.

Oh this old chestnut. The same thing that was said the entirety of the previous edition. Of course it'll magically make things better and true now.

 WisdomLS wrote:
Going by other supplements we will be getting loads of relics, warlord traits, strat and a whole lot else besides.
Do not expect GW to give these out in a free PDF.

I never expected a supplement in a PDF. I expected my Deathwatch army to be, at the least, no less borked than it was previously. That mark has been entirely missed.

I don't always agree with Sterling191, but when I do, it's mostly because he hits the nail.

Nobod is whining about the SB/SS-Combo since this has nothing to do with Identity. But taking away all the special rules that mixed Units had, does.
As some people already said before: Now the Kill Teams aren't more than a platform to break "AOP"-Style rules via combat squadding... What does that leave us with? Mono-units that could have been deployed without the mixed unit special rule. Very unique! Not.

Although I see the positive side of having many more options, I also tend to think that this "index" is yet another instance of a half-baked attempt.

What I dislike in the underlying philosophy according to which all (or most) new "good" options for DW, its selling points, are all about new marine units: "Eradicators", "Phobos" (new for us), "Outriders".

Basically, unless you stick to veterans and you were already heavily invested in them, you need to buy an entirely new army!

Rather than being an incremental attempt to build on what was the previous "core" of DW, this is a more or less a blatant attempt to shift such a "core" toward new shiny (and very pricy) units.

Aside from the problematic game dynamics highlighted above - i.e. we are good as we circumnavigate others' restrictions to field strong units –, this feels like yet another attempt to "reinvent" what the core of DW should be, for no real reason.

Perhaps this will turn out to be good for DW. Certainly, it makes things incredibly difficult from the standpoint of someone willing to spend time and effort to build a DW WH40K army over time

Let's just keep the discussion polite, please chaps.

Insularum wrote:
Assuming for a minute that the new content is mostly finished, and that what's missing may or may not be covered in the supplement - how about this for a spectrus structure:

Combat squad 1:
Infiltrator sergeant
Infiltrator *3
Reiver or Incursor with haywire mine

Combat squad 2:
Infiltrator with comms array
Eliminator *4

Comms with the snipers, a mine or a terror troops candidate in the other combat squad. Would require a pretty heavy investment in phobos as you would need both the captain and lieutenant along for the ride. Could forward deploy the bolter squads with the cap, lt in the back perhaps with a watch master and regular vets.

In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.

Also I wanted to say thanks for making an actual tactics post on the tactics forum

Sometimes I kind of wish there were a separate forum for complaints about what Deathwatch doesn't have, which isn't really on the topic of tactics.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.

Unfortunately while the Infiltrator aura may extend to the entire unit, the Incursor ability does not. Eliminators derive no benefit from Multi-Spectrum Arrays.

Similarly, because of specific wording in the keywording sections of the FAQ, Spectrus kill teams can never benefit from the Reiver strat (they lack the Reiver keyword), and likewise Proteus kill teams can never benefit from Teleport Homers (because they can only gain the Terminator keyword if theyre comprised exclusively of Terminators).

Sterling191 wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.

Unfortunately while the Infiltrator aura may extend to the entire unit, the Incursor ability does not. Eliminators derive no benefit from Multi-Spectrum Arrays.

Similarly, because of specific wording in the keywording sections of the FAQ, Spectrus kill teams can never benefit from the Reiver strat (they lack the Reiver keyword), and likewise Proteus kill teams can never benefit from Teleport Homers (because they can only gain the Terminator keyword if theyre comprised exclusively of Terminators).

Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.