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 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.

Dont beat yourself up. A lot of what seem like obvious combinations dont work because of the (IMO sloppily and unnecessarily) narrow ways in which the kill team rules are laid out. Another example, Proteus kill teams can never take a Blackshield.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.

Dont beat yourself up. A lot of what seem like obvious combinations dont work because of the (IMO sloppily and unnecessarily) narrow ways in which the kill team rules are laid out. Another example, Proteus kill teams can never take a Blackshield.

Yeah, I hadn't seen that either about the Blackshields. I was all ready to desprue lightning claw arms for them. I guess I'd better just work on the magnetizing project for the Corvuses and wait for the actual supplement to come out.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.

Dont beat yourself up. A lot of what seem like obvious combinations dont work because of the (IMO sloppily and unnecessarily) narrow ways in which the kill team rules are laid out. Another example, Proteus kill teams can never take a Blackshield.

Lol seriously? Have they worded it in such a way that it can't be taken?

Oh yeh... it seems that they have seperated the 'Proteus' kill team and the 'Vanguard Veterans' as two different units. I wonder why. They don't even mention the blackshield in the example so it may even be intentional. Though I'm not sure why you'd need the ability to take veterans seperately, when you have/had the ability to take a veterans-only proteus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.

Dont beat yourself up. A lot of what seem like obvious combinations dont work because of the (IMO sloppily and unnecessarily) narrow ways in which the kill team rules are laid out. Another example, Proteus kill teams can never take a Blackshield.

Yeah, I hadn't seen that either about the Blackshields. I was all ready to desprue lightning claw arms for them. I guess I'd better just work on the magnetizing project for the Corvuses and wait for the actual supplement to come out.

You can still run blackshields in veteran squads, you just can't have them in a proteus squad. So it only matters if you were planning on running a blackshield with some terminators or something.

But at the moment it may be better to just run a veteran squad, with storm shields and... well I'd say shotguns, but you lose your melee weapon then which is a big annoyance. Though a unit of shotguns and frag cannons feels like something I may have to do, regardless of how bad it is.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Yeah, I hadn't seen that either about the Blackshields. I was all ready to desprue lightning claw arms for them. I guess I'd better just work on the magnetizing project for the Corvuses and wait for the actual supplement to come out.

At 3 points per body, I think there's a real case to be made for LC vets. 21 Attacks at AP2 rerolling failed wounds with SIA for 115 points is...not terrible.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Yeah, I hadn't seen that either about the Blackshields. I was all ready to desprue lightning claw arms for them. I guess I'd better just work on the magnetizing project for the Corvuses and wait for the actual supplement to come out.

At 3 points per body, I think there's a real case to be made for LC vets. 21 Attacks at AP2 rerolling failed wounds with SIA for 115 points is...not terrible.

Problem with lightning claws is it makes the chapter trait redundant. Although you can work around this by giving them a target, and then choosing for the chapter trait to affect a different unit-role. So there's certainly room for tactics in there (which is, at least, somewhat fluffy).

Would you run them as Proteus, in order to combat squad a second unit of something like obsec terminators? Or would you just run them as vets, in order to get an additional blackshield?

One thing I did like is that the vet sgt can get a heavy thunder hammer AND a combat shield. I can see situations where I would work one in, although it would be few and far between.

 Leth wrote:
One thing I did like is that the vet sgt can get a heavy thunder hammer AND a combat shield. I can see situations where I would work one in, although it would be few and far between.

I dunno, I think giving the sergeant (or black shield) at least a power fist or thunder hammer, if not a heavy thunder hammer, is going to be a decent idea. All my CQC squads will probably do it. And considering the primaris teams all seem to favour being weapon teams, the vets squads are mostly going to end up being CQC.

Well, this release is just a mess, though DW should be used to that by now.

I've been thinking about the SIA changes and I think that I'm okay with the direction they are going. Although I have plenty of storm bolters my self, I wasn't crazy about having there be an obvious best weapon. Whenever I built one, the thought always occurred to me that we could lose SB SIA just as quickly as we got it. While I certainly won't change anything until the supplement drops, I think replacing the storm bolters with all those other options could be interesting especially since Bolter discipline seems to work with SIA again. Having a combi-bolter with a melee weapon or shield does seem more interesting than SB/SS.

I don't have a comment on Primaris and SIA since I don't care about them.

I do find it stupid that they made all of those extra weapon profiles, and only to restrict them to kill team Cassius. I know I'm not the only one who has some terminators with the melta fist.

I am much more concerned about the kill teams. I really hope that we aren't going to have to rely on Stratagems to access the kinds of abilities we got with mixed squads.

 Chris521 wrote:
Having a combi-bolter with a melee weapon or shield doesn't seem more interesting than SB/SS.

....

I do find it stupid that they made all of those extra weapon profiles, and only to restrict them to kill team Cassius. I know I'm not the only one who has some terminators with the melta fist.

I am much more concerned about the kill teams. I really hope that we aren't going to have to rely on Stratagems to access the kinds of abilities we got with mixed squads.

Do you mean to say "having a combi-bolter with melee or shield -does- seem more interesting"? Cos if not, the context of what you said seemed wrong. (Not trying to be a pedant, I actually agree with what you were saying, but the "doesn't" confused me, as to me the combi-bolter with discipline + SIA + another weapon or shield does seem like a decent enough loadout. I really, really wish that shotguns could also take a melee weapon.

Those weapon profiles in cassius would also fix a bunch of issues if they were universal. That heavy flamer would be BAD ASS if you could take it in terminator units. And obviously the deathwatch bike bolter ... I mean that has to be a mistake, right?

I think stratagems giving the killteams access to some abilities is going to be pretty likely. And it's not even -that- bad if it happens, depending on the cost. If they're cheap 1CP strats, I think it'll be pretty potent. Hell, they may even do the "if your killteam contains X unit, then this stratagem costs 0CP", which is what they did with the apothecary.

Niiru wrote:

Problem with lightning claws is it makes the chapter trait redundant.

Not for a moment. LCs are full wound rerolls. They're a threat to everything on the table.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Problem with lightning claws is it makes the chapter trait redundant.

Not for a moment. LCs are full wound rerolls. They're a threat to everything on the table.

That's what I mean though. Chapter trait lets you reroll 1's. LCs let you reroll everything. So the LCs make the chapter trait unnecessary (for that unit).

I'm not sure there's anything I'd give in its place though. Shame xenophase blades are limited to sergeants. LCs giving extra attacks make them likely better than most power weapons. Power mauls making you S7 is interesting.

I meant to say "does"

We only get reroll ones against one type right now. LCs would be against everything.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.

Unfortunately while the Infiltrator aura may extend to the entire unit, the Incursor ability does not. Eliminators derive no benefit from Multi-Spectrum Arrays.

Similarly, because of specific wording in the keywording sections of the FAQ, Spectrus kill teams can never benefit from the Reiver strat (they lack the Reiver keyword), and likewise Proteus kill teams can never benefit from Teleport Homers (because they can only gain the Terminator keyword if theyre comprised exclusively of Terminators).

Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.

Can you explain it to me, then? it says "The terror troops ability only applies while there are any Reivers in this unit" which is the same wording as the Infiltrators' Omni-scramblers ability. This makes think that as long as you have one reiver alive in the unit, then the unit gets terror troops.

Is this some weird function of "it lost the keyword by going to the kill team, thus it's not a Reiver despite being called a Reiver by name and cannot, therefore, have the 'Terror troops' ability in the first place?" becuase that would be confusing as hell.

Seems to me like you could do:

1 Watch Master
1 Watch Captain
1 Biker Chap (Master of Sanctity)

Fortis Kill teams
5x Intercessors, 5x Hellblasters
-and/or-
5x Intercessors, 5x Outriders

Spectrus Kill Team
5x infiltrators, 4x eliminators, 1 Reiver

Indomitor kill team
5x Hvy Intercessors, 5x eradicators

Apothecary (da Chief)

and then add whatever flavors of support you feel like depending on power level.

If you favor veterans, then you can mix and match that even further because I haven't wrapped my head around the options yet.

Taktix

I was also looking at the sergeant with heavy thunder hammer and combat shield. Combat shields are better than before, and relatively cheap, even if it is just for the one model.

I was looking at Black Shields with only one claw and a boltgun, but I believe a Black Shield with dual lightning claws is 6 attacks base, 7 with shock attack? I’m predicting that the clarification will come down on the side that you get +1 attack for each lightning claw (based on the FAQ about the raven guard relic claws).

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.

Unfortunately while the Infiltrator aura may extend to the entire unit, the Incursor ability does not. Eliminators derive no benefit from Multi-Spectrum Arrays.

Similarly, because of specific wording in the keywording sections of the FAQ, Spectrus kill teams can never benefit from the Reiver strat (they lack the Reiver keyword), and likewise Proteus kill teams can never benefit from Teleport Homers (because they can only gain the Terminator keyword if theyre comprised exclusively of Terminators).

Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.

Can you explain it to me, then? it says "The terror troops ability only applies while there are any Reivers in this unit" which is the same wording as the Infiltrators' Omni-scramblers ability. This makes think that as long as you have one reiver alive in the unit, then the unit gets terror troops.

Is this some weird function of "it lost the keyword by going to the kill team, thus it's not a Reiver despite being called a Reiver by name and cannot, therefore, have the 'Terror troops' ability in the first place?" becuase that would be confusing as hell.

Seems to me like you could do:

1 Watch Master
1 Watch Captain
1 Biker Chap (Master of Sanctity)

Fortis Kill teams
5x Intercessors, 5x Hellblasters
-and/or-
5x Intercessors, 5x Outriders

Spectrus Kill Team
5x infiltrators, 4x eliminators, 1 Reiver

Indomitor kill team
5x Hvy Intercessors, 5x eradicators

Apothecary (da Chief)

and then add whatever flavors of support you feel like depending on power level.

If you favor veterans, then you can mix and match that even further because I haven't wrapped my head around the options yet.

Taktix

I was also looking at the sergeant with heavy thunder hammer and combat shield. Combat shields are better than before, and relatively cheap, even if it is just for the one model.

I was looking at Black Shields with only one claw and a boltgun, but I believe a Black Shield with dual lightning claws is 6 attacks base, 7 with shock attack? I’m predicting that the clarification will come down on the side that you get +1 attack for each lightning claw (based on the FAQ about the raven guard relic claws).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

helomedic1171 wrote:


Can you explain it to me, then? it says "The terror troops ability only applies while there are any Reivers in this unit" which is the same wording as the Infiltrators' Omni-scramblers ability. This makes think that as long as you have one reiver alive in the unit, then the unit gets terror troops.

Is this some weird function of "it lost the keyword by going to the kill team, thus it's not a Reiver despite being called a Reiver by name and cannot, therefore, have the 'Terror troops' ability in the first place?" becuase that would be confusing as hell.

Seems to me like you could do:

1 Watch Master
1 Watch Captain
1 Biker Chap (Master of Sanctity)

Fortis Kill teams
5x Intercessors, 5x Hellblasters
-and/or-
5x Intercessors, 5x Outriders

Spectrus Kill Team
5x infiltrators, 4x eliminators, 1 Reiver

Indomitor kill team
5x Hvy Intercessors, 5x eradicators

Apothecary (da Chief)

and then add whatever flavors of support you feel like depending on power level.

If you favor veterans, then you can mix and match that even further because I haven't wrapped my head around the options yet.

Taktix

It looks like
-omni-scramblers extends to the whole unit, as long as it has one intercessor or the sergeant
-multi-spectrum array only applies to the individual incursor model

It’s not clear from the way it’s written if terror troops extends to the whole unit or not, but the terror troops rule got a rewrite in the new book (it’s -2 Ld now), so maybe with the new wording it’s clear. I don’t have the book yet.

The big problem I see with putting a Reiver into a Spectrus team is that Reivers don’t have Concealed Positions (unless they got it in the new book, which I doubt). So that may mean that other models in the combat squad with the Reiver can’t use Concealed Positions deployment. Also the other spectrus models obviously don’t get grav chutes or bat grapples.

If this turns out to be the case, then the viable way to put Reivers in a Spectrus unit is to have 5 Infiltrators/5 Reivers, have the infiltrators set up with concealed positions and have the Reivers deploy normally, drop, or swing onto the table.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

It’s not clear from the way it’s written if terror troops extends to the whole unit or not, but the terror troops rule got a rewrite in the new book (it’s -2 Ld now), so maybe with the new wording it’s clear. I don’t have the book yet.

A Reiver will impart the anti leadership aura. A Reiver will not, however, impart the Reiver keyword, which is what the stratagem that imparts the anti-obsec aura keys off of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:


That's what I mean though. Chapter trait lets you reroll 1's. LCs let you reroll everything. So the LCs make the chapter trait unnecessary (for that unit).

Thats not a problem. It means you dont need to expend resources (and can orient Mission Tactics elsewhere in the enemy army) for melee bully units, which are a key role in 9th.

Hmm. I've noticed something that a lot of people seem to have missed, considering how often I've seen the frag cannon being mentioned as being 10 points.

Its actually 15.

The points list for veterans doesn't include the price of the power sword, but it -does- include the 5pt cost of the bolt gun. Which is why everything in that list is 5pts cheaper than it should be. (eg. Plasma gun 5pts instead of 10pts.)

Confusing way to list it. And makes the frag cannon even worse as its 15 not 10. And the infernum heavy bolter is 20pts. The shotgun is 5pts (but isn't listed, I guess because its a 'free' swap).

 Elfric wrote:
while I dont like to be negative this feels like they wanted DW dumbed down. are chapter tactics gone? I havent played DW in a long time but I loved that there were strats to change from something like Malleus to Hereticus. It made DW really flexible. I also heard that there was a DW codex due early unless this is it??

Yeah, probably in like a month.

Hopefully soon, I'm worried for Sterling's health.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:
Hmm. I've noticed something that a lot of people seem to have missed, considering how often I've seen the frag cannon being mentioned as being 10 points.

Its actually 15.

The points list for veterans doesn't include the price of the power sword, but it -does- include the 5pt cost of the bolt gun. Which is why everything in that list is 5pts cheaper than it should be. (eg. Plasma gun 5pts instead of 10pts.)

Confusing way to list it. And makes the frag cannon even worse as its 15 not 10. And the infernum heavy bolter is 20pts. The shotgun is 5pts (but isn't listed, I guess because its a 'free' swap).

So, are you saying that the baseline cost of a veteran, which is basically an intercessor with +1LD, is 15pts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I was also looking at the sergeant with heavy thunder hammer and combat shield. Combat shields are better than before, and relatively cheap, even if it is just for the one model.

I was looking at Black Shields with only one claw and a boltgun, but I believe a Black Shield with dual lightning claws is 6 attacks base, 7 with shock attack? I’m predicting that the clarification will come down on the side that you get +1 attack for each lightning claw (based on the FAQ about the raven guard relic claws).

I don't know why you'd ever set up a Black Shield with a setup other than a chainsword in the offhand, since it essentially gives them +1A with their main weapon and the chainsword. Dual lightning claws might be worth the bonus attack with the lightning claw instead of the bonus attack with the chainsword but you're still paying the full price for a lightning claw to upgrade 1 attack from AP-1 to AP-2 reroll wounds, idk if that's worthwhile.

HTH is still more damage vs heavy targets than regular TH+Chainsword though, so that upgrade is at least still worthwhile.

the_scotsman wrote:

Hopefully soon, I'm worried for Sterling's health.

I think you'll find im quite fine when people dont spend hours trying to convince me that the gak they just poured on my shoes is actually magical mud.

the_scotsman wrote:

So, are you saying that the baseline cost of a veteran, which is basically an intercessor with +1LD, is 15pts?

It's not. The weapon costs are variable from unit to unit in 9th. A Vet is 20 points. The boltgun doesnt cost anything extra for them. The cost list for Biker Sergeants is...weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

I don't know why you'd ever set up a Black Shield with a setup other than a chainsword in the offhand, since it essentially gives them +1A with their main weapon and the chainsword. Dual lightning claws might be worth the bonus attack with the lightning claw instead of the bonus attack with the chainsword but you're still paying the full price for a lightning claw to upgrade 1 attack from AP-1 to AP-2 reroll wounds, idk if that's worthwhile.

HTH is still more damage vs heavy targets than regular TH+Chainsword though, so that upgrade is at least still worthwhile.

Honestly, I wouldnt lean too hard into the blackshield's new rule. The reason the single LC is such a massive upgrade is because it upgrades 4 (or 5 in the case of a Sarge or Blackshield) attacks significantly for a minor cost increase. Yes, you can give him a CS to give his LC another attack (due to the wording on the dual wielding bonus), but an SIA boltgun costs the same and allows him to be a threat at range as well.

Is there a note in the Vanvet entry in codex that allows DW to have a HTH on one guy per 5?

Unless I'm reading it wrong, which to be fair might be the case, if Vanguard Veterans are included in a Killteam they a) don't need a jump pack and b) can take a storm shield for 4pts per model. They'd be 2pts cheaper than Veterans in a Proteus Killteam equipped with Storm Shields. They'd miss out on the bolters, but could be a comparatively advantageous option for melee delivery and can still ride in Rhinos.

 bullyboy wrote:
Is there a note in the Vanvet entry in codex that allows DW to have a HTH on one guy per 5?

Vanvets is any number of models, replaces both pistol and sword (DW only obviously)

Sterling191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


So, are you saying that the baseline cost of a veteran, which is basically an intercessor with +1LD, is 15pts?

It's not. The weapon costs are variable from unit to unit in 9th. A Vet is 20 points. The boltgun doesnt cost anything extra for them. The cost list for Biker Sergeants is...weird.

I mean... I haven't seen the points costs for the space marine codex, but are you saying that their veteran squads play 5pts for a plasma gun and 5 points for a meltagun etc?

Cos if they do, then fine. But if they don't, then I'm right - deathwatch veterans are effectively 15 points for the body. Because a DW veteran with a plasmagun is 25pts (and plasma costs 10).

But it may well be that space marines infantry do only pay 5pts for these weapons. I haven't seen the page.

Does make the biker page weird, as it has shotguns and bolters as being 5pts each.

Frag is 10 points because it replaces the power sword and bolter.

 Leth wrote:
Frag is 10 points because it replaces the power sword and bolter.

Power sword is irrelevant, as you have to pay extra for it anyway (its not included in the points of the squad).

Veteran is 20 points with a bolter. 23 with a power sword. 25 with a 10pt plasmagun. 30 with a 15pt frag cannon.

Unless (as I said before) plasmaguns are actually only 5pts for everyone now. In which case they're 25 for a 5pt plasmagun, and 30 with a 10 pt frag cannon. But that still makes frags worse, as they're double the cost of plasma/melta.

But the biker entry next to it says plasma is 10pt, which is the same as I thought it was in the new codex too.

Frag is 10 points because its far less effective than it used to be. Blast on 2D3 is.... weird.

 LunarSol wrote:
Frag is 10 points because its far less effective than it used to be. Blast on 2D3 is.... weird.

I'm... pretty sure you missed the point of what I was saying lol.

Frags aren't 10pts. They're 15pts. They are 5 points more expensive than plasmaguns.

You're right about one thing though, they're terrible. They'd be bad even if they were 10 points.

Niiru wrote:

Frags aren't 10pts. They're 15pts. They are 5 points more expensive than plasmaguns.

Know what's fun (and by fun I mean mildly entertaining cause its absolutely going to get nerfed)? Deathwatch now have some of the cheapest PPW special weapon delivery teams in the entire damn game. We're better than Scions on that front, we're not limited to Command Squads for density, and with the new Astartes Chainswords we're packing a not inconsiderate melee punch as a follow up.

Put another way: a DW vet with a plasma rifle is now cheaper than a Tactical Marine with a plasma rifle despite having a superior melee profile and better leadership.