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At first: I know how Keywords are indicated.

Sterling191 wrote:
Per the 9th BRB, that is a keyword, not a model name. Otherwise you're going to need to explain what the "Deathwatch" model they're referencing later in the rule is (hint, it's not a model, it's another Keyword).

I have to admit I have overread that Deathwatch-Sentence. As far as I remember, up to this point the wording was to only mention the Keyword (so "Terminator" and not "Terminator model"), which was confusing here.
But that doesn't change that GW is running in circles here.

 bullyboy wrote:
Although I'm going to wait on the suppIement to fully decide on my Kill Teams, I'm thinking that this will be my current make up of the primaris (not spamming for combat squads, not my style).

Fortis...5 Auto bolt Intercessors with PF on sgt, 3 assault intercessors, 2 auto plasma hellblasters. No outriders here as I think they're not good unless you take the 5 as a combat squad. Not sure i would even Combat Squad this team.

Indomitor...5 Heavy Intercessors, 2 eradicators, 1 aggressor, 2 Inceptors. Not really an optimized team, it really comes down to what I have leftover from my other marine lists. This is one that might change the most when I see the supplement.

Spectrus...5 Infiltrators, 1 Incursor with HW mine, 1 Reiver, 3 Eliminators. I don't think 9 eliminators in my Ravenguard is worth it anymore, so I'll transport 3 over to the Deathwatch. Combat squad 3 Infils with incursor and reiver. Eliminators will join 2 infiltrators.

So much of this will be dictated by the codex, but I do have a lot of spare Primaris to allocate to Deathwatch.

In the 4(?) years since this army has been released, pretty much every build has been completely invalidated by each change released. I'm probably not buying anything until the FAQ for the supplement means I've got 6 months until GW wipes me out again. That said, thoughts at the moment:

Fortis: I don't.... get this team. Like at all. I've got all the stuff, but I don't see how any of it mixes. At the moment, I'm not seeing a reason to run this team.

Indomitor: Heavy Intercessors feel pretty mainline but the killteam feels awkward. Eradicators are awesome, but adding ablative woulds demands those wounds shoot at the same target for them to remain awesome. Aggressors and Incursors have really awkward ranges for this team. Not sure.

Spectrus: Probably the team I'm mostly likely to pick up beforehand if I get motivated as they seem like they'll be fairly important. Good combat squad options and Eliminators mix into the unit fairly well. Pretty interested in this one.

I will say, the big wildcard is the killteam keyword added to each. I think/hope we'll see a lot of Strats that require the killteam to use and they'll probably really determine what works. As is, none of the killteams really have an incentive to mix, even if I theoretically like the idea.

 LunarSol wrote:

Indomitor: Heavy Intercessors feel pretty mainline but the killteam feels awkward. Eradicators are awesome, but adding ablative woulds demands those wounds shoot at the same target for them to remain awesome. Aggressors and Incursors have really awkward ranges for this team. Not sure.

Fully agree on the Aggressors and Inceptors. Both look to be better off as standalone formations (the former because they want to be smashing stuff in melee, while the latter want to be zooming around the table as mini-gunships) which dont for a moment mesh with the other options in the loadout.. Which leaves us with HIs and Eradicators.

I know the memetic choice is the 5/5 combo (and honest to god I want somebody to run a 30+ Eradicator list at a WHW event just to give a giant feth you to the rules team that put us in this mess), but I do genuinely think (at the current price point at least) there is a place for a 6/4 Indomitor team in a lot of lists. 6 HIs with no special weapon and 4 heavy Eradicators comes out on my napkin math at 348 points. Combat squad down to 3/2 elements and you're forcing your opponent to chew through three HIs before ever getting to the juicy Eradicator center, while also not overloading weapons in either squad to a point where the double tap of the Eradicators is legitimately threatened. The end result is a dangerous, durable, but not overwhelmingly expensive or ludicrously aggro-drawing unit that just has to be dealt with. Park each midfield, add character aura support to taste and let them go to town slagging vehicles and elite infantry.

(Note: none of the above should be considered a disavowal of my burning hatred of Eradicators and how exceptionally bad I think they are for 9th as a whole, just a dispassionate look at how I would personally use them in the current Kill Team structure)

I tried super hard not to turn every one of those into "except combat squad abuse".

 LunarSol wrote:
I tried super hard not to turn every one of those into "except combat squad abuse".

In fairness, I think deploying creative combat squads of mixed models is a far different beast than "here's a 5/5 split so you can bypass model restrictions", and are the other half of the Mixed Unit equation IMO. Even if GW doesnt give them bespoke special rules for being mixed, they can cause strategic issues by virtue of the ingredients you use. One of my favorite Proteus Kill Teams for instance is the 5 Vet, 3 Bike, 2 VanVet loadout (which I ran in 8th and do still plan to attempt to make work in 9th). Combat squadding makes it work, but it results in constituent components that fulfill very different roles than their constituent progenitor parts.

We're one of the few factions that can legitimately make Combat Squads an asset. Lean into that where you can, without being dumbtastic about the whole thing.

Absolutely. That's definitely why I like Spectrus team best among the options. It feels like the one in which the resulting split teams are more mechanically compelling than gimmicky.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I tried super hard not to turn every one of those into "except combat squad abuse".

In fairness, I think deploying creative combat squads of mixed models is a far different beast than "here's a 5/5 split so you can bypass model restrictions", and are the other half of the Mixed Unit equation IMO. Even if GW doesnt give them bespoke special rules for being mixed, they can cause strategic issues by virtue of the ingredients you use. One of my favorite Proteus Kill Teams for instance is the 5 Vet, 3 Bike, 2 VanVet loadout (which I ran in 8th and do still plan to attempt to make work in 9th). Combat squadding makes it work, but it results in constituent components that fulfill very different roles than their constituent progenitor parts.

We're one of the few factions that can legitimately make Combat Squads an asset. Lean into that where you can, without being dumbtastic about the whole thing.

I definitely agree that it is an asset, and while I still think there's value in that mixed Bike/Vanguard unit, much of what made I loved about it in 8th was the bonuses it received from being a mixed unit - even when combat squadded. Being able to fall back, shoot, and still charge made it an ultra maneuverable threat that was fun to use. Now it's just sort of a Bike squad with a couple of slightly different models.

Combat squad as the only benefit for these mixed units seems to be a far cry from what made Kill Teams exciting in the first place.

Unrelated, but I'm excited to paint up some Deathwatch flyers to flank my Blackstars. May not be particularly effective in any way, but it'll look bloody badass.

Could i still use Stalker Patern Boltgun with a storm shield?

And do you guys still use storm bolters? till now i have to cut all my vets, because everyone has sb/ss or stalker / ss -.-

The current equipment list does not permit an SBG to be used with a Storm Shield.

That said, don’t go hacking anything up. The supplement should be out soon(tm), and will likely change everything again.

 Hesselhof wrote:
Could i still use Stalker Patern Boltgun with a storm shield?

And do you guys still use storm bolters? till now i have to cut all my vets, because everyone has sb/ss or stalker / ss -.-

I would definitely not still use storm bolters. I have actually taken the opportunity to prime up basically my whole bits bag, and cut most of my marines at the wrist (except for a couple with awkward weapons like hths I know I wont be able to) and now I have 15 or so swappablemarines.

Stalker/SS is not allowed, no. They're enforcing the two-handed nature of the shotguns and stalkers now for some reason.

Thanks for reply. Hmmm

How would a DW list look like atm? =/

 Hesselhof wrote:
Thanks for reply. Hmmm

How would a DW list look like atm? =/

I would not suggest investing in anything you don't already have, and for the most part just play whatever you want for right now. There's a ton of new units previously unavailable, and with how few people represent the faction competitively there is unlikely to be consensus on what a good DW list looks like for quite some time. The army is in flux because the supplement isn't here yet, but it also means experimentation is key right now.

 Hesselhof wrote:
Thanks for reply. Hmmm

How would a DW list look like atm? =/

Overall for space marines right now, it seems like you need 2-3 sturdy obsec units. Use one to cover your home objective.

Then get a second obsec unit on top of one of the objectives in no-man’s land in turn 1 to start scoring primaries in turn 2. Heavy intercessors have the best points-wounds ratio in the Deathwatch list right now, and they’re T5. But vets with chainswords are only slightly less efficient on points-to-wounds (but at T4). Also, unlike other armies that might struggle to get infantry onto an objective 12” away in one turn, Deathwatch can use combat-squadded obsec bikes or vanguard vets to camp the second objective.

Then you need at least 1-2 strong countercharge units to scrape off anything that tries to take one of those objectives from you—this is a good place to put the buffing characters as well. Terminators, aggressors, vanguard vets with melee weapons, bladeguard vets. They run back and forth between your two objectives, which are usually within 12-18 inches of each other, and make sure that you score the “hold two” primary points every turn.

[edit note] Lightning claws are currently the most efficient of the 1-damage power weapons right now (because of the extra attacks), and they are free on Deathwatch terminators.

Then you need some fast-moving units for bullying and harassing, picking up extra points on secondaries, contesting lightly-defended objectives, and killing long-range shooting threats. Bikes/outriders, inceptors, speeders, flyers, outflanking eradicators. Even a combat squad of 5 reivers with grav chutes can be made obsec and can drop in and grab a lightly-defended objective anywhere on the table for 100 points.

So there are lots of options for Deathwatch. It’s just that the options, except for the obsec combat squads, are not very competitive or fluffy right now compared with generic space marines.

the_scotsman wrote:

Stalker/SS is not allowed, no. They're enforcing the two-handed nature of the shotguns and stalkers now for some reason.

I loathe the fact every one of those things is stuck loading the clip....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ancible wrote:

Combat squad as the only benefit for these mixed units seems to be a far cry from what made Kill Teams exciting in the first place.

I suspect we'll see a lot of stuff moved to strategems that target the different Kill Team keywords.

Once someone mentioned the idea of special rules moving towards strategems I actually really like it more than special rule bloat, just from a gameplay and diversity perspective.

By making it a once per turn strategem, it discourages repetition and encourages taking a variety of units.

Personally I dont plan on taking more than two of any kill team, I like how each team brings something a little bit different which means you are going to play them differently.

Heavy intercessors strike me as great backfield objective sitters. I dont plan on running more than 3 eradicators(especially since I expect an eventual nerf before covid ends) and rather want to bring ALL THE BIKES(I love bikes, got 3 go-karts on the way).

So on and so forth.

I personally like that we are not as OP as regular marines, means I will get better matches.

 Leth wrote:
Once someone mentioned the idea of special rules moving towards strategems I actually really like it more than special rule bloat, just from a gameplay and diversity perspective.

Because nothing says fun times like a rule turning into a once-per turn CP fueled gotcha moment.

It's no less rules bloat than simply allowing Kill Teams to actually, y'know, do things, but instead you're stuck with the entire rest of your army that apparently forgot how to be Kill Teams. It was garbage design for Apocalypse, and if implemented it's going to be equally garbage for mainline 40k.

I have to agree. There are already like 50 stratagems in the game (hell, in the space marine codex alone) too many. There should be like... 5. Total.

Everything else should be on datasheets, and pointed appropriately.

90% of the imbalance in this game right now is due to stratagems being used in ways and on units that the GW team didn't consider. Or because a stratagem is faction/chapter locked. Just look at the slaanesh shoot-twice stratagem, which basically makes all slaanesh forces overpowered and cheap, and any other chaos faction weak and overcosted.

Even a combat squad of 5 reivers with grav chutes can be made obsec and can drop in and grab a lightly-defended objective anywhere on the table for 100 points.

RAW, that dies not work at the Moment due to Lazy rules writing. Declaration of Reserve, passengers in Transport etc. Is Done before deployment, splitting in combat squads happens at the Start of deployment. So, when declaring reserves, you don 't have a full unit of grave chute Models and can't Use the deep strike...

Many thanks for the tipps.

yesterday I made some thougts about a basic structure

Battalion:

Watchmaster

5 Infils + 5 incursor/ or 10 infils
5 infils + 5 incursor/ or 10 infils
5 stalker patern vets + 3 bikes with chainsword + 1 VV double pistol + 1 VV double claw
5 stalker patern vets + 3 bikes with chainsword + 1 VV double pistol + 1 VV double claw

Then i was thinking of adding 2x5 terminators: 3 with hammer + shield 2 with double claw, dunno if single or added in a killteam for counter charge

What for second or third hq? as anti tank/monster/ big stuff eradicators?

You guys this could work?

I tried hvy. Intercessor with eradicators, combat splitted into 2+3 and 3+2, which worked ok. I would definitely recommend a master apothecary - full heal of two gravis models per turn and 0 cp revival is really hilarious... i was not impressed by the performance of incursor/ infiltrators, the only thing they are good at is deploy scramblers... 5 deepstriking termies with triple flamer were fun and rather cheap with power swords

As regarding terminators: what about 4 veterans with stalker, together with a cyclone terminator for fire support and 4 cc terminators with black shield with 2 cc weapons as countercharge? Black shield with fist and cs or claw dishes out 5 attacks fist at ws 2+...

Bossdoc wrote:

As regarding terminators: what about 4 veterans with stalker, together with a cyclone terminator for fire support and 4 cc terminators with black shield with 2 cc weapons as countercharge? Black shield with fist and cs or claw dishes out 5 attacks fist at ws 2+...

THIS sounds great or blackshield with double claw for 7 atks in charge

but is 4 vets + BS possible?

RAW, that dies not work at the Moment due to Lazy rules writing. Declaration of Reserve, passengers in Transport etc. Is Done before deployment, splitting in combat squads happens at the Start of deployment. So, when declaring reserves, you don 't have a full unit of grave chute Models and can't Use the deep strike...

See index page 3 abilities, it works they took the example with vets and termis

 Hesselhof wrote:

THIS sounds great or blackshield with double claw for 7 atks in charge

but is 4 vets + BS possible?

It is not. Blackshields cannot be taken in Proteus Kill Teams.

 Hesselhof wrote:

See index page 3 abilities, it works they took the example with vets and termis

Sadly it does not. The Index got the order of operations wrong for pre-game steps. If the order were different, it would work. But it isnt.

Ok so a black shield only can included in a pure veteran squad?

Could i use 4 vets + termi & 4 termis + sarg? (squaded)


With the index ability, just wow - gj GW.... XD

 Hesselhof wrote:
Many thanks for the tipps.

yesterday I made some thougts about a basic structure

Battalion:

Watchmaster

5 Infils + 5 incursor/ or 10 infils
5 infils + 5 incursor/ or 10 infils
5 stalker patern vets + 3 bikes with chainsword + 1 VV double pistol + 1 VV double claw
5 stalker patern vets + 3 bikes with chainsword + 1 VV double pistol + 1 VV double claw

Then i was thinking of adding 2x5 terminators: 3 with hammer + shield 2 with double claw, dunno if single or added in a killteam for counter charge

What for second or third hq? as anti tank/monster/ big stuff eradicators?

You guys this could work?

Usually, when I make a DW list, I go for:

1) Allied patrol of something super-cheap to hold objectives, provide a screen if I'm up against an enemy I know has a super reliable turn 1 alpha strike, and perform actions so my expensive deathwatch duders can go smash face. I've been loving the Rogue Trader patrol from the boxed game plus a flexi-assassin imperial agent who is often a Vindicare.

2) jump chaplain whose job is to pop the +2" charge aura. I now run her with the relic that grants her a +1A aura within 6", jump pack, master of sanctity. Then I've got a 10-man vet squad in a drop pod, and a 9-man vanvet squad with a mix of HTHs and Chainsword+Storm Shield. Depending on how my opponent's army looks, all of it might be in deep strike, just the chaplain might be on the board, or both the chaplain and vanvets might be on the board, basically comes down to is my opponent coming to me or am I going to come to him turn 2.

The chaplain can now come down and pop the +2" charge aura in the move phase with Inspiring Oratory, which basically replaces her previous tactic of pulling in the assault squad using the beacon angelis. This last game, the squad in the pod had sergeant with HTH, blackshield with HTH, a couple Lightning Claw+Combiflamer guys, and the rest Chainsword+Storm Shield.

3) Troop kill teams consisting of 5 terminators, 5 veterans, and my captain who's generally the warlord. I'm now taking Storm of Fire on him since I make pretty heavy use of boltguns in the teams. The terminators deep strike if I need them to go up the board, or stick to the squad if I need them to tank longrange firepower. Combiplasma+Chainsword, Bolter+Storm Shield, and Frag Cannon are my most common vet setup here.

Thank you for your advice!

But if you use a cheap allie patrol you lose the combat doctrines, is it worth?

How do ypu equipt the termis?

 Hesselhof wrote:
Thank you for your advice!

But if you use a cheap allie patrol you lose the combat doctrines, is it worth?

How do ypu equipt the termis?

Combat doctrines isn't as clear cut as it used to be...

Old codex rule needed every model to have the rule in order for doctrines to work, new codex (going from preview vids as I don't have it yet) states that all models must have either <ADEPTUS ASTARTES>, <UNALIGNED> or <AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM> keywords. Potentially this allows other marine chapters, Inquisitors, Assassins, Grey Knights and Legion of the Damned to be added, but I doubt a cheap patrol is hidden amongst those options so it's questionable if it's worth the CP cost. If we continue to not have a super doctrine after the supplement, doing a patrol of other marines isn't totally silly.

A patrol as a second detachment does cost you CPs in 9th edition, though.

There's plenty of extra troop slots. Just take some cheap primaris Deathwatch troops to stand on the home objective. Then you don't have to pay for the required HQ for the patrol or pay the 2 CPs

 Hesselhof wrote:
Thank you for your advice!

But if you use a cheap allie patrol you lose the combat doctrines, is it worth?

How do ypu equipt the termis?

Yeah, so far I've played without them. Having a screen and having 4 mini-characters able to run around the board raising banners, holding objectives and hiding out of LOS has been worthwhile to me more so than the extra AP i'd get turn 2-3 (I only field a couple heavy weapons so it's not great turn 1, and turn 4+ rarely matters anyhow)

We dont have to wait long, to hopefully get this mess fixed.:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/15/warhammer-40000-the-codex-roadmap
Text states that DW is coming right after Necrons. But the pictures looks more like SW will be in between.

So I finally got my codex and I think people are sleeping on the Phobos warlord trait allowing for 3 units to re-deploy.

I wish the Phobos captains weapon wasn’t “meh” or he had the options t swap and I would take him, however Phobos librarian and two infiltrator units seems like a solid investment, especially since we will be able to reposition after finding out if we go first or second.

Put midfield deployment blockers and adjust depending on how our opponent deploys/puts units in reserves.

Plus Phobos psychic powers have some solid utility, and having the denies/smites wouldn’t hurt.