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There's a few questions that come up now (don't know if we have enough info to answer them) -

1. Lightning claws. Now that dw get widespread access to reroll wounds (1s or all), are these still the best choice? You pay 25 for the kill team specialisation, if you can then save that by not taking claws it would be nice. Claws seem half wasted, but you do still get extra attacks.

2. Do the kill team specialisations properly outweigh the benefits of a lieutenant? If you're castling a gun line, a lieutenant may work out cheaper, plus it works vs all enemies rather than single roles.

Niiru wrote:

1. Lightning claws. Now that dw get widespread access to reroll wounds (1s or all), are these still the best choice? You pay 25 for the kill team specialisation, if you can then save that by not taking claws it would be nice. Claws seem half wasted, but you do still get extra attacks.

The math on this will get weird, and is obviously highly matchup dependent, but I think LCs are still the way to go outside of extremely specialist configurations. The extra attack, and the always on nature of the reroll is exceptionally reliable, and allows a unit to engage a target even if that target isnt it's Favored Enemy (yeah I'm cribbing DnD, no I dont care).

Niiru wrote:

2. Do the kill team specialisations properly outweigh the benefits of a lieutenant? If you're castling a gun line, a lieutenant may work out cheaper, plus it works vs all enemies rather than single roles.

This one is going to require knowing our Strats and Relics, but I think it does. Between the always on RR1s that a team gets for its Favored Enemy, an upgrade to full rerolls for said Favored Enemy, and a WLT that allows us to modulate RR1s, there is limited space for an LT as a buffer. As a mini beatstick who isnt restricted to FoC slot restrictions, they may show up. But I dont think leaning on them for castles is the way to go.

i guess being able to buy permanent RR1s on a unit is a reason to take the new primaris kill teams, albeit a somewhat dull one.

Curious abut that SIA strat. Going to heavy 1 would be really weird - so it's super duper good with Stalker Bolt Rifles, Bolt Sniper Rifles and the like but super gakky with assault bolters?

Compiled leak link here (not my work, just passing along. Big kudos to the crew the last few pages who pulled these down from the interweb ether):

https://imgur.com/a/rgFKOCS

Nice to see Malleus didn't forget Dedicated Transports this time.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

1. Lightning claws. Now that dw get widespread access to reroll wounds (1s or all), are these still the best choice? You pay 25 for the kill team specialisation, if you can then save that by not taking claws it would be nice. Claws seem half wasted, but you do still get extra attacks.

The math on this will get weird, and is obviously highly matchup dependent, but I think LCs are still the way to go outside of extremely specialist configurations. The extra attack, and the always on nature of the reroll is exceptionally reliable, and allows a unit to engage a target even if that target isnt it's Favored Enemy (yeah I'm cribbing DnD, no I dont care).

I don't necessarily disagree, but it also means if your unit has lightning claws it may not be worth paying the points for the killteam specialisation. If you're using LCs you have no ranged weapons to benefit from it anyway. If you're only using a single LC, then a chainsword would give the same attacks number plus rerolls, for 5ppm less.

I'd maybe say specialisations are for shooty units, and hybrid units, but dedicated blenders would have double LC (and a librarian for that power that makes them go first etc) and skip the specialisation.

However it also opens up other weapon options, like powerswords might now work out better even with less attacks? vs elites where the S5 and AP-3 (with rerolls from specialisation) closes the gap?

I don't know the maths, and you're right it'll all be about matchups etc. I just found it an interesting quirk.

I know LCs are currently king, but it'd be cool if our abilities meant we could suddenly be the niche chapter where "pseudo-lightning swords" or "lightning-hammers" are a thing.


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the_scotsman wrote:
i guess being able to buy permanent RR1s on a unit is a reason to take the new primaris kill teams, albeit a somewhat dull one.

Curious abut that SIA strat. Going to heavy 1 would be really weird - so it's super duper good with Stalker Bolt Rifles, Bolt Sniper Rifles and the like but super gakky with assault bolters?

I dunno... the kill team combos were at least somewhat fluffy, and they couldn't all get the unit abilities (imaging one eradicator letting a whole killteam fire twice, it'd be fun but also stupid). The main problem was that taking the kill teams was no better (in some cases worse) than just playing a vanilla chapter and running them normally.

Being able to basically promote your squad leader into a (specialised target) leiutenant, for a fairly acceptable premium, I think might be enough to tip the balance. I would still probably favour the oldschool vets for their more customisable weapon options, but I can see a couple of the primaris ones being potent enough now.

Totally depends on the stratagems and stuff though still. Like you, I need to see the SIA stratagem wording, as that makes a world of difference.

Niiru wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree, but it also means if your unit has lightning claws it may not be worth paying the points for the killteam specialisation. If you're using LCs you have no ranged weapons to benefit from it anyway. If you're only using a single LC, then a chainsword would give the same attacks number plus rerolls, for 5ppm less.

Against a Favored Enemy, absolutely. But against something else, S4 AP1 with +1A will only take you so far. I completely understand the cost argument here, and for many situations it may be the break point in a list.

Niiru wrote:

I'd maybe say specialisations are for shooty units, and hybrid units, but dedicated blenders would have double LC (and a librarian for that power that makes them go first etc) and skip the specialisation.

The thing is though, giving up even basic boltguns for one additional LC attack per model...doesnt really make a lot sense to me. SIA boltguns can still be scary, especially against Favored Enemies. If you're planning to split off a 5-pack of VanVets and have them go hunting, by all means go full Logan and *snikt* the place up. But for basic Vets I'm not sold.

I could absolutely be wrong on this though as I have a significant bias towards multi-purpose formations.

Niiru wrote:

However it also opens up other weapon options, like powerswords might now work out better even with less attacks? vs elites where the S5 and AP-3 (with rerolls from specialisation) closes the gap?

I don't know the maths, and you're right it'll all be about matchups etc. I just found it an interesting quirk.

I know LCs are currently king, but it'd be cool if our abilities meant we could suddenly be the niche chapter where "pseudo-lightning swords" or "lightning-hammers" are a thing.

I think if you're specializing on the melee front it's either massed attacks via LCs (or even chainswords if you're looking specifically at a low cost Furor anti-troops configuration), or high quality attacks via Fists/Hammers/Heavy Hammers. The additional attacks/damage just skew the output calculations too much for the mid-strength of the Sword/Axe/Maul to catch up against most target profiles, even with the full wound reroll.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree, but it also means if your unit has lightning claws it may not be worth paying the points for the killteam specialisation. If you're using LCs you have no ranged weapons to benefit from it anyway. If you're only using a single LC, then a chainsword would give the same attacks number plus rerolls, for 5ppm less.

Against a Favored Enemy, absolutely. But against something else, S4 AP1 with +1A will only take you so far. I completely understand the cost argument here, and for many situations it may be the break point in a list.

That's kinda what I'm getting at though. The swords are free, and the single LC would be 3pts, and the only benefit vs favoured enemy is -1AP. Not sure if its worth the 3pts.

I agree with you on the killteam builds though, before this leak my plan was to run boltgun+LC as a base loadout (though I wanted to run shotgun+LC, sad times). But on a squad of 10 guys, changing LC to chainswords saves 30 pts. Don't know if -1AP is worth that many points. Possibly is.

Though I wouldn't run 10 like that anyway, I'd probably have a hammer in there and a couple shields etc... so yeh. Not sure how this will all shake out.

Killteams have always been a little dodgey with infinitely combinations with only a finite set of useful ones. This time around, it seems like we've got a lot of options of Base Unit + 1 specific support add on, which is probably more than usual, but we have less variety within the units themselves now that there's no advantage to taking say, one Aggressor or something.

 LunarSol wrote:
Killteams have always been a little dodgey with infinitely combinations with only a finite set of useful ones. This time around, it seems like we've got a lot of options of Base Unit + 1 specific support add on, which is probably more than usual, but we have less variety within the units themselves now that there's no advantage to taking say, one Aggressor or something.

One aggressor might be a decent way to throw some hidden powerfists into a unit?

I get what you're saying though, just looking for the options we have.

Niiru wrote:

That's kinda what I'm getting at though. The swords are free, and the single LC would be 3pts, and the only benefit vs favoured enemy is -1AP. Not sure if its worth the 3pts.

Against a favored enemy, the chainsword will absolutely win out for efficiency. But the LC allows the unit to still be very scary against non FEs. That extra capacity I think is entirely worth the 3ppm premium, assuming you're not kitting with shields.

Niiru wrote:

Though I wouldn't run 10 like that anyway, I'd probably have a hammer in there and a couple shields etc... so yeh. Not sure how this will all shake out.

Indeed. There's a *ton* to digest (and more to come once we get info on Strats and Relics).

Did I miss it. Or can veterans not take shotguns?

I see it for bikers?

Skarsgard wrote:
Did I miss it. Or can veterans not take shotguns?

I see it for bikers?

They can take DW shotguns, they just dont cost extra.


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Niiru wrote:

One aggressor might be a decent way to throw some hidden powerfists into a unit?

I get what you're saying though, just looking for the options we have.

I think folks are going to have a hard time adjusting to Aggressors being baby Assault Centurions after the entirety of 8th with them being shooting lawnmowers.

Niiru wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Killteams have always been a little dodgey with infinitely combinations with only a finite set of useful ones. This time around, it seems like we've got a lot of options of Base Unit + 1 specific support add on, which is probably more than usual, but we have less variety within the units themselves now that there's no advantage to taking say, one Aggressor or something.

One aggressor might be a decent way to throw some hidden powerfists into a unit?

I get what you're saying though, just looking for the options we have.

Indomitor has some solid options. I think it feels a lot like Fortis did in 8th. I can see this one being configured a few different ways.

Spectrus seems pretty cool, particularly for Combat squadding. Reivers are kind of disappointing. Not a ton of variety, but a functional mix with some options.

Proteus has a ton of wargear configurations but the extras are a bit odd. If you're going dedicated melee, Vanguard Vets save a point though the Jump Pack is pointless. Bikes seem pretty useless as well.

Fortis, sadly, feels very confused. I suppose they're still good ablative Hellblasters, and might deliver Assault Intercessors fairly well. Not very excited about this one sadly.

With the specialized teams, things get a bit more interesting.
Indomitor teams either geared up to shred troops with re-rolling agressors or tanks with rerolling hbolters and eliminators, plus throwing on a 5+++ on them seems like a good workhorse.

Spectrus eliminators with HQ rerolls for headhunting sounds fun.

You're right about Fortis, they seem pretty plain-jane riflemen with maybe some hellblasters if you want to get expensive. Hopefully some strats are able to breath more life into them over just taking regular intercessor squads.

I can see myself running:

Proteus vets - definitely. not sure how yet, will depend on how things shake out, and whether the stuff I want to model will be too much of a handicap. A few options here still. Guys with shields being 4++/5+++ with a libby is interesting (termies being 1+/4++/5++ might work now too).

Spectrus - probably at least one unit of these. Infiltrators for denial, with an incursor for a melta mine might be interesting. Eliminators (probably in a combat squad unit, maybe with one infiltrator for more denial). This all works and is fluffy.

Indomitor - Maybe. Not sure. Eradicators might be worth it. Not sure I'd bother with aggressors or inceptors. Several of these roles can be done by standard vets though.

Fortis - If outriders shake out as being good enough, I may take one Fortis just for an outrider combat squad. But again, proteus can do most of this.

I suspect I'd be going proteus + spectrus, and then use my remaining points on vehicles/dreads.

Depends entirely on strats though.

With the defensive abilities now available, we can push an Indomitor team to nearly Blightlord levels of resilience. I'm strongly leaning towards one for midfield objective holding and/or tank hunting (all comes down to whether I can stomach taking Eradicators).

Spectrus headhunters with Eliminators taking HQ scalps from across the table is a no brainer and I expect to see a team like that in most Deathwatch forces. Fluffy as feth and utterly terrifying when they fully power up.

Forts...I'm not seeing it. Maaaaybe if you want to do an Impulsor rush type list and mix in assault/RF Hellblasters?

Proteus teams I do think are going to be the meat and potatoes of Kill Team focused lists. They're the squads that go up field and take care of business. Hopefully they also fixed the Teleport Homer (probably not but a fella can hope).

I won't underestimate Fortis yet. If the rumour about the strat for SIA is true, 10 stalker intercessors with SIA could be interesting.

But will see

So this isn't my idea, but:

Brilliant Strategist trait - unique for Dark Angels - is:
In command phase, Select 1 dark angels unit within 6”. Until next command phase, if tactical doctrine is active they count as devastator. If Assault doctrine is active, they count as tactical.
So it lets you ‘roll back’ to a previous doctrine for one unit a turn. Pretty nice as it will let a unit stay in devastator for 3 turns."

This is in the codex, so you can pick it as a DW warlord.

Meaning one unit in your army can be Tactical for turns 1 & 2 (by choosing it using superdoctrine), and get converted to devastator by the warlord. And then you naturally just choose devastator for turn 3. So your heavy weapon squad is under dev for up to 3 turns.

Good? I dunno. Interesting though.

Also seems to work for the Blood Angel trait where you get to fight first with your warlord, though I dunno if that's useful to us.

Even with the additional rules it’s rough because one thing can make or break an entire build.

I am thinking one volume of fire kill team with the anti-troop upgrade could be worthwhile, maybe 1-2 with Aquila depending on how our targets can be changed.

 Leth wrote:
Even with the additional rules it’s rough because one thing can make or break an entire build.

I am thinking one volume of fire kill team with the anti-troop upgrade could be worthwhile, maybe 1-2 with Aquila depending on how our targets can be changed.

If you read the rules for Kill Team Cassius above the Aquila rules you'll realize that you can only have one of each kill team specialization, except if you take Kill Team Cassius.

Well I wouldn’t want to take more than one of each. Ain’t no one got points for that. At most I would take 2

So a full Indomitus kill team (5 Hvy Intercessors, 4 eradicators and an Aggressor) is 340pts (more if you add a specialism). Chief Primaris Apothecary at 95pts. Indomitus Captain with Dominus Aegis shield 105pts. A meaty blob that can hold the center, has a 5++ (could invest in a Libby to add the 5+++ too).

But, that's 540pts already....pretty pricey. Going to be the downside to a lot of the DW stuff you want to take...it just adds up really quickly.

Do we know if the aegis is still in he rules?

 Leth wrote:
Do we know if the aegis is still in he rules?

No (unless someone has seen the page but not shared it with the class).

I'm also not sure if the indomitus team is worth it. It's hard to shift, but it's so expensive.

You could run a cheaper unit of proteus vets / termies, with a librarian, and end up with a fair few wounds with either 2+/4++/5+++ or 1+/4++/5+++. Hell the terminators may not even be worth the points cost over vets with shields, as you mostly only gain the extra wound. A terminator might be better off in the unit being an offensive unit (guns+LC) and letting it rely on the standard 2+/5++/5+++ ?

Honestly not sure, but it seems like having a bunch more proteus wounds for the same points might be better as the "sit on a midfield objective" blob.

I may still run an indomitus squad, but it would get combat-squadded and probably put in reserves (or deepstrike if we get that ability again) in some fashion.

Again this is just my current opinion, but I'm biased towards the oldschool vets so I may well be wrong on all this. Hell, I'm even considering the blackstar.

Using old maths (so it's not accurate but close enough for now) for 370 points (a bit more than a full indomitus team admittedly), you can get a proteus team of 5x bolter (with SIA remember)+shield, 4x guys with infernus heavy bolters, and a terminator with assault cannon + power fist. AND a librarian to buff them. Not the best loadout (it was quick and dirty) but it's just something to think about. (I wish frags were good, but the infernus is pretty decent, and you can save a load of points by just taking meltas or plasmas).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stratagems are now in that imgur link:

We get a turn of picking a doctrine, so between that and the warlord shenanigans we could be in devastator for 4 turns lol.

Teleportarium is back! And is basically the same (1CP per unit) though it has a usage limit. Once in small games, twice in medium, thrice in large. Which seems fair, and tbh better than I could have hoped!

2CP at the start of the game, to give the corvus a "you can not target this unless it's the closest target" ability until the end of the first battle round... which might actually be good?

lol... 2CP to give a deathwatch unit a chapter trait FROM ANY OTHER CHAPTER/SUCCESSOR until the end of that turn. Fluffy as heck but dunno if it's good... I love it though.

kill teams with a jump pack guy can fall back and shoot for 1CP, so they did bring that back. Same for a single biker giving fall back and charge.

These stratagems are AWESOME, don’t know how powerful they are but they feel like Deathwatch and that is what matters to me.

So we’re just waiting for Relics realistically right?

So SIA is bad for intercessors. I honestly am not sure if anything in the Fortis team is worth taking. Outriders maybe, but the intercessor tax...

SIA is bad for most weapons in fact.

However....

Incursors and Infiltrators both have rapidfire1 weapons, which when used with SIA don't lose all that much, and could be decent targets.

And Eliminators also have their Instigator Carbine, which is assault 1 and can target characters, but isn't "bolt sniper" so it can take SIA. Not sure it's worth it over a sniper or the las fusil, but ... this makes a spectrus kill team have 3 decent units that can all make use of SIA.

AND special mention goes to Heavy Intercessors. S5 AP-2 D2 heavy bolt rifle gains SIA without losing anything at all. Damage 3 vs terminators, +1 to wound vs monsters, it's all good.

So SIA basically puts a nail in the coffin for Fortis. They get nothing from it really. But it may have some uses.

Edit: Kinda curious what Sterling comes back with once he sees the stratagems. I know his opinion of what GW were going to do with deathwatch was even lower than my own, but some of this stuff is actually decently fun. Still hoping an faq fixes frags and shotguns. (Although... shotguns may actually be ok, now that the unit can fall back and shoot........ or if not ok, then less terrible.)

Fortis seems to be down to either Teleportarium Hellblaster Rapid Fire or a team of Assaults with Biker hoping to fallback and charge into jucier stuff. Heavy Intercessors seem to have replaced 8th's Intercessor role in our army in all regards.

You can teleport in a unit of ATVs, must have learned that fighting Orks.

SIA changing the weapon to Heavy has some promise with the ways to manipulate Devastator Doctrine already mentioned.