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I think the 2CP to pick any chapter tactic strat is clutch as hell, but I need to wrap my brain around it. Situationally it seems VERY useful to set up things like advance/charge, or fallback/shoot or charge or to unbracket a vehicle. It's like the omni-strat. It unlocks SO many possibilities.

Unfortunally it only lasts until the end of your turn, which limits some tactics (maybe it will get a faq to be till your next command phase as seems common.)

 Oaka wrote:
You can teleport in a unit of ATVs, must have learned that fighting Orks.

SIA changing the weapon to Heavy has some promise with the ways to manipulate Devastator Doctrine already mentioned.

That SIA + Devastator thing is... I mean they're only heavy 1, but still, it's an interesting combo. And then the next turn when it goes to tactical/assault, they just fire again with their normal guns and STILL get the -1AP cos they're now not heavy anymore haha.

Brotherhood tactic completely changes how you build your kill teams. Do you go +1 hit power fists, +1 power swords? Do you go hard core heavy shooting with +1 hit dark angels?

It’s so much versatility and options to wrap my head around, I even find myself considering a corvus!

I think first things first is figuring out the character core and just putting the models on the table in front of me to see how things fit together,

Yes, there are so many new combos and scenarios.

Could intercessors with SIA fire twice using the stratagem from codex space marine?

If so, 20 stalker bolt rifle in devastator doctrine could be brutal, with 3 dmg a pop.

Edited: no, they can as a "killteam", for they lose the "intercessor squad keyword", but they can if they are taken as standard intercessors, as the strat says "deatchwatch infantry"

It's 4 CP, though.

Interesting to read over those pages, and i am eager to hear some of the reviews that'll pop up this weekend.

One thing i did notice though that made me roll my eyes.... Is that Heavy Intercessors in the Kill Team still have the wrong weapon options listed as upgrades lol.

Copy and paste boys....copy and paste.

One thing I did discover is that you don’t lose your stratejism when using brotherhood or the vigilance warlord trait. it is perfectly possible to keep rerolls to wound while also getting benefits from blood angels, space wolves, etc.

Damage 5 veteran sgts heavy thunder hammer is the lolz.

Special issue ammo Phobos captains are pretty powerful and could see some use.

Current plan is to take the intercessors kill team with the mandatory 5 outriders and give them the kill troops upgrade.

give them advance and charge from white scars, start in assault doctrine, those 5 outriders will just blender some target.

Niiru wrote:

Edit: Kinda curious what Sterling comes back with once he sees the stratagems. I know his opinion of what GW were going to do with deathwatch was even lower than my own, but some of this stuff is actually decently fun. Still hoping an faq fixes frags and shotguns. (Although... shotguns may actually be ok, now that the unit can fall back and shoot........ or if not ok, then less terrible.)

Overall verdict: "Some Good, Some Bad". Amusingly enough, despite the very mixed bag I think we come out better than we were in 8th in this regard. We basically had +1 wound, Teleportarium, and thats it.

Losing our +1s to wound hurts immensely. Adaptive Tactics being 2cp, once per game *and* gated behind a WM hurts, especially in the context of the new Specialisms. The anti-xenos strats were all nerfed with the exception of the Tau one. My personal biggest gripe is the anti-Ork one being capped at -2 to charge, but that's mostly because my local scene has a lot of Ork players and I got a TON of work out of it for charge denial and general shenaniganery.

Disruptive Launch may be worth keeping a VanVet around for, but I dont see the Black Shield or Biker ability being worth the CP. I personally think it's stupid the amount of abilities and wargear that are getting converted to strats, but that's a blanket thing for 9th and not a Deathwatch specific thing. We'll just have to wear it until more codices come out to continue that trend. Kind of a weird slow burn buff-ish? Dunno, hard to parse that category in an information vacuum.

Teleportarium being more limited hurts, but it's still a huge tactical asset. Twice per 2000 point game still lets us drop in two heavy hitters, and with expanded access to forward deployment and other Deep Strike options (like Reserves) the end result is a wash to a net benefit IMO. Im hopeful this is an indication that the Beacon is still around in some capacity.

Giving a Corvus de-facto 8th edition character protection opens up some play for the flying turtle.

Death to the Alien is absolutely bonkers at 1 CP. Limited by target selection, but a blanket +1A is mechanically absurdly powerful.

Brotherhood of Veterans is unequivocally good, and may be both the fluffiest stratagem in the book but also my pick for single most powerful strat for the Deathwatch. Would have been better if we could pair up on successor rules for a round, but it is what it is. I expect to see a *lot* of use for the Ultra fall back and shoot, Scars zoom and charge, Dark Angels for stand and deliver, or Blood Angels / Tearers for rip and tear in melee. I'll need to double check the wording, but I dont think this will turn off Specialist Kill Teams fully rerolling wounds against their Favored Enemy (since I believe the latter keys off of what you pick for the *army* and not whether or not the *unit* has said CT). - EDIT: Confirmed, Specialists power up if you pick the appropriate target for the Xenos Hunters CT, but has no stipulation about the Kill Team itself still needing said CT.

Bog standard Sergeant Relic strat is I think significantly more helpful for us since Mastercrafted can stack with SIA (and on a combi-weapon too). Likewise the dual WLT strat has more legs for Deathwatch because we have a bunch of really, really good WLTs.

The SIA change...is dumb. Y'all dont need to hear me rant about it.

Good analysis.

There is a lot to like in the new codex, but also many things that still feel half-baked.

5 man squad of eliminators, eradicators and outriders were not really necessary to add flavour to DW.

The removal of SIA from standard intercessors was also not necessary. It could have been "SIA bolt rifle, RF 1" and that would have been cool.

But the psychic discipline, some strats, the bespoke secondaries and the addition of so many new units are indeed great.

Same for the killteam specialities: great idea.

I am eagerly waiting for the goonhammer review, as they are usually very informative

I think SIA is more or less done outside of the following:

1) Heavy Intercessors with Executors that you burn an extra CP to put into Devastator while they are glaring at a vehicle. 10 AP-3 D3 guns should spook transports and even light tanks.

2) Aquila (troops) Deathwatch Veterans. If some chunky blob of daemons comes at you just make the Vets into Crimson Fists. Double hit on 6’s is mathematically identical to +1 to hit, but stacks with it. 20 +1 to-wound shots near a captain will see half that blob disappear. Try this on things without an invul and things get gross.

I hadn't even considered the CF doctrine for hordesweeping (in my defense it's early and I'm not nearly appropriately caffeinated yet). Slap that on a Furor team...good googly moogly.

Okay, so I ran some preliminary numbers on this for shiggles. A fully powered up (Furor rerolls against Favored Enemies, WM full reroll and the CF boost) squad of 7 combiflamers Vets and 3 CML +SB Terminators (this is a squad configuration I'm seriously considering running) will delete on average 75 gaunts, 60+ Boyz or 50-ish Guardsmen. In one shooting volley. Target allocation and selection for the latter will obviously be tricky, but holy goddamn. These numbers increase if you also burn CP for the "all doctrines are active" strat too.

Brotherhood is insane. It enables so many otherwise risky Kill Team builds... deep strike charges, assault teams, just a lot of options. I like it better than the +1 Wound after some thought.

 LunarSol wrote:
Brotherhood is insane. It enables so many otherwise risky Kill Team builds... deep strike charges, assault teams, just a lot of options. I like it better than the +1 Wound after some thought.

Unfortunately due to order of operations you cant use it on a team that drops in the same turn. Has to be declared in the Command Phase.

EDIT: I may be wrong about this due to the specific wording of the strat. It does not appear to require the targeted unit to be on the table, and I cant seem to find the old stipulation that if you're off the table you cant be targeted by abilities or strats (I found it for embarked units but not ones in deep strike). You clearly cant use any abilities from the unit, but you *may* be able to use things on them. Gonna keep digging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crusade bits and bobs via WHC:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/30/deathwatch-new-crusade-rules/

Sterling191 wrote:
A fully powered up (Furor rerolls against Favored Enemies, WM full reroll and the CF boost) squad of 7 combiflamers Vets and 3 CML +SB Terminators (this is a squad configuration I'm seriously considering running) will delete on average 75 gaunts, 60+ Boyz or 50-ish Guardsmen. In one shooting volley. Target allocation and selection for the latter will obviously be tricky, but holy goddamn. These numbers increase if you also burn CP for the "all doctrines are active" strat too.

For feths sake sterling keep your voice down!

Jeez. This is why we can't have nice things!

Say it with me now - "Yeh, the new supplement is ok, but I'd stay as imperial fists if I were you young man."

Niiru wrote:

For feths sake sterling keep your voice down!

Jeez. This is why we can't have nice things!

Say it with me now - "Yeh, the new supplement is ok, but I'd stay as imperial fists if I were you young man."

I mean, the combo costs nearly 500 points and at minimum 2 CP. It damn well needs to do the business.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

For feths sake sterling keep your voice down!

Jeez. This is why we can't have nice things!

Say it with me now - "Yeh, the new supplement is ok, but I'd stay as imperial fists if I were you young man."

I mean, the combo costs nearly 500 points and at minimum 2 CP. It damn well needs to do the business.

Lol I know, but you get what I'm saying.

Though the watchmaster isn't really a 'sunk cost' for it, as you need one anyway and he's multi-purpose. I'd even include a librarian in there as well now as a must-take. The only real cost is in the squad, which is about 350 points? (off top of my head). For 10 guys with a lot of firepower and Obsec. (2CP isn't even that bad for a heavy hitter wombo combo, compared to others).

I'm even wondering what I would put in a Blackstar now, as it may actually be a valid transport.

Rule #1. You cannot use chapter tactic of other chapter unless one member of squad has appropriate shoulder pad actually modeled!

 bullyboy wrote:
Rule #1. You cannot use chapter tactic of other chapter unless one member of squad has appropriate shoulder pad actually modeled!

Agreed. I think the same for the Warlord, if you take another factions trait. (I'm glad the rules actually specify that haha.)

Bleh. Like I get it for the Warlord, but there's no dumber gotcha than going to play a strat and being denied because the model who happened to have that pad was removed as a casualty.

 LunarSol wrote:
Bleh. Like I get it for the Warlord, but there's no dumber gotcha than going to play a strat and being denied because the model who happened to have that pad was removed as a casualty.

Little tongue in cheek. Just a thematic thing I'll do in friendly games, I like playing that way.

 LunarSol wrote:
Bleh. Like I get it for the Warlord, but there's no dumber gotcha than going to play a strat and being denied because the model who happened to have that pad was removed as a casualty.

(....I mean, I'm pretty sure we are mostly joking... plus I'd find it more than acceptable as long as that squad -orginally- had the right guy in it. Maybe he taught his squadmates his chapter tactics.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Bleh. Like I get it for the Warlord, but there's no dumber gotcha than going to play a strat and being denied because the model who happened to have that pad was removed as a casualty.

Little tongue in cheek. Just a thematic thing I'll do in friendly games, I like playing that way.

^

 Leth wrote:

I think first things first is figuring out the character core and just putting the models on the table in front of me to see how things fit together,

Right now I'm probably going with a Watch Master and Natorian (probably not optimal but he's cool). Relics may change that up and I'll need to see if Natorian would be better shifted to an Apothecary.

Niiru wrote:

Though the watchmaster isn't really a 'sunk cost' for it, as you need one anyway and he's multi-purpose. I'd even include a librarian in there as well now as a must-take. The only real cost is in the squad, which is about 350 points? (off top of my head). For 10 guys with a lot of firepower and Obsec. (2CP isn't even that bad for a heavy hitter wombo combo, compared to others).

My big issue with the WM right now is that he's loadout locked, and (more importantly) cant take a jump pack. I generally didnt run one in 8th for the same reason, but with the hard lock on Adaptive Tactics I may need to re-evaluate.

 LunarSol wrote:

Right now I'm probably going with a Watch Master and Natorian (probably not optimal but he's cool). Relics may change that up and I'll need to see if Natorian would be better shifted to an Apothecary.

Natorian I can see doing some work with offensive spells thanks to his +1, but being named means he's locked in for WLTs, cant upgrade to a Chief and cant take a relic. I think a standard libby is the better play if you're looking for a buff vector.

 Leth wrote:
Damage 5 veteran sgts heavy thunder hammer is the lolz.

How do you get up on Damage 5 for a single Weapon/Attack?

 LunarSol wrote:

 Leth wrote:

I think first things first is figuring out the character core and just putting the models on the table in front of me to see how things fit together,

Right now I'm probably going with a Watch Master and Natorian (probably not optimal but he's cool). Relics may change that up and I'll need to see if Natorian would be better shifted to an Apothecary.

I think a librarian might be an auto-take right now. I'd love to take two tbh but not sure that'll be possible. Natorian is a pretty standard guy, who happens to be better at the damage-spells (he also has better WS and a decentish weapon). So I don't think he's a bad choice.

However as you say, a good relic for a librarian might swing things heavily against him (as he can't take relics).

Apothecary is possibly worth it too though, as our guys are gonna be expensive. It's a tough call for sure. Finding points for everything is gonna be tricky.

Pyrosphere wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Damage 5 veteran sgts heavy thunder hammer is the lolz.

How do you get up on Damage 5 for a single Weapon/Attack?

You can mastercraft the hammer with the Sergeant specific stratagem (they get to take a piece of Special Issue Warger relic)

Niiru wrote:

Apothecary is possibly worth it too though, as our guys are gonna be expensive. It's a tough call for sure. Finding points for everything is gonna be tricky.

For super-competitive play I expect to see Chief Apothecaries everywhere. They basically mean that if any model in a Kill Team has wounds left at the end of a turn, they're going back to full health. And the freebie revive is stellar for something like the "Totally Not Blightlord Terminators, Honest!" Indomitor teams (or Terminators for that matter).

Competitive play will see a lot of "command upgrades".

The chief apothecary is now almost mandatory, and possibly the chief librarian as well.

The +1 to cast fnp seems now too good to pass.

What are your thoughts about the chaplain? I don't think we have seen anything about a specific DW litany, but the others are still good

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

What are your thoughts about the chaplain? I don't think we have seen anything about a specific DW litany, but the others are still good

Rock solid support character, but tends to skew towards more melee oriented lists. The shooting buffs they can hand out are okay, but frankly we a ton of other sources to power up shooting, and he's one of the few that can help with unit delivery into assault. Even without a DW specific Litany they're well worth considering.

Sterling191 wrote:

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

What are your thoughts about the chaplain? I don't think we have seen anything about a specific DW litany, but the others are still good

Rock solid support character, but tends to skew towards more melee oriented lists. The shooting buffs they can hand out are okay, but frankly we a ton of other sources to power up shooting, and he's one of the few that can help with unit delivery into assault. Even without a DW specific Litany they're well worth considering.

Are chaplains still HQ? (mind went blank, I think apothecary is elite)

At least deathwatch filling a battallion is not as much of a hardship as most other armies, as our troops are actually worthwhile (I would probably be bringing 2x proteus and 1x spectrus in every game minimum) so 3x HQ is feasible without having to take multiple vanguard/spearhead detachments to avoid troops tax. Means we get the full amount of CP as well.

I wonder which offers the best overall to DW, librarian or chaplain. Or whether taking both is required.

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:


The +1 to cast fnp seems now too good to pass.

+25 points and a Relic seems pretty pricey for that. Good, but I'm not convinced its worth it; particularly with all of our Specialisms.

Niiru wrote:

Are chaplains still HQ? (mind went blank, I think apothecary is elite)

Chappys are HQs. Apothecaries, Ancients and Champions are Elites.

Niiru wrote:

At least deathwatch filling a battallion is not as much of a hardship as most other armies, as our troops are actually worthwhile (I would probably be bringing 2x proteus and 1x spectrus in every game minimum) so 3x HQ is feasible without having to take multiple vanguard/spearhead detachments to avoid troops tax. Means we get the full amount of CP as well.

My intial list building is coalescing around a pair of patrols because of the Captain restrictions. But I can definitely see single Battalion being the way to go for a lot of people precisely because we have the best damn troops in the game.

Niiru wrote:

I wonder which offers the best overall to DW, librarian or chaplain. Or whether taking both is required.

It's really going to come down to your list. Both are viable, but offer different supporting options that lend themselves to different styles of play. The fact that its a hard choice is a fundamentally good thing IMO, and means the internal balance is headed the right direction (at least with respect to the discussion of these specific characters).