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So here's another thing to remember for SIA -

People are saying that it's useless, even on RF1 weapons, cos you're getting half as many shots within 12" cos you're switching to Heavy1.

However, Infiltrators and Incursors also carry a pistol, which they don't normally get to fire with their rifle... but that will also become Heavy1, so you can fire both your pistol and your rifle, and get 2 shots within 12" with SIA.

Possibly not worth it still, but GW may one day tweak the rule to be 1CP, or something else. You never know.

So what are people thinking for Proteus? The other teams seem to have pretty obvious options, but Proteus is still pretty wide open. I was liking Stalkers/Infernus/Cyclone Terminators, but that price bump is a little iffy. Anything that seems worth dropping off in the Blackstar?

 LunarSol wrote:
So what are people thinking for Proteus? The other teams seem to have pretty obvious options, but Proteus is still pretty wide open. I was liking Stalkers/Infernus/Cyclone Terminators, but that price bump is a little iffy. Anything that seems worth dropping off in the Blackstar?

Proteus teams in general are still pretty flexible, but mostly down to their loadout, not their model composition anymore. A frontline team can spring for a VanVet and things like Combi-Flamers (I really do think they're going to be the new go-to for a lot of situations now the stormbolters are out) and not have to worry about getting tied up. I do still think there's a place for the Termi/VV/Vet configuration, with the VanVet still getting a Jump Pack to help lead out charges (if done right it can cut 2-4 inches off a charge, which is super helpful). Alternatively, big game hunting squads can opt for 5ppm Plasma or Melta. That's cheaper than Tac marines.

At 5ppm I think the Stalkers are a poor choice. Basic boltguns double tapping with SIA and bolter discipline from the back/midfield do the job just as well against most targets, and can hunker down with a shield for the same cost. CML terminators are I think still extremely aggressively costed for what they can do (53ppm for 2 missiles, a Storm Bolter and a power weapon). I'm looking to take a bunch if I can make it work.

The capacity to fully protect a Blackstar with a screen and 2 CP opens up some very interesting options. The first thing that comes to mind is a pair of VanVet teams (that dont need jump packs now), but im certain there are other choices that can do serious work. Shoot it up the table, screen it out with a few Spectrus lads (helpfully parked out of LoS), debark T2 and do the stabby stab.


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Niiru wrote:

Possibly not worth it still, but GW may one day tweak the rule to be 1CP, or something else. You never know.

If it were 1 CP and didnt impart the Heavy type, there'd possibly be a place for it. But the combination of a 2CP cost, the reduction in shot volume and the accuracy malus imposed makes it a niche play at best with a huge opportunity cost.

Sterling191 wrote:
But the combination of a 2CP cost, the reduction in shot volume and the accuracy malus imposed makes it a niche play at best with a huge opportunity cost.

Ahh but that's what I'm saying, in a lot of cases there is no shot penalty, as your pistol suddenly becomes usable (when it wasn't before) and primaris pistols are basically bolters without the rapid fire.

I totally agree it's niche, and you'd never build a spectrus team around it, but it's worth keeping in mind I think as there will be occasions where it might be enough to tip the balance. The only real hindrance is that 2CP is a lot.

I'm not even sure 2CP is worth spending on the Heavy Executor, which is by far the best weapon to use it on I think. But I'm tempted to take an indomitus team. Not even sure what I would have in it... there's a temptation to take 10x heavy executors in a blob and keep it as a backfield unit.

Edit: Didn't notice but Heavy Ints also have pistols, so they actually gain shots lol. Only S4 AP0 but it's interesting. They may be the only unit where its worth using the strat vs certain enemies.

Niiru wrote:


Ahh but that's what I'm saying, in a lot of cases there is no shot penalty, as your pistol suddenly becomes usable (when it wasn't before) and primaris pistols are basically bolters without the rapid fire.

I totally agree it's niche, and you'd never build a spectrus team around it, but it's worth keeping in mind I think as there will be occasions where it might be enough to tip the balance. The only real hindrance is that 2CP is a lot.

I'm not even sure 2CP is worth spending on the Heavy Executor, which is by far the best weapon to use it on I think. But I'm tempted to take an indomitus team. Not even sure what I would have in it... there's a temptation to take 10x heavy executors in a blob and keep it as a backfield unit.

Edit: Didn't notice but Heavy Ints also have pistols, so they actually gain shots lol. Only S4 AP0 but it's interesting. They may be the only unit where its worth using the strat vs certain enemies.

I understand the argument being made here, but planning to be within 12" of a target on units that have zero melee profile is frankly just asking for trouble. Executor Heavy Intercessors are the only place I'd ever consider using this strat.

Also never, ever plan on being stationary in 9th. Maneuver is a critical part of the game, and having to give it up to not be hitting at a -1 (or spend even more CP to count as stationary, which is far more valuable elsewhere) is part of the opportunity cost that I spoke about.

Pyrosphere wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Damage 5 veteran sgts heavy thunder hammer is the lolz.

How do you get up on Damage 5 for a single Weapon/Attack?

One SGT in the army can get mastercrafted. Heavy thunder hammers are damage 4 base. So master crafted heavy is damage 5.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:


Ahh but that's what I'm saying, in a lot of cases there is no shot penalty, as your pistol suddenly becomes usable (when it wasn't before) and primaris pistols are basically bolters without the rapid fire.

I totally agree it's niche, and you'd never build a spectrus team around it, but it's worth keeping in mind I think as there will be occasions where it might be enough to tip the balance. The only real hindrance is that 2CP is a lot.

I'm not even sure 2CP is worth spending on the Heavy Executor, which is by far the best weapon to use it on I think. But I'm tempted to take an indomitus team. Not even sure what I would have in it... there's a temptation to take 10x heavy executors in a blob and keep it as a backfield unit.

Edit: Didn't notice but Heavy Ints also have pistols, so they actually gain shots lol. Only S4 AP0 but it's interesting. They may be the only unit where its worth using the strat vs certain enemies.

I understand the argument being made here, but planning to be within 12" of a target on units that have zero melee profile is frankly just asking for trouble. Executor Heavy Intercessors are the only place I'd ever consider using this strat.

Also never, ever plan on being stationary in 9th. Maneuver is a critical part of the game, and having to give it up to not be hitting at a -1 (or spend even more CP to count as stationary, which is far more valuable elsewhere) is part of the opportunity cost that I spoke about.

Very true, just trying to find the niche uses for the tools we have.

Indomitus team is likely the only one though. Even a mix of heavy bolters and eradicators could find use for it, as the eradicators also have pistols. I think if it drops to 1CP it'll be decent, but 2CP is just... asking a lot.

Edit: Do we have a standard "take a second relic" stratagem? I didn't notice it. I know there's one for sergeants but that's just the pseudo-relic upgrade list. I know a warlord can take 2 relics, but I mean the ability to take a second relic on a non-warlord. Maybe its a marine-codex strat?

Niiru wrote:
[
Very true, just trying to find the niche uses for the tools we have.

Realistically I think it's best use is as a close in deterrent for units with single shot weapons who also have pistols, or an Executor volley from an Indomitor team aiming at its Favored Enemy. The latter means forgoing Eradicators though, which from a flavor perspective I completely understand, but from a competitive efficiency standpoint is just...bleh.


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Niiru wrote:

Edit: Do we have a standard "take a second relic" stratagem? I didn't notice it. I know there's one for sergeants but that's just the pseudo-relic upgrade list. I know a warlord can take 2 relics, but I mean the ability to take a second relic on a non-warlord. Maybe its a marine-codex strat?

We do, it's in the prime Marine codex. Can be used up to two times. Ditto for extra WLTs.

I have 20 painted intercessors that I would like to use (maybe not all of them, but at least some).

What would be a good use for them?

option 1: fortis killteam (+hellblasters? or alone with stalkers?)

option 2: upgrade to veteran intercessors (can we make use of them, maybe via teleportarium?)

option 3: invest in outriders (but I much prefer going the spectrus KT way, and then moving to indomitor KT as to be able to field inceptors and aggressors)

Suggestions?

Proxy as Heavy Intercessors until they're released?

sterling wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Edit: Do we have a standard "take a second relic" stratagem? I didn't notice it. I know there's one for sergeants but that's just the pseudo-relic upgrade list. I know a warlord can take 2 relics, but I mean the ability to take a second relic on a non-warlord. Maybe its a marine-codex strat?

We do, it's in the prime Marine codex. Can be used up to two times. Ditto for extra WLTs.

I can't check, so sorry to question it, but with my previous experience of how GW write their stratagems and rules sometimes -

Does the relic stratagem specify "can take an extra relic from the codex marines relics list" (and so limit our options to the CM codex relics) or does it say "can take an extra relic from ones available to them" (and so can take an extra deathwatch relic).

If you see what I mean?

Though obviously at this stage we don't even know if DW have any relics worth taking.

 LunarSol wrote:
Proxy as Heavy Intercessors until they're released?

That is another option, yes. But I am a slow painter, and the prospect of replacing all my troops with HI is not very attractive from a modelling standpoint. But I agree that would be the ideal competitive solution.

 SatanEatSeitan wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Proxy as Heavy Intercessors until they're released?

That is another option, yes. But I am a slow painter, and the prospect of replacing all my troops with HI is not very attractive from a modelling standpoint. But I agree that would be the ideal competitive solution.

Standard intercessors are the worst killteam for us (in my very limited and unprofessional opinion).

And taking intercessors without using them as a tax for killteam buffs is probably even worse.

I don't even know if veteran ints are worthwhile (are they still a thing? I need to get the new book really) as they won't have the killteam buffs.

I think their best use is to also unlock some outriders, but I'm not yet convinced outriders are good enough for us, as we already have a bunch of cool anti-infantry ability. As ever our issue is anti-vehicle, and the Fortis team doesn't help with that much....

Hellblasters, maybe? They're the one unit I'm tempted by from Fortis, but I dunno if it's worth the points vs taking veterans with plasma/melta or taking heavy ints and eradicators.

I understand your pain in wanting to use the models you have though. Could you not convert them? I would probably convert the models and run them as veterans (the statline is now identical I think?)

Sterling191 wrote:

At 5ppm I think the Stalkers are a poor choice. Basic boltguns double tapping with SIA and bolter discipline from the back/midfield do the job just as well against most targets, and can hunker down with a shield for the same cost. CML terminators are I think still extremely aggressively costed for what they can do (53ppm for 2 missiles, a Storm Bolter and a power weapon). I'm looking to take a bunch if I can make it work..

I need to remember Bolter Discipline. I kind of trained it out of myself.

I'm considering what stuff I'd try and take outside of killteams (though an all-killteam army may well be viable).

Corvus may actually be an option now.

I'm wondering if the Invictor has a place, or whether standard dreads would be a better option.

I am not sure any tanks really work for us.

ATVs though?

 LunarSol wrote:

I need to remember Bolter Discipline. I kind of trained it out of myself.

Entirely fair. We spent the entirety of 8th not getting to use it.

Niiru wrote:



I can't check, so sorry to question it, but with my previous experience of how GW write their stratagems and rules sometimes -

Does the relic stratagem specify "can take an extra relic from the codex marines relics list" (and so limit our options to the CM codex relics) or does it say "can take an extra relic from ones available to them" (and so can take an extra deathwatch relic).

If you see what I mean?

Though obviously at this stage we don't even know if DW have any relics worth taking.

I understand completely, and its an entirely reasonable concern to check on. The codex strat specifies a "Chapter Relic", which all prime codex relics are considered to be. We dont have the wording from the new Supplement yet, however the Indices allow a 1:1 swap of Supplement Relics for Chapter Relics so I dont expect it will be an issue. I'm quoting from the SW Index here:

If your army is led by a Space Wolves Warlord, you can, when mustering your army, give one of the following Relics of the Fang to a Space Wolves Character model in your army instead of giving them a Relic from Codex: Space Marines. These are considered to be Chapter Relics for all rules purposes..

The rules implication is that there is permission to take a Supplement relic in the place of a Codex relic whenever one could legally take a Codex relic.

Sterling191 wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

I need to remember Bolter Discipline. I kind of trained it out of myself.

Entirely fair. We spent the entirety of 8th not getting to use it.

Niiru wrote:



I can't check, so sorry to question it, but with my previous experience of how GW write their stratagems and rules sometimes -

Does the relic stratagem specify "can take an extra relic from the codex marines relics list" (and so limit our options to the CM codex relics) or does it say "can take an extra relic from ones available to them" (and so can take an extra deathwatch relic).

If you see what I mean?

Though obviously at this stage we don't even know if DW have any relics worth taking.

I understand completely, and its an entirely reasonable concern to check on. The codex strat specifies a "Chapter Relic", which all prime codex relics are considered to be. We dont have the wording from the new Supplement yet, however the Indices allow a 1:1 swap of Supplement Relics for Chapter Relics so I dont expect it will be an issue. I'm quoting from the SW Index here:

If your army is led by a Space Wolves Warlord, you can, when mustering your army, give one of the following Relics of the Fang to a Space Wolves Character model in your army instead of giving them a Relic from Codex: Space Marines. These are considered to be Chapter Relics for all rules purposes..

The rules implication is that there is permission to take a Supplement relic in the place of a Codex relic whenever one could legally take a Codex relic.

Ok, thats valid then, something to look out for when we have the full wordings etc. Not long to wait before we see relics etc.

Niiru wrote:
I'm considering what stuff I'd try and take outside of killteams (though an all-killteam army may well be viable).

Corvus may actually be an option now.

I'm wondering if the Invictor has a place, or whether standard dreads would be a better option.

I am not sure any tanks really work for us.

ATVs though?

Now we're getting into the stuff we have to talk about like we're no longer a separate codex. I don't think tanks really work for anyone right now. I do think we'll want some Dreadnoughts or an Invictor or something, but until we see how the Contemptor/etc comes out of the FW book its hard to say what our best option will be. I think with Eradicators we don't NEED any dedicated anti-tank, but I think the coffins are solid regardless. Corvus probably isn't optional but might be good enough to not be a massive detriment to take anymore and well worth the coolness factor.

ATVs probably aren't going to last....

I've been finding Codex Contemptors with multimelta to be well worth their weight at only 150pts. I used to run Ven Dreads with lascannons and fists as my heavy hitters, but now they're almost equal cost.
The Contemptors are faster, stronger (wounding T7 on 2+), and critically have a 5++ invuln.
Teleporting a couple of those suckers into multimelta range could prove to be pretty effective.

 LunarSol wrote:

Now we're getting into the stuff we have to talk about like we're no longer a separate codex. I don't think tanks really work for anyone right now. I do think we'll want some Dreadnoughts or an Invictor or something, but until we see how the Contemptor/etc comes out of the FW book its hard to say what our best option will be. I think with Eradicators we don't NEED any dedicated anti-tank, but I think the coffins are solid regardless. Corvus probably isn't optional but might be good enough to not be a massive detriment to take anymore and well worth the coolness factor.

ATVs probably aren't going to last....

ATVs are objectively good because theyre fast, cheap, durable for their cost, and kick out a ton of firepower. Even without the Apothecary heal/rez they're absurdly efficient for their points. For 80 points they put out as much dakka as an Intercessor squad. I *really* do wish we could take standalone Attack Bikes, but that's a rant for another day.

In terms of armored support, the Redemptor is at the top of the list, specifically the plasma variant. It's pretty reasonably costed (185 points with the rocket pod, which you should absolutely take if you can spare the 5 points), it's quite resilient with the flat -1 damage at all times, it's Core so can interact with auras, it's dangerous in both melee and at range with its upgraded fist, and its ranged armament is capable of dealing with several different kinds of targets efficiently. It can also stand in as a buff vector thanks to Wisdom of the Ancients.

 McGibs wrote:
I've been finding Codex Contemptors with multimelta to be well worth their weight at only 150pts. I used to run Ven Dreads with lascannons and fists as my heavy hitters, but now they're almost equal cost.
The Contemptors are faster, stronger (wounding T7 on 2+), and critically have a 5++ invuln.
Teleporting a couple of those suckers into multimelta range could prove to be pretty effective.

The invuln isnt that big of a concern anymore thanks to Psychic Fortress, which we're very likely to be taking. We should know tomorrow how the Dreadnought situation works itself out with the NDA drop on the FW index (I know not precisely the unit you're talking about here but it's the last piece of the puzzle we dont have).

I'm referring to the basic Contemptor in the Marine codex (the plastic Calth one) that can only take a multimelta or assault cannon and fist.

I personally like the built in 5++ because I like the reliability it affords. It's active turn 1, isnt subject to bad cast or deny rolls, and most importantly, doesnt force me to castle around an aura. I like to play my dreads aggressively and independently and keep the support characters around infantry.

Leaked info looks great overall - no surprises with SIA and no extra wargear for primaris, but everything else looks spot on.

Stand outs for me:
DW are now fantastic allies for other marines, a specialist team in a patrol is likely better than keeping super doctrines. 395 points all in for pergatus/spectrus with 5 snipers and shrouded/soul sight phobos libby in a self contained patrol seems like an absolute steal - rerolling everything and practically untouchable.

Am expecting either some datasheet changes in the unleaked parts, or soon to be FAQ's reigning in the new melee supremacy of DW. Centurians (possibly even 12 of them if no datasheet changes?!) in untouchable blackstars or teleportarium with a chaplain could be ravenguard infiltration all over again.

Natorian and something cheap to screen him in a blackstar looks really fun, jump out turn 2, do a bombing run with the blackstar, then psychic cleanse/smite away. Should be able to generate a modest number of mortal wounds quite reliably. Libby's in general look great, 3 solid disciplines now.

Melee supremacy? DW have few melee tricks other than spending CP to replicate BA or SW. Unless the new meta becomes Heavy Thunder Hammer spammed Vanguard Vets, of course, but that doesn’t feel likely.

I dont expect ATVs to be nerfed because they are not that good. People are really over estimating the apoth regen. If your ATV unit is near your apoth then you are wasting pretty much everything you are paying for. Might as well just get another unit of eradicators. Just because you dont like a model, doesnt mean it is going to be errated to be bad.

Feel like our vets can be a pretty solid melee threat, especially since they are Ob sec. Sad thing is the unit would probably feel like worse bladeguard, but they are broken right now so.

 Leth wrote:
I dont expect ATVs to be nerfed because they are not that good. People are really over estimating the apoth regen. If your ATV unit is near your apoth then you are wasting pretty much everything you are paying for. Might as well just get another unit of eradicators. Just because you dont like a model, doesnt mean it is going to be errated to be bad.

Feel like our vets can be a pretty solid melee threat, especially since they are Ob sec. Sad thing is the unit would probably feel like worse bladeguard, but they are broken right now so.

I mean... bladeguard are great, sure. But they're limited to a unit of 3 (unless this changed?), and no obsec.

For the same points as 3 bladeguard, you can get 4 veterans with shields and lightning claws.

No obsec vs Obsec
9 wounds vs 8 wounds (pretty close)
9 attacks vs 12 attacks
Damage 2 vs Damage 1
But the Vets get to reroll all failed wounds, so it's probably pretty close in overall damage dealt. Depending on targets of course. I should try and do the maths, but I'm so tired....

Bladeguard are better body for body sure, but I think it's not too bad. I didn't even count the Vet sergeant as an option which skews the maths a bit more. I honestly don't think I'd take bladeguard, as it would feel like those points could be better spend on a vet squad. Though I do like the bladeguard models. May just use them as shield vets.

Blade guard cap at 6 and getting obsec is easy since it’s a warlord trait.

Reroll ones they both get, reroll wounds is only if they spend the points.

Preview vids starting to pop up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1npCkz4Px0

Quite brief but includes relics - mostly reworks of old ones. Tome of Ectoclades looks good, single use but stronger than before.

Okay, relics appear to be a mixed bag again, but the good ones are very good. Running down the ones we havent seen below:

Beacon is mostly the same, but has a stipulation that it cant be activated the same turn that the bearer drops in from reinforcements. Still super clutch to yoink a kill team across the table to a jump character. Near auto-take as far as I'm concerned.

The Aegis is an always on (yay!) aura of 5++ for Characters and Core models within 6" of the bearer. Flat buff, doesnt keep you from moving and another vector to get invulns on things that couldnt before. More situational than the Beacon, but a super solid choice.

Osseus Key and Thief of Secrets are still pretty bad.

The Tome...hoo boy the Tome. I can see some serious mixed feelings about this one. It's extremely powerful, but very limited. Very matchup dependent and situational, but when you can deploy it against something your opponent has built around, it'll bring the hurt.

Spear of the First Vigil is...okay? Gives the WM back SIA and a better melee profile. Likely not worth the slot for Matched Play, but a solid pick for a Crusade game where everything can be toting WLTs and Relics.

Soul Fortress is interesting. Ignoring maluses to cast can potentially be very powerful, and extending the +1 to Deny to full range can be quite good. I can see this one showing up on some Libbys that we're certain to see in DW lists.

Banebolts...took a serious nerf. Limiting to one shot is pretty bleh, but I can see some combos on a Sergeant toting a Stalker boltgun (as written it doesnt preclude a combination with SIA). Probably not worth the CP to add.

The Auspicator is niche, but suuuuuuper good. Toting around a Velocity Tracker aura for Core units against Eldar armies (as an example, it works against anything with Fly) is choice.

Artificer Bolt Cache - just give it to a Phobos Captain. You'll thank me later.

Eye of Abiding...I really dont know what to think about this one. It wants to go on a character with high RoF weapons...but none of the loadouts I can think of pack enough shots to make the "ignore invulns on 6s to wound (which it appears they hilariously typod) worth the relic slot.

I like the bane bolts on a Phobos captain since it’s main weakness is a lack of str 5 or 6 he can now much more reliably drop a gravis model or put the hurt on a character.

I am mixed on watch masters because I want to make them a damage dealer, but I need them to be buffin . I do like that the spear is rapid fire 2 SIA -1 damage 2.

Anyone know if the aegis dominos requires a stormshield still? If not that opens up some options for it to be on other models.

 Leth wrote:

Anyone know if the aegis dominos requires a stormshield still? If not that opens up some options for it to be on other models.

Storm Shield, Relic Shield or Combat Shield. The latter is the really interesting one for me, as it means you can pull some shenanigans like slotting in a cheap Champion for rerolls to charge and an invuln bubble.


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GOOD NEWS EVERYONE!!!!

They fixed the Teleport Homer! Zippity Proteus Teams (and Terminator squads if that's your thing) are back on the menu. For those unaware of what im talking about, the Index had a keyword restriction that meant Kill Teams could not utilize said teleport homer. That restriction is gone in the supplement.