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Vehicles are only a real issue if you fail to mount enough volume dakka. The DW have really easy access to Assault Cannons and have -AP basic weapons, so mostly they're off to a fine start against most vehicles, You just need to have at least some toys on hand to deal with T8 (although ACs aren't bad at that either if you have enough and we're not talking a 2+ save). Volume of fire is where it's at for 8th.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
Seems to me not having a JP in a Kill Team is missing out. Once those 3 AC termies get locked into melee, they are simply a point sink. Being able to Fall Back and then still Shoot is quite powerful.
I prefer more specialized teams which work in tandem, so a "shooty" team with:
Sgt, 4 Frags, 1 VV, 2 Termies AC, and a Watch Captain in one Coruvs This allows them to land, shoot at penalty, take overwatch, and then fall back out of combat the next round to shoot again.
Sgt, 1 BS, 3 BP/PA, 1 Bike w. PA, in a Corvus to land behind the shooty squad, BS allows counter charge, bike allows to fall back and still charge again next turn. Oh, and filling out the Corvus with Inquistor and Acoloytes for some hitty, wound sucking goodness in the area...
Lastly, a Dev Type squad, LasCannons, Termie with AC, or even Cyclones, then depending on points, squeeze in an Assassin or two...
Three DW deployments (2 Corvus, 1 Dev team), 1-2 assassins deepstrike deployments
So turn one move up Corvus in support of one another, Devs have been placed with best LOS area in mind. Corvus hopefully were manuevered in a way that took them over at least one enemy unit to be bombed, target threats in your priority order. Get them to survive to turn 2... Charging units which cannot fallback for free and suck in melee (most armour is an idea, but if they don't fallback, you won't be able to disembark)
Turn 2, drop off the troops, shooty, shooty, risk a charge if you like, their turn Overwatch will thin their charge, you get a counter charge.
Turn 3, you get to fallback out of melee, rinse and repeat turn 2 basically.
Weaknesses:
Objective based missions, you will be hard pressed to get on enough objectives.
Your Devs are left out flapping on their own, no real DS bubble, no real "funnelers".
You have to run that fine line with your Corvus of getting them into a position that hopefully allows them to bomb each turn, and if they still have passengers ends them up at a point which can't be charged by the enemy and yet will be outside disembark mins and reasonably within charge range,
Interesting to see the diversity in everyone's list I've played against a plasma heavy blood ravens list and ad-mech. Even though there was some bad rolling with the blood ravens player Deathwatch prevailed. Those lists weren't final and I'm slowing getting gist of how I want to build future lists and what to invest in. A list I've been debating about in my opinion is pretty nasty, but I'd love to hear your guy's opinions.
2k list 7CP:
Battalion Detatchment-
HQ-
2x Watch Masters-260
Troop:
1st Kill Team- 287
Watch Sergeant- dual claws
Black Shield- dual claws
Veteran with boltgun and power sword
Veteran with power maul and stormshield
Veteran w/ frag cannon
Terminator with power sword and storm bolter
Vanguard Vet w/ dual claws
Biker w/ power axe and twin boltgun
2nd Kill Team- 342
Watch Sergeant w/ boltgun and stormshield
Biker w/ twin boltgun
Terminator w/ assault cannon and power maul
4 veterans w/ frag cannons
3rd Kill Team- 224
Black Shield w/ dual claws
Watch Sergeant w/ dual claws
3x Veterans w/ power swords and boltguns
Vanguard Vet w/ heavy thunderhammer
Biker w/ power sword and twin boltgun
4th Kill Team- 115
Black Shield w/ boltgun and power sword
Watch Sergeant w/ boltgun and power sword
3x Veterans w/ boltgun and power sword
DT- Razorback- 84
-storm bolter/ twin heavy bolter
Air Wing Detatchment- All 3 Corvus are the same
Corvus Blackstar x3- 687
-2x Blackstar Rocket Launchers, Hurricane Bolter, and Twin Assault Cannon
The 4th kill team is in the Razorback just camping back objs. while the Watch Masters hop in with 2nd and 3rd Kill Teams that are with the 1st in the Blackstars that rush down the board and try to cause havoc
Turn 2- All Blackstars disembark their kill teams and stay in hover mode. The goal is for all models keep within 6' of the rerolls and if there's blobs the Blackstars moving over them for the mortal wounds. Unload a gak ton of shots and charge the remainder, try and lock up vehicles with the frag cannons to avoid one set of shots on them and just keep clearing people out.
So I have been reading this thread closely, and I see the benefits of having all the varied units in the KT's, but man the point sink is huge! I ran a few games this last weekend with this list below against a Nids player that had overwhelming numbers against me. One list was heavy with the genestealers and another was more focused on big baddies with tons of wounds.
Both games ended with me having less than 5 models on the board. I won 1 and he won 1. To be fair, the one I won was because we did maelstrom objectives and the cards just played right into what I could achieve. First game he won by 1 VP and 2nd game I won by 1 VP and I was actually down by 5 or 6 around turn 4, so it was a come back.
I took artemis, and I know a watch master is just better. I took him cause I have his model and I wanted to give him a try. The grenade is nice though.
Couple of take aways: Coteaz was a boss. The Frag Cannons overwatch is amazing. Acolytes are hilariously awful and resilient at the same time. The heavy 12 twin assault cannons were a let down. Nids seem pretty dang powerful and well priced for the amount of threat that can field.
Would love some feedback!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/28 15:25:01
"It's like the 12 days of Christmas...except its the 12 days of Death" Ian Christe
So I have been reading this thread closely, and I see the benefits of having all the varied units in the KT's, but man the point sink is huge! I ran a few games this last weekend with this list below against a Nids player that had overwhelming numbers against me. One list was heavy with the genestealers and another was more focused on big baddies with tons of wounds.
Both games ended with me having less than 5 models on the board. I won 1 and he won 1. To be fair, the one I won was because we did maelstrom objectives and the cards just played right into what I could achieve. First game he won by 1 VP and 2nd game I won by 1 VP and I was actually down by 5 or 6 around turn 4, so it was a come back.
I took artemis, and I know a watch master is just better. I took him cause I have his model and I wanted to give him a try. The grenade is nice though.
Couple of take aways: Coteaz was a boss. The Frag Cannons overwatch is amazing. Acolytes are hilariously awful and resilient at the same time. The heavy 12 twin assault cannons were a let down. Nids seem pretty dang powerful and well priced for the amount of threat that can field.
Would love some feedback!
Deathwatch are going to be outnumbered by just about any army using troops - Daemons, Orks, Nids, Guard and even the Space Wolves can put down nearly three models to every Veteran.
I've found the initiative is a wonderful thing to have, shooting first, being first into rapid fire range. Infantry is my first target, dropping their numbers as quickly as possible to "level" the playing field.
I'd swap the Razorbacks out for Rhinos with Hunter Killer Missiles and extra Storm Bolters.
Use any left over points to put a Terminator in the Kill Team using the Corvus Blackstar.
The Bikes drop a Homing Beacon that any unit containing a Terminator can make use of to teleport back into your deployment zone either to rally or enabling yourself to be more offensive then zap back in time to snag objectives.
I can't offer much more than that without watching you play but it sounds like your opponent had a hard time pinning you down in any way so anything that adds to your mobility options would aid you pretty good.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Hm so I think shotguns actually are pretty solid. They can dish out quite a few wounds to hordes (much more than regular boltguns), and can pop terminators pretty decently with the xenopurge rounds.
I'm guessing in general Deathwatch will need some external assistance. Like a knight, or some imperial guard. Not sure yet...
from what i observed and seen for the competitive space marine lists, people run a bunch of razorbacks and las-preds.
think a mirror list might work?
I m thinking like 5 las-razorbacks with watch master standing around for turn 1 boost. 1 corvus with dedicated kill team dropping something behind enemy line and doing damage.
In addition with 4 kill team with similar build and general purpose loadout. 1 kill team for dedicated CC.
fr3ddy wrote: anyone here running competitive deathwatch?
from what i observed and seen for the competitive space marine lists, people run a bunch of razorbacks and las-preds.
think a mirror list might work?
I m thinking like 5 las-razorbacks with watch master standing around for turn 1 boost. 1 corvus with dedicated kill team dropping something behind enemy line and doing damage.
In addition with 4 kill team with similar build and general purpose loadout. 1 kill team for dedicated CC.
Any ideas guys?
No on the competitive DW, they'd be much better if they actually had access to tech priests.
Best use for DW in my opinion is Marine Enforcers for Guard.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Yodhrin wrote: From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Yodhrin wrote: From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't mean using the actual specialist variant Kill Teams as intended, I mean folk spamming a normal Kill Team that's just Frag Cannons and AC terminators sort of thing. The same sort of mentality is cropping up with for example Tempestus where the go-to use for Command Squads is apparently as disposable plasmaspam units packed in three squads to a Valk.
I suppose I just had the naive hope that "matched play will be balanced" would mean you could build a thematic TAC army and whether or not you win would be down to how you directed your troops on the tabletop, rather than meaning "all hyper-gimmicky cheeselists will be roughly equivalent in power".
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Yodhrin wrote: From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't mean using the actual specialist variant Kill Teams as intended, I mean folk spamming a normal Kill Team that's just Frag Cannons and AC terminators sort of thing. The same sort of mentality is cropping up with for example Tempestus where the go-to use for Command Squads is apparently as disposable plasmaspam units packed in three squads to a Valk.
I suppose I just had the naive hope that "matched play will be balanced" would mean you could build a thematic TAC army and whether or not you win would be down to how you directed your troops on the tabletop, rather than meaning "all hyper-gimmicky cheeselists will be roughly equivalent in power".
Balance is a laugh.
To get proper balance on a game like 40k you'd need several number crunchers, a large number of properly capable rule lawyers and a large number of high level gamers as well as several months just to test and edit.
Even games with rapid releases like MtG struggle with balance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/30 08:17:44
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Still trying to figure out if I want a terminator with Assault cannon and powerfist/melta combo, or just run them as Assault cannon and power sword to be cheaper. what are your thoughts? cheaper sounds better, but being able to fire both the assault cannon and the melta sounds appealing too.
I've found the best thing for Deathwatch is to find a solid vehicle killing unit and spam Hellfire rounds on anything that doesn't identify itself as a vehicle.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/02 11:41:32
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
Cause of how you can pick what models take wounds/die first, I give most of my BS thunder hammers (have 3 attacks are the best for your "big melee weapons", them and the sergeant), moreover I have been doubling them up with combi-plasma's or combi-melta's etc (you want your big points toys on just a few model's to minimise points loss when soldiers in the unit die).
I dont mind Frag cannons but I think they need to be with certain units (eg shotguns or combi-flamers etc so can move and advance and still shoot if on foot etc or if in a unit that is leaving a corvus, even then is meh).
For same cost you can get 2xCombi-plasma's (you dont have to over charge or shoot both if dont want etc), they have great versatility, more potential damage at various ranges (espec if supported by a master). (+ many other combos at 30 points more viable). I still run them though but just saying if super competitive, other options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
conker249 wrote: Still trying to figure out if I want a terminator with Assault cannon and powerfist/melta combo, or just run them as Assault cannon and power sword to be cheaper. what are your thoughts? cheaper sounds better, but being able to fire both the assault cannon and the melta sounds appealing too.
1x Assault cannon & Power sword: 57
1x Assault cannon & Power fist/melta: 90
1x Storm bolter & Cyclone Missile Launcher, 1x Power sword: 88
Put last 1 in for comparison (another option if want a terminator at that cost). It all depends on the unit you are running him with, cant really give advice if don't know the rest of the unit (however, it is always better to condense points/fire power onto single models then spread it around with the new causality rules).
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/07/02 17:58:57
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters 20k Deathwatch 10k Sisters of Battle 3k Inquisition 4k Grey Knights 5k Imperial Guard 4k Harlequins 8k Tau
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
Power Sword and Bolt Pistol. I try to keep my generalist teams cheap but capable.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
Power Sword and Bolt Pistol. I try to keep my generalist teams cheap but capable.
Ok maybe I am wrong but here are my thoughts. If playing Pure DW they are very elite (even if minimilse points cost per soldier you will have a very small army in comparison to others). Pistol are useless if run a vet kill team with vanguards or bikers (as the guy said he was) because pistols only work on your shooting phase:
If he is running vanguard in a squad (with frag cannons and prob shooty termies (even if not to shooty) there is no point on putting pistols on anyone. From my interpretation (maybe wrong) pistols only work on your shooting phase (so must be in melee either the turn after being charged or you have charged, combated the enemy, the enemy then had there turn and you still in combat on yours and then can use a pistol.....for an elite army like DW your boned by that time. You can't waste all that time). If have a vanguard, would disengage in your movement phase and then shoot with all your guns/big guns at that unit or another. Can charge it with a different unit if the unit still is a threat. If you get charged and want to stay in melee is only time maybe viable, however, (though I would take a biker over termie even if worth 3 over 2 if running more melee, in a corvus can still run 6x vets, 1x vanguard, 1x biker and a hero) with a vanguard, frag cannon and termie (maybe ass cannon) you prob want to disengage.
However, all is dependent on what the complete unit is running, the army and their role etc. A unit that has a frag cannon (expensive) a vanguard and a termie means is either in a corvus/land raider (So the unit wants to get the job done), if foot slogging are going to be to expensive to be worth it. If he wants his BS to be super cheap I would run PS & boltgun.
I like to run my BS and Serg with the best melee weaps I can afford for that squad, because they will be the last units to die in the squad (they have the most attacks and LD). Moreover, I like to give them a combi-weap beacuse 1. still gives them special ammo and 2. gives them viability against most targets.
These are just my musings/ramblings, please offer your opinions if think I am wrong or can enlighten me to the value of pistols on a vet kill team that has a vanguard or a biker.
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters 20k Deathwatch 10k Sisters of Battle 3k Inquisition 4k Grey Knights 5k Imperial Guard 4k Harlequins 8k Tau
fr3ddy wrote: Anyone take a peak in the new imperial armor index yet? can deathwatch take anything from the imperial armor index?
RAW no, because the FW Index doesn't contain any wording that overrules the ridiculous list of restrictions in the GW Index.
I have a question actually - how would folk arm a Blackshield as part of a "generalist" squad(bolters with a smattering of power weapons, terminator, vanguard, frag cannon)? Most of the givens for arming CC models seem to have changed since 7th and it's the last model in the squad I've got to figure out.
Power Sword and Bolt Pistol. I try to keep my generalist teams cheap but capable.
Ok maybe I am wrong but here are my thoughts. If playing Pure DW they are very elite (even if minimilse points cost per soldier you will have a very small army in comparison to others). Pistol are useless if run a vet kill team with vanguards or bikers (as the guy said he was) because pistols only work on your shooting phase:
If he is running vanguard in a squad (with frag cannons and prob shooty termies (even if not to shooty) there is no point on putting pistols on anyone. From my interpretation (maybe wrong) pistols only work on your shooting phase (so must be in melee either the turn after being charged or you have charged, combated the enemy, the enemy then had there turn and you still in combat on yours and then can use a pistol.....for an elite army like DW your boned by that time. You can't waste all that time). If have a vanguard, would disengage in your movement phase and then shoot with all your guns/big guns at that unit or another. Can charge it with a different unit if the unit still is a threat. If you get charged and want to stay in melee is only time maybe viable, however, (though I would take a biker over termie even if worth 3 over 2 if running more melee, in a corvus can still run 6x vets, 1x vanguard, 1x biker and a hero) with a vanguard, frag cannon and termie (maybe ass cannon) you prob want to disengage.
However, all is dependent on what the complete unit is running, the army and their role etc. A unit that has a frag cannon (expensive) a vanguard and a termie means is either in a corvus/land raider (So the unit wants to get the job done), if foot slogging are going to be to expensive to be worth it. If he wants his BS to be super cheap I would run PS & boltgun.
I like to run my BS and Serg with the best melee weaps I can afford for that squad, because they will be the last units to die in the squad (they have the most attacks and LD). Moreover, I like to give them a combi-weap beacuse 1. still gives them special ammo and 2. gives them viability against most targets.
These are just my musings/ramblings, please offer your opinions if think I am wrong or can enlighten me to the value of pistols on a vet kill team that has a vanguard or a biker.
They're fair musings.
Personally I get value by going cheap and trying to get the most out of natural offerings like Specialised Ammo.
We don't need costly, special weapons to hunt MCs, our only need for that is vehicle killing.
The only other option I'd bother with on a generalist Black Shield is the Chainsword which offers an extra attack at no AP, good for when the enemy is packing ++ saves like Daemons and Storm Shields, ap modifiers won't help you but extra attacks will. Unless you're expecting absolutely every one of its turns to be spent outside of twelve inches of absolutely every enemy model and every charge this generalist team makes to be a Heroic Intervention coughing up no points for a Bolt Pistol means you can be involved up to twelve inches in the shooting phase, it's not like we have to charge what we shoot anymore or even shoot what the rest of the team shoots - for the most part my generalist teams are geared for laying down Specialised Ammo shots, twelve inches or less is a happy and so far common range to my Deathwatch Kill Teams.
If said Black Shield was part of my Bully Boys squad he'd be packing a pair of Lightning Claws.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Interesting perspectives thanks guys. For context, right now I'll be using a single generalist KT with a Librarian in a Blackstar, as part of an Ordo Xenos force with an Inquisitor & mostly Storm Troopers. The Storm Troopers will be in Chimeras, because despite how lacklustre they are Inquisitorial Storm Troopers go in Chimeras dagnabbit.
I'm mostly building them based on making them an interesting mix of "characters", but while I enjoy working within the fluff(after it's been suitably pruned to remove rubbish like post-Gathering Storm/Dark Imperium material) on the rare occasions I get to game these days it's usually pickup games against random folk I don't know, so I accept I have to make some concessions to the realities of the rules so long as I can avoid doing anything too "gamey".
Right now the KT consists of:
Librarian w/ Force Sword & DW Bolter.
Sergeant w/ Power Sword or 'Phase Blade & DW Bolter.
2x DW Vets w/ Chainsword & DW Bolter.
Vet w/ Power Sword & DW Bolter.
Vet w/ DW Stalker.
Vanguard w/ Chainsword & Plasma Pistol.
Vet w/ Frag Cannon
Terminator w/ Assault Cannon & Power Sword.
And then the Blackshield that I've yet to decide on. And if you think that's too fluffy, you should have seen it when I had an Ironwrought(homebrew IH successor) "breacher" with a Storm Shield and Shotgun in there, hah.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Pistols can be used outside of Melee range. You just have to choose to use either the Pistol or the other weapons, you can mix and match within an unit, but each model either fires one or the other.
Thematically the "specialist" teams work as well. One only need to imagine that the problem was big enough for a "squad" or "platoon" sized force to be sent, and the CO basically says " You 4, work with those two and get in that, and head over there" "You five go with Sgt Hand, and wait in the Tele chamber", etc.
For matched play, I prefer a TAC army list, but comprised of specialist teams
He's not "in" the team per se, but Librarians are on the list of permitted <Deathwatch> unit entries so I just made sure my KT would come to 11 transport capacity to leave room for the libby in the Blackstar.
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Yodhrin wrote: From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't mean using the actual specialist variant Kill Teams as intended, I mean folk spamming a normal Kill Team that's just Frag Cannons and AC terminators sort of thing. The same sort of mentality is cropping up with for example Tempestus where the go-to use for Command Squads is apparently as disposable plasmaspam units packed in three squads to a Valk.
I suppose I just had the naive hope that "matched play will be balanced" would mean you could build a thematic TAC army and whether or not you win would be down to how you directed your troops on the tabletop, rather than meaning "all hyper-gimmicky cheeselists will be roughly equivalent in power".
I mean, in tournaments you're going to see min-maxed lists, that's a fact of life. Personally, my Deathwatch (who are admittedly a fairly minor allied component I add to Guard) I run in a roughly melee/ranged split, two squads of five sharing one Drop Pod. My fluff is that the squads are actually one killteam, but that the fire support doesn't really engage in close melee because it would be foolish to do so.
I run 1 squad with 2x Frag Cannons, 2x Combi-meltas (one combi-melta guy has a Storm Shield), one standard boltgun. Second squad 1 shotgun/shield, 1 powerfist/shotgun (I believe this build is still legal, but depends on reading and if it does get FAQed I'll have to rebuild this guy), 1 HTH Blackshield, 1 Power sword/Boltgun, 1 chainsword/boltgun. The weird loadouts are in part that 5/10 are the original DW:O snapfit guys, who I have only been able to slightly modify.
Just recently I played them against a fairly nasty Sisters list (celestine+gals, melta dominions, double tapping act of faith Retributors rerolling 1s to hit, organ tanks) and the deathwatch were 100% the star of the show, dropping in and almost entirely blowing away an organ tank and a squad of retributors and then continuing to smash things up. Shooty squad died immediately, but punchy squad kept fighting until turn 4.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
From what I've been reading here and over on B&C, a lot of people seem to be favouring very "gamey" compositions for Kill Teams, focusing down very tightly on a specific role and gearing them accordingly.
Are more general, "fluffy" compositions just no good then? By which I mean, a variety of equipment with a bias towards bolters and a generalist/adaptable posture on the tabletop.
No.
They're good and they are adaptable, the problem is that there are things that fall outside of the specialised ammo's ability to deal with truly effectively.
Most vehicles for example will take wounds on a 5+ from a Bolt weapon, Deathwatch don't have access to an aura buff that re-rolls to-wound meaning it's never going to get any better and if you don't roll the fives the Bolters are irrelevant.
Specialising the Kill Teams up for HWeapon Terminators means you can drop the team and a Captain near the target you want to evaporate and remove it.
Same with Bikes or Vanguard, both have the mobility to seek out their preferred targets and waste them - footsloggers like Termies slow them down.
I don't mean using the actual specialist variant Kill Teams as intended, I mean folk spamming a normal Kill Team that's just Frag Cannons and AC terminators sort of thing. The same sort of mentality is cropping up with for example Tempestus where the go-to use for Command Squads is apparently as disposable plasmaspam units packed in three squads to a Valk.
I suppose I just had the naive hope that "matched play will be balanced" would mean you could build a thematic TAC army and whether or not you win would be down to how you directed your troops on the tabletop, rather than meaning "all hyper-gimmicky cheeselists will be roughly equivalent in power".
I mean, in tournaments you're going to see min-maxed lists, that's a fact of life. Personally, my Deathwatch (who are admittedly a fairly minor allied component I add to Guard) I run in a roughly melee/ranged split, two squads of five sharing one Drop Pod. My fluff is that the squads are actually one killteam, but that the fire support doesn't really engage in close melee because it would be foolish to do so.
I run 1 squad with 2x Frag Cannons, 2x Combi-meltas (one combi-melta guy has a Storm Shield), one standard boltgun. Second squad 1 shotgun/shield, 1 powerfist/shotgun (I believe this build is still legal, but depends on reading and if it does get FAQed I'll have to rebuild this guy), 1 HTH Blackshield, 1 Power sword/Boltgun, 1 chainsword/boltgun. The weird loadouts are in part that 5/10 are the original DW:O snapfit guys, who I have only been able to slightly modify.
Just recently I played them against a fairly nasty Sisters list (celestine+gals, melta dominions, double tapping act of faith Retributors rerolling 1s to hit, organ tanks) and the deathwatch were 100% the star of the show, dropping in and almost entirely blowing away an organ tank and a squad of retributors and then continuing to smash things up. Shooty squad died immediately, but punchy squad kept fighting until turn 4.
My list that absolutely cleaned up at my last tournament was:
HQ Watch Captain+ Jump Pack
Librarian+ Force Sword
TROOP
4x Vets+ VVets+ BShield+ Shotgun
4x Vets+ VVets+ Bshield+ Shotgun
4x Vets+ VVets+ Shotgun
3x Terminator+ Paired Claws+ BShield+ Biker
Outrider
HQ Librarian+ Force Sword
Fast Attack
5x Biker
5x Biker
5x Biker
Most other lists used small numbers of vehicles and really did not appreciate their biggest and baddest being wounded on a 2+ by Specialised Ammo, I got Psychic happy against the Daemons and Tyrannids and nulled a few units' Invul saves.
The Blackstar kept the enemy vehicles in line.
We're better at killing Daemons than Grey Knights.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
~4000 pts Deathwatch
~4000 pts ORKS ORKS ORKS
~1000 pts Sphess Mahreen
~2000 pts Admech 
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them. 
Black Templars 4000 
.