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Isn't there some tactics, strategy, movement involved with avoiding the assault scrum.

Some. But the onus of having to have strategy and tactics is on the army NOT landing and assaulting.

The importance of the movement phase, and of maneuver in general, seem to have been lessened overall.

I share your suspicions Auticus, and I'll leave at that.

I wonder if the dev team thinks that turn one everything should be shooting and getting stuck in, rather than having a turn for re-positioning and main movement.
Possibly over reacting to how slow some units would be previously, even with all the rules trying to speed them up.

 auticus wrote:

Isn't there some tactics, strategy, movement involved with avoiding the assault scrum.

Some. But the onus of having to have strategy and tactics is on the army NOT landing and assaulting.

The importance of the movement phase, and of maneuver in general, seem to have been lessened overall.

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say. The Onus of the strategy is on deploying in a manner where you don't get anything important assaulted, if you go first maneuvering in a way to diminish it even further. Then using movement to keep away from assault while doing your damage.

What has changed is that this used to be swapped. Shooting armies did not need to care much about movement, while assault units needed to jump through a ton of hoops to be effective. Now they are more equal and both will need to use movement (and movement abilities like deepstrike) to decide the outcome of the game. A space marine army with a few scout squads can essentially render your deepstrike alpha strike completely null by controlling your deployment zone. I mean 2x 5 man scout squad can essentially force you to drop in your own deployment zone if you want to drop turn 1. If you are dropping after turn 1 you have already given up the alpha strike and the rest of your opponents force can further deny you good position. Eldar can do the same with Rangers, Tau can do similar with Kroot Squads, and have For the greater good (supporting fire) . No other army should really care much because they have good chaff units and assault units of their own. If you want to try and alpha assault my orks feel free...

I dont see it being any worse than AoS is currently,,and I just came out of a small event a couple days ago were I faced 2 Ironjaw lists that were in my face turn one with my Bonesplitterz,,both still close games with a win and a loss.Of course thats probably not a good indication of the potential power of a nu40k alpha strike but still,I dont think alpha lists will break the game.

I think that those attempting to directly beatdown an opponents army from the get go as opposed to playing more to the scenario objectives will end up on the loosing end with this ruleset more often then not.

Apple fox wrote:
I wonder if the dev team thinks that turn one everything should be shooting and getting stuck in, rather than having a turn for re-positioning and main movement.
Possibly over reacting to how slow some units would be previously, even with all the rules trying to speed them up.

From watching games on Warhammer TV last week, they absolutely seem to be getting fully engaged on turn 2, sometimes turn 1. Before games felt like turn 1 was a little bit of fire and movement, turn 2 was full fire and preparing for charge, and turn 3 was fully engaged. It feels like things have been sped up a turn. Not necessarily the end of the movement phase (although, sure, it's a different phase now... especially since you can withdraw from combat) but 'the movement turn' certainly seems to have been reduced.

 auticus wrote:

Isn't there some tactics, strategy, movement involved with avoiding the assault scrum.

Some. But the onus of having to have strategy and tactics is on the army NOT landing and assaulting.

The importance of the movement phase, and of maneuver in general, seem to have been lessened overall.

It doesn't take many units/models to make your deployment zone impenetrable to DS, if you go off diagonals, two models will cover 36x18 area, so six models will cover 36x54 or 18x92, both of which are overkill. Single models are easy enough to hide behind LOS blocking, so those 6 Acolytes, at 48 points, can deny your entire deployment zone from DS. Have a few spare and you can basically foot slog 6" at a time up the field, denying any DS opportunities behind you quite easily. With a faster army, say all bikes, you can make the entire board DS proof in Turn 3...

Course list countering is quite easy, what those acolytes are going to do against a non-DS army is questionable...

 Zande4 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Alpha strike deepstrikers fall flat on the face the moment they meet bauble-wrap.

100% agree. Bubble wrap is so strong and important for shooty armies now.

I'm wracking my brain on how to over come it myself with an Alpha Strike Nid list using triple Trygon primes joined by mass Hormagaunts

Hormagaunts pile in and consolidate 6 inches now.

You do both before your opponent does anything with a unit. That means, as long as another units model is the closest enemy unit you can pile into them as well.

Fall Back greatly changes the dynamics of combat. Movement strategy is certainly not going the way of the Dodo, except insofar as 40k is not chess.

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

I grew up in an era where what pulled me into wargames was the maneuver. There were no games where you started right off in combat. If there were, I'd probably not be here today because that doesn't interest me. My first real wargame was a version of Advanced Squad Leader. After that it was Battletech and DBA.

I played a null deploy alpha strike army in the past when that was a thing. I played a rhino rush army in the past when that was a thing. I did so because... it was very easy and required no real strategy or tactics other than knowing which target units were the biggest threat, and those were what you pointed at and removed.

I also understand deployment and "bubble-wrap". However my post is not "I can't understand how to counter alpha strike armies". My post is "RIP Movement Phase".

If you can just deploy and charge without needing to worry about maneuver, the movement phase's importance has been lessened. IMO greatly lessened.

That IMO removes a great chunk of strategy and tactics and chucks them out the window. The strategy switches from moving and counter-moving to assault army figures out what armies he can destroy in one turn by pointing at it, and defending army figures out how to bubble wrap.

Then assault army figures out how to assault in waves.

Then defending army figures out how to take as many guns as possible and hope volume of dice wins the day.

While this can be entertaining and fun, its no longer a game where maneuver is really that important. There is some importance, but its very minor.

This was the state of the game during rhino rush and when alpha assault was legal as well.

I will remain suspicious that the maneuver phase of the game is largely an after-thought now and watch reports and what not for the remainder of the year before I really put any more emotional investment into the game to see where things are after the min/max builds start becoming fleshed out and a dominant thing in my area.

I know how to bubble wrap armies. I'm just not interested in that style of game.

 auticus wrote:

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

I grew up in an era where what pulled me into wargames was the maneuver. There were no games where you started right off in combat. If there were, I'd probably not be here today because that doesn't interest me. My first real wargame was a version of Advanced Squad Leader. After that it was Battletech and DBA.

I played a null deploy alpha strike army in the past when that was a thing. I played a rhino rush army in the past when that was a thing. I did so because... it was very easy and required no real strategy or tactics other than knowing which target units were the biggest threat, and those were what you pointed at and removed.

I also understand deployment and "bubble-wrap". However my post is not "I can't understand how to counter alpha strike armies". My post is "RIP Movement Phase".

If you can just deploy and charge without needing to worry about maneuver, the movement phase's importance has been lessened. IMO greatly lessened.

That IMO removes a great chunk of strategy and tactics and chucks them out the window. The strategy switches from moving and counter-moving to assault army figures out what armies he can destroy in one turn by pointing at it, and defending army figures out how to bubble wrap.

Then assault army figures out how to assault in waves.

Then defending army figures out how to take as many guns as possible and hope volume of dice wins the day.

While this can be entertaining and fun, its no longer a game where maneuver is really that important. There is some importance, but its very minor.

This was the state of the game during rhino rush and when alpha assault was legal as well.

I will remain suspicious that the maneuver phase of the game is largely an after-thought now and watch reports and what not for the remainder of the year before I really put any more emotional investment into the game to see where things are after the min/max builds start becoming fleshed out and a dominant thing in my area.

I know how to bubble wrap armies. I'm just not interested in that style of game.

To be clear then you have never liked 40k? Because what you state has never existed in this game. For me now there is more maneuver than the past several editions because assault is such a threat. You will need to block with units, then escape, set up assaults and counter assaults etc. The past 3 editions have largely been no different from this except that because you could shoot from turn 1, and assaults did not happen until turn 2 or 3, shooting was far more powerful and you could just sit and shoot all day. I think you are largely over-rating the reliability of being able to drop in and charge for most armies. Especially with "bubble wrap" (which amounts to perhaps having a single infiltrating unit or 2).

Thats what happens when the solution in people's mind to the useless that was meele in the past is making 1st turn charges viable as a tactic.

We are gonna houserule reserves to not come before turn 2. So, no turn 1 charges.

But the ideal solution should be:
-Make meele armies toughter and faster but not so tought that they are inmortal or not so fast that they are in meele without having to move for the battle.
-Make shooting powerfull but not as powerfull that he can just eliminate half of a enemy army in the first turn of shooting.

If you can just point and click your assaults, that means you don't need to maneuver to accomplish your goal. You just drop your units down and say "and go". The onus of maneuver and tactics is on your opponent, not on the assaulting player, who can just use a laser pointer for the most part.

If it turns out to be a couple units doing it, thats one thing. But if there's one thing I know I can count on with the community its that everything will be extreme.

 Galas wrote:
Thats what happens when the solution in people's mind to the useless that was meele in the past is making 1st turn charges viable as a tactic.

We are gonna houserule reserves to not come before turn 2. So, no turn 1 charges.

But the ideal solution should be:
-Make meele armies toughter and faster but not so tought that they are inmortal or not so fast that they are in meele without having to move for the battle.
-Make shooting powerfull but not as powerfull that he can just eliminate half of a enemy army in the first turn of shooting.

I think what they have done is better than what you suggest. I think people should need to adjust to the possibility of turn 1 charges. If you eliminate them, you also then need to eliminate falling back from combat and overwatch.

We had an edition of
Super powerful shooting, and immortal combat units. That is what happens when you artificially restrict when assaults can happen. Units need to survive in the open for multiple turns, against entire armies of shooting. Making armies tougher but not too tough is hard.

I think the idea of risky turn 1 charges is fine when those charges need to take overwatch, have at best a 50-50 shot at a charge, then get shot again by the opponent on their turn, then if they are still alive, eat overwatch again.

I will never understand the thinking that Turn 1 shooting is fine, but assault should not be allowed.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
If you can just point and click your assaults, that means you don't need to maneuver to accomplish your goal. You just drop your units down and say "and go". The onus of maneuver and tactics is on your opponent, not on the assaulting player, who can just use a laser pointer for the most part.

If it turns out to be a couple units doing it, thats one thing. But if there's one thing I know I can count on with the community its that everything will be extreme.

Why is it a problem that the onus of maneuver and tactics is on the opponent, which when they succeed shifts the onus to adapt back the other way. I think extreme deepstrike assault armies will be noob stomper armies. Against good players you won't get a great target to assault.

These concerns are the same as the AoS crowd that did not understand fall back and assault movement.

If you watch two inexperienced players in AoS they always hit in a giant blob in the middle because neither realizes you can fall back around a unit, or that you can position in a way to prevent multi-charges or to tie up enemy units.

The movement phase just became MORE complicated not simplified, if you place your gunlines too close together you will get sucked into a combat you didn't want. If you assault a unit that can survive and fall back you just got stuck in the open. If you spread out too much a unit that just assaulted you can "fall back" and swing around you and take an objective.

Just my two cents.

Breng77 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thats what happens when the solution in people's mind to the useless that was meele in the past is making 1st turn charges viable as a tactic.

We are gonna houserule reserves to not come before turn 2. So, no turn 1 charges.

But the ideal solution should be:
-Make meele armies toughter and faster but not so tought that they are inmortal or not so fast that they are in meele without having to move for the battle.
-Make shooting powerfull but not as powerfull that he can just eliminate half of a enemy army in the first turn of shooting.

I think what they have done is better than what you suggest. I think people should need to adjust to the possibility of turn 1 charges. If you eliminate them, you also then need to eliminate falling back from combat and overwatch.

We had an edition of
Super powerful shooting, and immortal combat units. That is what happens when you artificially restrict when assaults can happen. Units need to survive in the open for multiple turns, against entire armies of shooting. Making armies tougher but not too tough is hard.

I think the idea of risky turn 1 charges is fine when those charges need to take overwatch, have at best a 50-50 shot at a charge, then get shot again by the opponent on their turn, then if they are still alive, eat overwatch again.

I will never understand the thinking that Turn 1 shooting is fine, but assault should not be allowed.

in response to your last sentence, Both needs to be balanced. There was way to much First turn shooting before, and it may swing to far to just making the game to lethal to fast.

But what was really needed for a lot of the CC armys, was way better support to get them there.
Some of them would effectively just run and hope in some cases, with little to do to threaten a ranged army enough to give them reasonable choices.

GW do not just need to change rules, but they do need to think how these factions interact with each other and with themselves internally.

I think deepstrike assault is that support for most assault armies. I see it as an early way to get rid of bubble wrap units. Before I needed to spend a turn or 2 getting to the bubble wrap, then eat that, then if I still had time, assault the rest of the army. I agree with some more support, but that is hard to do, if you give them super durable transports, that are affordable and allow direct assault, or some other durability buff, which lead to deathstars in 6th and 7th.

Essentially if what I do is assault, my threat to you is also going to be an assault. Now maybe what units can assault should be more limited, but I think things will be fine.

Breng77 wrote:
I think deepstrike assault is that support for most assault armies. I see it as an early way to get rid of bubble wrap units. Before I needed to spend a turn or 2 getting to the bubble wrap, then eat that, then if I still had time, assault the rest of the army. I agree with some more support, but that is hard to do, if you give them super durable transports, that are affordable and allow direct assault, or some other durability buff, which lead to deathstars in 6th and 7th.

Essentially if what I do is assault, my threat to you is also going to be an assault. Now maybe what units can assault should be more limited, but I think things will be fine.

I Actually agree with you But it would still be nice IF GW Design would Give it some effort, Since they sucked before at it.
The main one for me was daemons, To many take this if you want to win Otherwise roll dice at start of game if its under 3 probably isnt worth playing that one.

But Support is way more than Just durable transports and buffs, Its also the ability to take units that can threaten as you opponents do, even if it is less than a full shooting army.
But it also means creating a game that encourages shooting factions to take something to mitigate those close combat in some way, rather than ignoring it.
So far the Rules probably do this much better in 8th So happy there, but some more thought still needs to go into the factions.

The alternative is marching across the board in a straight line, because terrain does nothing anyway. So it's not like deep strike changes much in the way of tactical depth.

Breng77 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thats what happens when the solution in people's mind to the useless that was meele in the past is making 1st turn charges viable as a tactic.

We are gonna houserule reserves to not come before turn 2. So, no turn 1 charges.

But the ideal solution should be:
-Make meele armies toughter and faster but not so tought that they are inmortal or not so fast that they are in meele without having to move for the battle.
-Make shooting powerfull but not as powerfull that he can just eliminate half of a enemy army in the first turn of shooting.

I think what they have done is better than what you suggest. I think people should need to adjust to the possibility of turn 1 charges. If you eliminate them, you also then need to eliminate falling back from combat and overwatch.

We had an edition of
Super powerful shooting, and immortal combat units. That is what happens when you artificially restrict when assaults can happen. Units need to survive in the open for multiple turns, against entire armies of shooting. Making armies tougher but not too tough is hard.

I think the idea of risky turn 1 charges is fine when those charges need to take overwatch, have at best a 50-50 shot at a charge, then get shot again by the opponent on their turn, then if they are still alive, eat overwatch again.

I will never understand the thinking that Turn 1 shooting is fine, but assault should not be allowed.

Personally I have always speak again'st turn 1 shooting. Turn 1 should be 100% manouvering and maybe some shooting in the form of Bassilisk and long range weaponry. Alpha Strikes aren't funny.

And the problem with assault is that, once units are engaged, players have 0 choice. It becomes auto-mode. In the other hand, shooting is a more engaging and interactive gameplay.

 Galas wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thats what happens when the solution in people's mind to the useless that was meele in the past is making 1st turn charges viable as a tactic.

We are gonna houserule reserves to not come before turn 2. So, no turn 1 charges.

But the ideal solution should be:
-Make meele armies toughter and faster but not so tought that they are inmortal or not so fast that they are in meele without having to move for the battle.
-Make shooting powerfull but not as powerfull that he can just eliminate half of a enemy army in the first turn of shooting.

I think what they have done is better than what you suggest. I think people should need to adjust to the possibility of turn 1 charges. If you eliminate them, you also then need to eliminate falling back from combat and overwatch.

We had an edition of
Super powerful shooting, and immortal combat units. That is what happens when you artificially restrict when assaults can happen. Units need to survive in the open for multiple turns, against entire armies of shooting. Making armies tougher but not too tough is hard.

I think the idea of risky turn 1 charges is fine when those charges need to take overwatch, have at best a 50-50 shot at a charge, then get shot again by the opponent on their turn, then if they are still alive, eat overwatch again.

I will never understand the thinking that Turn 1 shooting is fine, but assault should not be allowed.

Personally I have always speak again'st turn 1 shooting. Turn 1 should be 100% manouvering and maybe some shooting in the form of Bassilisk and long range weaponry. Alpha Strikes aren't funny.

And the problem with assault is that, once units are engaged, players have 0 choice. It becomes auto-mode. In the other hand, shooting is a more engaging and interactive gameplay.

I feel that now that we have alternating combat activation and fall back the opposite is actually true. The Assault portion of the game is more interactive than shooting by a lot IMO. I have never felt that shooting is a very engaging part of the game. In 8th if we start with the charge phase, we have the choice about whether or not to assault (this often involves some risk, unlike shooting), then overwatch (engagement by the other player), then the charge itself with positioning, setting up pile in moves etc. Then the fight phase, we have a charging unit attack, then potentially a command point spend to interrupt if there are other units that have charged, once all charge attacks are made, we have decisions for players to make about ongoing combat activations etc.

As for turn 1 shooting. That would be fine, but it would require a rewrite of the entire game, and a change in table size to work. Too many guns have 36" + range, which essentially guarantees first turn shooting, throw in most guns being 18"+ in range it is very easy to get in range even with average mobility. Unless we had much more abstract terrain rules, or no LOS across the table turn one shooting will be common and plentiful. Also so long as any units exist that can shoot turn 1 unless they are limited, or risky players will just spam those units.

 Galas wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thats what happens when the solution in people's mind to the useless that was meele in the past is making 1st turn charges viable as a tactic.

We are gonna houserule reserves to not come before turn 2. So, no turn 1 charges.

But the ideal solution should be:
-Make meele armies toughter and faster but not so tought that they are inmortal or not so fast that they are in meele without having to move for the battle.
-Make shooting powerfull but not as powerfull that he can just eliminate half of a enemy army in the first turn of shooting.

I think what they have done is better than what you suggest. I think people should need to adjust to the possibility of turn 1 charges. If you eliminate them, you also then need to eliminate falling back from combat and overwatch.

We had an edition of
Super powerful shooting, and immortal combat units. That is what happens when you artificially restrict when assaults can happen. Units need to survive in the open for multiple turns, against entire armies of shooting. Making armies tougher but not too tough is hard.

I think the idea of risky turn 1 charges is fine when those charges need to take overwatch, have at best a 50-50 shot at a charge, then get shot again by the opponent on their turn, then if they are still alive, eat overwatch again.

I will never understand the thinking that Turn 1 shooting is fine, but assault should not be allowed.

Personally I have always speak again'st turn 1 shooting. Turn 1 should be 100% manouvering and maybe some shooting in the form of Bassilisk and long range weaponry. Alpha Strikes aren't funny.

And the problem with assault is that, once units are engaged, players have 0 choice. It becomes auto-mode. In the other hand, shooting is a more engaging and interactive gameplay.

That's not true at all. Activation order, withdrawing, counter-assaults, pile-in and consolidation decisions are all choices that players make during Assault. And that's ignoring the decisions that take place prior to engagement. I could just as easily make the case that Shooting isn't interactive, since once you're in weapon range all you do is point and click (even though you obviously make decisions about target priority and such).

Yeah, sorry. I was talking about 7th edition and the others. Meele in 8th is much more reactive and engaging than before.

And I'm glad about that!

theocracity wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Thats what happens when the solution in people's mind to the useless that was meele in the past is making 1st turn charges viable as a tactic.

We are gonna houserule reserves to not come before turn 2. So, no turn 1 charges.

But the ideal solution should be:
-Make meele armies toughter and faster but not so tought that they are inmortal or not so fast that they are in meele without having to move for the battle.
-Make shooting powerfull but not as powerfull that he can just eliminate half of a enemy army in the first turn of shooting.

I think what they have done is better than what you suggest. I think people should need to adjust to the possibility of turn 1 charges. If you eliminate them, you also then need to eliminate falling back from combat and overwatch.

We had an edition of
Super powerful shooting, and immortal combat units. That is what happens when you artificially restrict when assaults can happen. Units need to survive in the open for multiple turns, against entire armies of shooting. Making armies tougher but not too tough is hard.

I think the idea of risky turn 1 charges is fine when those charges need to take overwatch, have at best a 50-50 shot at a charge, then get shot again by the opponent on their turn, then if they are still alive, eat overwatch again.

I will never understand the thinking that Turn 1 shooting is fine, but assault should not be allowed.

Personally I have always speak again'st turn 1 shooting. Turn 1 should be 100% manouvering and maybe some shooting in the form of Bassilisk and long range weaponry. Alpha Strikes aren't funny.

And the problem with assault is that, once units are engaged, players have 0 choice. It becomes auto-mode. In the other hand, shooting is a more engaging and interactive gameplay.

That's not true at all. Activation order, withdrawing, counter-assaults, pile-in and consolidation decisions are all choices that players make during Assault. And that's ignoring the decisions that take place prior to engagement. I could just as easily make the case that Shooting isn't interactive, since once you're in weapon range all you do is point and click (even though you obviously make decisions about target priority and such).

Yup, I'm trying to think of interactive decisions that occur in shooting that don't also occur in assault. If you include the charge phase I cannot think of any. The only decisions your opponent gets to make during shooting involve which models to assign wounds to. A shooting vs shooting battle may involve some play in the movement phase to try to get the superior positioning, but this is also true for assault armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, sorry. I was talking about 7th edition and the others. Meele in 8th is much more reactive and engaging than before.

And I'm glad about that!

Yes in 7th unless you had hit and run, melee was largely just roll dice according to prescribed order by initiative.

First you have to realize that there are two types of lists. Static and mobile. Some army's default to one or the other. For static armies deployment trumps movement. Generally speaking they are trading duribility and buffing for speed. Mobile armys are more forgiving on deployment, but sacrifice buffs for that threat bubble. 8th has made this even more noticable by getting rid of everything moving 6" and with falling back and having overwatch and multihit flamers.

So static lists are going to be tougher as they will have overlapping buffs and (generally) better weapon options for overwatch. Nids can actually gunline really well if we want to.

Mobile lists are all about choosing where to attack. Bringing overwhelming number if attacks to a weak point. That can be CC or shooting.

Now if your playing a static army then movement phase doesn't mean much. Because you probably moving things as a block or just shuffling around units. Mobile armies will be zipping around trying to exploit things though.

Now that's not to say there won't be static elements in a mobile army or mobile ones in a static Army. That's just balanced list building.

But I think a lot of people will be in unhappy because in 7th everything was slower. The speed of the game is slower. Most of the units were slower. But you ended up seeing that the meta got dominated by fast armies. You also saw a whole sections of codexes that nobody took because they didn't have that speed or the range.

Sisters can do it.

Act of Faith on Seraphim to move then 12" at the start of the turn, move them another 12" in the movement phase, they're now in Hand Flamer/Inferno Pistol range [of which they carry 4], and easy charge range, they shoot, charge what's left, then Act of Faith on their next turn to shoot their pistols again before the shooting phase to try to wipe out the unit they were in combat with so they can move 12", shoot, then charge again.

The problem is only one squad [and Celestine, who has to be with them for it to work] can be doing this at a time, since they will outrun Imagifiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

Personally I have always speak again'st turn 1 shooting. Turn 1 should be 100% manouvering and maybe some shooting in the form of Bassilisk and long range weaponry. Alpha Strikes aren't funny.

And the problem with assault is that, once units are engaged, players have 0 choice. It becomes auto-mode. In the other hand, shooting is a more engaging and interactive gameplay.

There's no 1st turn shooting in Dropzone Commander, and I dislike that fact. It feel like an extended deployment phase, like the battle hasn't started.

 auticus wrote:
If you can just point and click your assaults, that means you don't need to maneuver to accomplish your goal. You just drop your units down and say "and go". The onus of maneuver and tactics is on your opponent, not on the assaulting player, who can just use a laser pointer for the most part.

If it turns out to be a couple units doing it, thats one thing. But if there's one thing I know I can count on with the community its that everything will be extreme.

You and everyone complaining about turn one assaults are still in the 7th mindset. No, it isn't as simple as point and clicking assaults, you still have to roll to make it in after taking overwatch. Yes, you do need to maneuver to accomplish your goal because a smart player will only let you assault their chaff unit, then fall back with that unit and shoot you to bits. Honestly you need to play and watch a few more games of 8th to understand that alpha striking isn't going to be super powerful due to transport costs and cheap chaff units in the way. You will have to account for it and play smart but it isn't difficult to do that with practice.

The worst you'll see is maybe two drop pods with some terminators dropping in and shooting up your front line, maybe assaulting right after. But honestly they'll be opening themselves up to be shot to hell and back or counter-assaulted right after. If you think turn one assaulting is brainless you haven't played enough games of 8th or your opponents are terrible.

Well turn one assaulting in AOS and turn one assaulting in previous editions of the game was certainly brainless. Thats what I'm going off of with my opinion here.

 auticus wrote:
Well turn one assaulting in AOS and turn one assaulting in previous editions of the game was certainly brainless. Thats what I'm going off of with my opinion here.

So completely different games? It seems to me that 8th has enough differences to both those things to be decidedly different.

Hence the "?" in the subject title. It is a question as opposed to a statement of fact.